This Wild And Crazy World
 
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    This Wild And Crazy World

    Dunno if I can do this, but if I don't try it I won't learn anything. So here goes nothing. Hello everyone I'm here to advertise my newly self-published manga-esque comic-book titled "This Wild And Crazy World."

    "This Wild And Crazy World." Is a wild action oriented tale about two teenagers named Kenny and Amy who try to find their place in a world filled with aliens, monsters, angels, and various other worldly beings. All while engaging in a romantic relationship that leaves Kenny with a sense of uncertainty.

    You find it on this page: http://www.lulu.com/shop/nb-yomi/thi...-21760175.html All purchases will be made on lulu.com. Thank you for time and I look forward to the feedback.

    The following images are one of the heroines, Brittany fighting off monster and a promotional poster.


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    Last edited by Sardansson; August 18th, 2014 at 05:06 AM.
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  3. #2
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    Your link does not seem to work.

    You might get a better turnout if you posted some teaser images along with the text snippet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arenhaus View Post
    Your link does not seem to work.

    You might get a better turnout if you posted some teaser images along with the text snippet.
    Thanks for the advice. And I fixed the link.

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    Are you serious?

    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggeraz View Post
    Are you serious?
    Yep... Wouldn't have made this thread if I wasn't...

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    Well since you are serious and wanted feedback i am not gonna sugarcoat it for you, your 'manga-esque' comic book looks absolutely terrible. Not bad like, it needs some polishing in certain areas -bad, but bad like, you don't know how to draw -bad.
    The panels you shared show that you lack the skill and experience in drawing that would be necessary to draw a decent comic book. It's devoid of pretty much anything i'd expect from a comic book like this, correct anatomy, good composition, a compelling sense of motion and dynamic and so on. And storywise you just took the well known 'young teenagers have to fight monstas + romance'- formular that 88.9993% of every manga/anime in existence uses, instead of doing something original.

    If you are ready to create something beyond badly drawn MS paint comics i would recommend you to learn drawing. For an absolute beginner i suggest to read Andrew Loomis' "fun with a pencil" as a starting point. After that you might keep yourself busy with something more specific of the fundamentals like basic perspective: recommended here are Andrew Loomis' "Successful Drawing" or Scott Robertsons "How to draw".

    There is good reading matter on pretty much any topic of drawing and painting in this fine list. http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...s-Reading-List

    Summarized: you can't draw a good comic without knowing the fundamentals.

    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant.

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  9. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggeraz View Post
    Well since you are serious and wanted feedback i am not gonna sugarcoat it for you, your 'manga-esque' comic book looks absolutely terrible. Not bad like, it needs some polishing in certain areas -bad, but bad like, you don't know how to draw -bad.
    The panels you shared show that you lack the skill and experience in drawing that would be necessary to draw a decent comic book. It's devoid of pretty much anything i'd expect from a comic book like this, correct anatomy, good composition, a compelling sense of motion and dynamic and so on. And storywise you just took the well known 'young teenagers have to fight monstas + romance'- formular that 88.9993% of every manga/anime in existence uses, instead of doing something original.

    If you are ready to create something beyond badly drawn MS paint comics i would recommend you to learn drawing. For an absolute beginner i suggest to read Andrew Loomis' "fun with a pencil" as a starting point. After that you might keep yourself busy with something more specific of the fundamentals like basic perspective: recommended here are Andrew Loomis' "Successful Drawing" or Scott Robertsons "How to draw".

