Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 13 of 47
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    768
    Thanks
    57
    Thanked 103 Times in 100 Posts

    Struggling to Self-Correct techniques

    I have been studying art on my own for about 5 years now, and I still find myself struggling with the same things. Value. Form. Strokes. Basically, my self critiques and the critiques of others (when I have the courage to ask) come down to the same thing. My values are wrong (not pushing far enough) my forms don't stand out, they seem blurry or too soft.

    With all the books I have read and practices I have done, something is just not clicking. I can not seem to push myself to really add contrast to the values. It always looks wrong to me. I always end up softening hard lines. They always look wrong to me when I try to make them crisp or sure. I am frustrated and at a loss as to how to improve these things, and I have a couple of barriers that I can not overcome.

    For one, art books are really hard to come by in English. I am living in Japan and while I can sometimes find said books in Japanese..I can't read them! Paying twice the cost of the book just because of shipping is just not feasible, either. I have a kindle, but all the books that are recommended are not on the kindle yet. There are lots of art books that are on kindle, but I am unsure as to which are good to try and which won't help.

    Money is always an issue. I was taking figure drawing classes for a while, but the expense got too much so I had to drop them. I keep waiting to be able to afford them again (they were the cheapest ones but I had to travel to the city) but life isn't giving me the income just yet. :/

    I have found lots of images to use for references, and with the nice weather I plan on going out more for more life studies (I also have an area set aside for still lifes) but here is the thing---if I can not correct what I am doing wrong, I will just keep practicing the same bad form.

    I did a lot of Loomis studies, and I looked into several others (god, I can never remember how to type all their names...bargue...hograth? Vilppu...sight-size methods...) but I am almost positive that I am practicing *wrong*. How can I get crisp forms and less blurring. How can I train my eye to see it correctly?

    When I work on a piece, I almost always end up using a blender because it looks too harsh, to...wrong. That is the best way to explain it. I guess it is kind of hard to really describe what I mean. I am sure it shows up in my sketchbook here on CA. Can anyone help me correct whatever it is I am doing wrong when I draw? Traditional and digital as they seem to bleed into each other for me?

    I am going on a little trip for a day, so I won't be able to respond for at least 48 hours--but I am desperate and frustrated and I want to figure this out. Reading and Life studies--I get that, but if the technique I am using is bad (which it seems to be) then I won't get better until I fix it, right? I really appreciate your time.

    My full range of work: http://anjyil.deviantart.com/gallery/

    My weird sketchbook here (it`s best to just skip to the end haha): http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...06#post2430006
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote


  2. Hide this ad by registering as a member
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,977
    Thanks
    2,826
    Thanked 6,087 Times in 2,480 Posts
    I took a look at your sketchbook and it looks to me that you don't see understand form very well yet. Even when you copy something like Dean Cornwell drawings you miss or change the parts that really describe the forms of the object. You can get the shapes right but the forms are off so work a little harder on getting those things exactly right.

    You say you've been at this five years but that doesn't really mean anything. How much practice do you put in everyday? An hour? Two? Three? Be consistent with the time you practice. Its better to practice in a focused way even for a short time everyday than going weeks without doing anything.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    74
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
    ...and then i realized your sketchbook thread is f-in 4 years, stretching 2009-2013.
    mind is blown.

    One technique to work around a barrier is to make drastic changes in the way you work.

    You probably have a specific technique for how to output a painting complete with your default way to make the composition, structure the piece, build the characters and do whatever color work. Part of your inability to break your barrier is tied to your conditioning with those techniques. In other words you've learned an error and its hard for you to un-learn it.

    If you take a different technique, a different medium and draw in methods you are not comfortable with, you won't encounter the barrier of the stuff you've already learned in as strong a way, and you can focus on learning whatever you're not succeeding with "the right way" without having yourself as a disruptive element.

    and after that your new understanding should be easy to incorporate into the rest of your work since you already have the idea that what you're doing now can be improved.

    When i look at your work so far I don't see that you work with oil pastels. I think that's a good way to start. Oil pastels have a different feel to them than other mediums, they require you to "play dirty" and touch the painting to the extent that your hand gets sore from doing art, they generally have a very rich, vibrant natural color (which is what you're struggling with - giving your work these qualities) and don't allow you to get easily into any decent resolution - meaning you'll have to work your ass off to get into the amount of definition and that pushes you right into tackling your problems. They naturally lend themselves into being mixed into other oil pastels (with some coercion) Also they are cheap.

    The heights by great men reached and kept,
    Were not attained by sudden flight,
    For they, while they companions slept,
    Were toiling upwards in the night"

    (Henry Wadsworth)
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Amir0 For This Useful Post:


  6. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    74
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
    ...and then i realized your sketchbook thread is f-in 4 years, stretching 2009-2013.
    mind is blown.

    One technique to work around a barrier is to make drastic changes in the way you work.

    You probably have a specific technique for how to output a painting complete with your default way to make the composition, structure the piece, build the characters and do whatever color work. Part of your inability to break your barrier is tied to your conditioning with those techniques. In other words you've learned an error and its hard for you to un-learn it.

    If you take a different technique, a different medium and draw in methods you are not comfortable with, you won't encounter the barrier of the stuff you've already learned in as strong a way, and you can focus on learning whatever you're not succeeding with "the right way" without having yourself as a disruptive element.

    and after that your new understanding should be easy to incorporate into the rest of your work since you already have the idea that what you're doing now can be improved.

    When i look at your work so far I don't see that you work with oil pastels. I think that's a good way to start. Oil pastels have a different feel to them than other mediums, they require you to "