    There is good reading matter on pretty much any topic of drawing and painting in this fine list. http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...s-Reading-List

    Summarized: you can't draw a good comic without knowing the fundamentals.
    Thanks for the feedback, though I need to mention this. I know the fundamentals of drawing, after all I've taken art class in high school was taught loosely by my father, and looked up tutorials online and bought some how-to-draw-manga books. My problem has been patience... Right now I'm trying to earn money so I find my own place and leave my parents. I've been at that for six years now... I'll still utilize your feedback though since I'm also working on the first three volumes of a Halloween themed series I've been writing since 2009, but this? It's too late for this first issue

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardansson View Post
    Thanks for the feedback, though I need to mention this. I know the fundamentals of drawing, after all I've taken art class in high school was taught loosely by my father, and looked up tutorials online and bought some how-to-draw-manga books. My problem has been patience... Right now I'm trying to earn money so I find my own place and leave my parents. I've been at that for six years now... I'll still utilize your feedback though since I'm also working on the first three volumes of a Halloween themed series I've been writing since 2009, but this? It's too late for this first issue
    You may think you know the fundamentals but your work tells exactly the opposite story, or you have an odd understanding of the word. And let me tell you, you don't lern the fundamentals by visiting one class or buying shitty how-to-draw-manga books, but by constantly studying and practicing over months and years.

    Don't be naive, just compare what you did with a manga that has a decent artist behind it. Or better, let me show you what i mean. First we have your attempt at manga:
    Name:  pageall.jpg
Views: 407
Size:  130.1 KB

    And here we have a real manga that shows that the artist is capable of drawing and creating something that is pleasing to the eye:
    Name:  berserk-28419.jpg
Views: 433
Size:  233.1 KB
    Name:  bers.jpg
Views: 422
Size:  124.5 KB
    As you can see the author and illustrator has a basic understanding of proportion, composition, perspective and rendering. And let me be so bold and hypothesize that he did NOT learn these by reading a 2$ how-to-draw-awsum-manga book but rather by learning how to draw in general.
    On the short call you're better off taking a minimum wage job than wasting your time drawing manga comics and trying to sell them. Even good artist and comic book illustrators struggle to make a living out of drawing and you are a world away from being a good artist.

    My apologies for sounding so harsh but you will waste your precious time trying to do something you don't understand. And if you want to be a comic book artist study the fundamentals.

    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant.

    Sketchbook
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardansson View Post
    I know the fundamentals of drawing, after all I've taken art class in high school was taught loosely by my father, and looked up tutorials online and bought some how-to-draw-manga books.
    Um... sorry, but you don't. High schools seldom teach the real drawing fundamentals, either, and buying books does not equal learning. You get points for effort and perseverance, but you need to learn to draw if you want to be competitive.

    If you have really managed to draw an entire book, no matter what the drawing quality, I'd say that your problem isn't patience, it's ability to see as an artist. You are imitating things poorly, instead of creating things.

    So get "Successful Drawing" by Loomis and practice structural drawing in pencil.

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    Hey friend, I think I know how you might be feeling after some of these comments, and while I by no means do I want to undermine anything anyone has said, I reckon you need a little sugar, no?

    First of all, I want to say "good for you," for going ahead and publishing your work, that's a first step it takes many professionals in many fields a while to build up to.
    Second, it has to be admitted that your work could use some work.
    I'm not saying you're "bad" because bad implies it's something fundamental about you, but I am saying that you're inexperienced. That's okay, though, because if you've gone to the effort of creating an entire comic book, then clearly you love to draw, and that just means the road to being better will be enjoyable. Passion has no relation to the objective qualities of your artwork. If you love to draw, then you will draw, and your work will improve as if by accident.

    There are certain things you can do to accelerate the rate of your improvement. The first step is accepting that you need to improve. No artist should be arrogant. Even the best of the best know that there is no end point to their improvement besides death. If you keep going, the knowledge that you are ever moving forward will become part of what you love about art.

    It can be helpful to refer to the work of masters and read books on drawing, such as the above mentioned "Successful Drawing". Usually, for working on the fundamentals of figurative drawing, the go-to authors are Andrew Loomis and Burne Hogarth. Personally, I favour Loomis because he focuses on teaching you how to create images and figures out of shadow and shape, rather than lines. He teaches you how to sculpt in 2D. I also just think his work is much more pleasing to the eye.

    You're clearly a fan of Manga.
    The problem many people who love very specific styles like that run into is that they want to draw in that style from the beginning. They often say that they only draw Manga anyway, so they don't need/want to focus on the fundamentals, they will just draw cartoons forever. The thing is, if you ask any of your favourite Manga artists to draw something in a realistic style, they will absolutely be able to comply.
    Often, to be able to give your preferred art style the reverence it deserves, you should be able to draw realistically first so that you can properly understand what stylistic changes you need to make and what your own personal flair can add to the work. You will find that most artists don't favour just one style. They appreciate the merits of many art forms.

    This is just my advice. Take up your pencil, and do what you love. Draw. Keep drawing, but understand that there are paths you can take that will catalyze the rate of your improvement.

    Last edited by SteveZissou; August 19th, 2014 at 08:05 PM.
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    To add to Steve, don't be disheartened, we all have to start somewhere. Currently you draw like most 12yos but with a lot of hard work I'm sure you'll be able to improve quickly. Now, while you're doing that, think of some twists to your story that will make it stand out of the crowd. Why is Kenny uncertain? Does he think Amy might be a body double for an alien, and does it really matter? Do they have dinner parties with monsters invited and what are their table manners like? Are the angels sightly pissed off with having to be good all the time, and do they have a sense of humour? Side characters are very important if you want your world to be believable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggeraz View Post
    You may think you know the fundamentals but your work tells exactly the opposite story, or you have an odd understanding of the word. And let me tell you, you don't lern the fundamentals by visiting one class or buying shitty how-to-draw-manga books, but by constantly studying and practicing over months and years.

    Don't be naive, just compare what you did with a manga that has a decent artist behind it. Or better, let me show you what i mean. First we have your attempt at manga:
    Name:  pageall.jpg
Views: 407
Size:  130.1 KB

    And here we have a real manga that shows that the artist is capable of drawing and creating something that is pleasing to the eye:
    Name:  berserk-28419.jpg
Views: 433
Size:  233.1 KB
    Name:  bers.jpg
Views: 422
Size:  124.5 KB
    As you can see the author and illustrator has a basic understanding of proportion, composition, perspective and rendering. And let me be so bold and hypothesize that he did NOT learn these by reading a 2$ how-to-draw-awsum-manga book but rather by learning how to draw in general.
    On the short call you're better off taking a minimum wage job than wasting your time drawing manga comics and trying to sell them. Even good artist and comic book illustrators struggle to make a living out of drawing and you are a world away from being a good artist.

    My apologies for sounding so harsh but you will waste your precious time trying to do something you don't understand. And if you want to be a comic book artist study the fundamentals.
    I get why you think I don't understand the fundamentals because you can only go by what I've shown. Like I said I wanted to get that issue done so I could start selling it. And I get that I made the mistake the mistake of advertising it here of all places. I'll need to put it somewhere where I can actually sell it. Printing is my best bet, but I'll need to earn money for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by arenhaus View Post
    Um... sorry, but you don't. High schools seldom teach the real drawing fundamentals, either, and buying books does not equal learning. You get points for effort and perseverance, but you need to learn to draw if you want to be competitive.

    If you have really managed to draw an entire book, no matter what the drawing quality, I'd say that your problem isn't patience, it's ability to see as an artist. You are imitating things poorly, instead of creating things.

    So get "Successful Drawing" by Loomis and practice structural drawing in pencil.
    Thanks for the link, and I refuse to continue trying to argue this point. Fact of the matter is I made the mistake of advertising this here, I need to take it elsewhere... I'm looking to earn some money and it's blatantly obvious I won't be able to do that here with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZissou View Post
    Hey friend, I think I know how you might be feeling after some of these comments, and while I by no means do I want to undermine anything anyone has said, I reckon you need a little sugar, no?

    First of all, I want to say "good for you," for going ahead and publishing your work, that's a first step it takes many professionals in many fields a while to build up to.
    Second, it has to be admitted that your work could use some work.
    I'm not saying you're "bad" because bad implies it's something fundamental about you, but I am saying that you're inexperienced. That's okay, though, because if you've gone to the effort of creating an entire comic book, then clearly you love to draw, and that just means the road to being better will be enjoyable. Passion has no relation to the objective qualities of your artwork. If you love to draw, then you will draw, and your work will improve as if by accident.

    There are certain things you can do to accelerate the rate of your improvement. The first step is accepting that you need to improve. No artist should be arrogant. Even the best of the best know that there is no end point to their improvement besides death. If you keep going, the knowledge that you are ever moving forward will become part of what you love about art.

    It can be helpful to refer to the work of masters and read books on drawing, such as the above mentioned "Successful Drawing". Usually, for working on the fundamentals of figurative drawing, the go-to authors are Andrew Loomis and Burne Hogarth. Personally, I favour Loomis because he focuses on teaching you how to create images and figures out of shadow and shape, rather than lines. He teaches you how to sculpt in 2D. I also just think his work is much more pleasing to the eye.

    You're clearly a fan of Manga.
    The problem many people who love very specific styles like that run into is that they want to draw in that style from the beginning. They often say that they only draw Manga anyway, so they don't need/want to focus on the fundamentals, they will just draw cartoons forever. The thing is, if you ask any of your favourite Manga artists to draw something in a realistic style, they will absolutely be able to comply.
    Often, to be able to give your preferred art style the reverence it deserves, you should be able to draw realistically first so that you can properly understand what stylistic changes you need to make and what your own personal flair can add to the work. You will find that most artists don't favour just one style. They appreciate the merits of many art forms.

    This is just my advice. Take up your pencil, and do what you love. Draw. Keep drawing, but understand that there are paths you can take that will catalyze the rate of your improvement.
    Like I said I'm not gonna argue this point any further... I posted this in hopes of making some money, but I neglected to keep in mind the expectation this place has. In hindsight I should've presented something that better proportioned character designs and backgrounds. Also I get the coloring is off. Trust me I looked over it several times, I get what's wrong with it. Hence why I need to advertise it elsewhere, so I can make the money first, improve the later issues... wash, lather, rinse, repeat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Spot View Post
    To add to Steve, don't be disheartened, we all have to start somewhere. Currently you draw like most 12yos but with a lot of hard work I'm sure you'll be able to improve quickly. Now, while you're doing that, think of some twists to your story that will make it stand out of the crowd. Why is Kenny uncertain? Does he think Amy might be a body double for an alien, and does it really matter? Do they have dinner parties with monsters invited and what are their table manners like? Are the angels sightly pissed off with having to be good all the time, and do they have a sense of humour? Side characters are very important if you want your world to be believable.
    I'll explain to you in a private message why the story sounds as senseless as it does, but right now I need to get back to trying to sell this thing, so I'll take it elsewhere.

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    Now you're delusional. No one is going to buy it as is. We tried to be nice, but sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting, La-la-la I can't hear you." is not going to help.

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    so I can make the money first, improve the later issues...
    You don't need much money to improve your drawing skills.
    A pencil costs 50p and you can draw on 50gsm printer paper if that's all that's available.
    Like I said I'm not gonna argue this point any further...
    I'm not trying to argue with you, friend, but if you don't want to talk about it further, that's entirely up to you. I'm sure if you continue to draw regardless of what we say, you will eventually improve to a point where at least some of the stuff we've said here will click for you. Whether you work out your issues on your own or with help is, of course, your prerogative, but this kind of website - where people are usually happy to advise you - is the perfect accompaniment to a personal journey of artistic improvement, assuming you utilise it efficiently. It is healthy to take all advice with a grain of salt, but equally unhealthy to ignore it completely.

    Please look at my Sketchbook
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    The problem is not that you advertised your comic to the wrong audience, the problem is that it is of exceptional poor quality and done in MS-fucking-Paint (pardon my french). Regardless of where you'll advertise your work, no one is gonna pay for something that looks like a child drew it.
    Like it was said, you are delusional if you really believe this.

    I think it is indeed a good idea to stop arguing about your knowledge of the fundamentals at this point. Your work is against you in this matter. And don't give me weak excuses like your comic was being rushed. Even rushed work can show the artist's capabilities and level of skill pretty well, and your work shows me again that you are not skilled enough for doing an decent manga-comic.

    It was told to you by different persons how you can improve and learn drawing on a basic level. What you do with these informations is up to you, but i strongly recommend to take the advices given seriously and learn to draw if you are serious about creating comic books. You can, of course, walk away ignorant of where you stand as an artist, but don't be surprised if you don't sell a single issue. Which is going to happen.

    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Spot View Post
    Now you're delusional. No one is going to buy it as is. We tried to be nice, but sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting, La-la-la I can't hear you." is not going to help.
    Sorry, didn't mean to come off as delusional... Just irritated... I just don't want y'all to repeat yourselves because that gets old for all parties involved, and I'm sure you know that much... You only need to say it once after all since I'm not THAT stubborn... Not anymore anyway... But like I said it's already too late for this first issue of this series since my primary focus is to sell it. Right now I can't afford to revise it because I'm not in the position to do so since I'm trying to find a regular 9-5 and have to take care of my parents, and STILL need to go back to school for this.

    I'd like to get this done before my birthday on September 29th, hence why I need to try and sell this comic elsewhere since I can't get it sold here.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZissou View Post
    You don't need much money to improve your drawing skills.
    A pencil costs 50p and you can draw on 50gsm printer paper if that's all that's available.
    My bad, I wasn't clear so I'll explain. See I'm currently unemployed with only $60 to my name. My printer is also unable to print for reasons I can't discern, so I'm using sites like Kablam and Lulu, but printing on those cost more than I can afford hence why I'm looking for a job so I can afford the printing cost...

    Quote Originally Posted by =SteveZissou View Post
    I'm not trying to argue with you, friend, but if you don't want to talk about it further, that's entirely up to you. I'm sure if you continue to draw regardless of what we say, you will eventually improve to a point where at least some of the stuff we've said here will click for you. Whether you work out your issues on your own or with help is, of course, your prerogative, but this kind of website - where people are usually happy to advise you - is the perfect accompaniment to a personal journey of artistic improvement, assuming you utilise it efficiently. It is healthy to take all advice with a grain of salt, but equally unhealthy to ignore it completely.
    I don't want to ignore the advice given to me, I just don't want you all to repeat yourselves over and over, but understand that it's too late for me to improve this issue because I already put it out there, and I have to deal with that. I'm not like George Lucas, who goes back to edit something in post that was already published. If it sucks people will tell me and I'll improve the next one, that's how I roll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggeraz View Post
    The problem is not that you advertised your comic to the wrong audience, the problem is that it is of exceptional poor quality and done in MS-fucking-Paint (pardon my french). Regardless of where you'll advertise your work, no one is gonna pay for something that looks like a child drew it.
    Like it was said, you are delusional if you really believe this.

    I think it is indeed a good idea to stop arguing about your knowledge of the fundamentals at this point. Your work is against you in this matter. And don't give me weak excuses like your comic was being rushed. Even rushed work can show the artist's capabilities and level of skill pretty well, and your work shows me again that you are not skilled enough for doing an decent manga-comic.

    It was told to you by different persons how you can improve and learn drawing on a basic level. What you do with these informations is up to you, but i strongly recommend to take the advices given seriously and learn to draw if you are serious about creating comic books. You can, of course, walk away ignorant of where you stand as an artist, but don't be surprised if you don't sell a single issue. Which is going to happen.
    You and I have a different understanding of what it means to advertise to a certain audience. Given the criticism I've received here, it's apparent I made a mistake in thinking that I could advertise something that doesn't match the standards of most if not all of the artists here.

    Hence why I need to take it somewhere where I get the criticism after I've made a few sales... I'll use the criticism I've been given here, just not now while my main objective to earn some money while pursuing a regular job, because I don't have the patience for that anymore...

    This will be the last time I'm going to say this because this back and forth has gotten old for me. My current objective and concern is to make some money off my work so I can leave my parents and go back to school. Once I have more time to devote to myself and my work then I'll focus more effort into the artwork then what I've presented here.

    But honestly I still have unpublished short stories so I have to focus on getting those published too.

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    It kind of seems like you have the thinking backwards, which is, you want to make an income now and afterwards you'll improve the artwork. I don't know what to say other then, if that's true and do-able, we're all wasting our time on this site trying to improve.

    I don't know what kind of audience you would appeal to that would purchase this comic, based off of the images you posted. It would really feel like those low-end "How to Draw" rip-offs that somehow get published...but even those are slightly higher quality than what you've posted...

    This isn't to shoot you down, and no one here is trying deter you. It's great to dream and have ambition and want to make money from your art, but you NEED the SKILL LEVEL to match those goals. I would put all this on hold, and get to drawing. If you're looking for an income, there's nothing wrong with working a regular job and improving you're art on the side.

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    I don't want to ignore the advice given to me, I just don't want you all to repeat yourselves over and over, but understand that it's too late for me to improve this issue because I already put it out there, and I have to deal with that. I'm not like George Lucas, who goes back to edit something in post that was already published. If it sucks people will tell me and I'll improve the next one, that's how I roll.
    The advice you're being given is not to improve this specific comic.
    We all understand that you can't turn back time or anything like that.
    The advice is to perhaps put the comic on the back burner for a second, because you're going to need to practice and improve your skills somewhat before you're going to shift anything like the amount of copies you need to live off of your art.
    I'm guessing you're not self-sufficient right now? That you live with your parents/grandparents/carers or something? If that's the case, and you need to fund your own endeavors, I advise getting a Saturday job and spending the money not on getting what you have already printed, but saving it, getting better at drawing, and then attempting to sell your comics at a later date when you can produce them at a professional level.
    What you have to understand is that consumers aren't going to buy your comic as it stands. I really don't mean that as an insult or to put you down, but the truth is that you're an inexperienced artist, and many professionals who have spent DECADES honing their craft struggle to make beer money by publishing their own comics.
    You've got guts to put your work out there, but trust me and all of these other people (who have backgrounds in art, that's why they're on this website), it's not a matter of where you advertise.
    You need to improve significantly before you can make a thin dime from your work.
    I hate to be blunt like that, and I don't want to put you off doing what you love, but I don't want to fool you into thinking you're going to be the next Stan Lee any time soon. It could happen, but you need a little more experience under your belt.

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  24. #19
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    Oh boy, here we go again. Sardansson, as others have suggested, unless you do a total art overhaul your comic book you aren't going to make any money with it. It will probably not get accepted by any publishers unless you front the cash to publish it yourself, in which case you will be loosing money.

    Many of the people on this site giving you advice are professionals. (granted, you will also have eager young amateurs who will probably be even more harsh as they try to get recognition, but that's another story.) We make a living making art, and we can spot work that has potential to make it, as well as when the work doesn't.

    In your case you have a long way to go. I know it hurts to hear that; straight out of high school I also thought I was the shit and all I wanted to hear was how good I was. However, very few people can jump straight to being a successful published artist right out of high school, and with your current skill set I can tell you right now that you aren't ready.

    Now, a common trend on here is to bash art schools, and there are a few schools out there that have created bad reputations for themselves and thus perpetuate that trend. However, a good way to gauge how close you are to being able to get published is by applying to the quality schools out there and see if you can get accepted. If schools like SCAD, ACCD, or CalArts won't even let you enroll that means that you are not even as good as those artists seeking to get an education that might teach them what it takes to work professionally. Right now, I doubt you could hack it getting accepted, and as such you are years away from having a chance at success as a professional artist.

    edit: I should also add that you might want to watch your behavior in responding. People around here take glee in riling folks up with their crits, and there is actually a sort of "wall of shame" for artists who not only have bad art, but also cop a bad attitude when they are called out on it. You might want to change your tune before you make the list... if someone hasn't already linked to this thread there already.

    edit #2: NM, just checked, already there.

    Last edited by Peter Coene; August 22nd, 2014 at 02:51 PM.
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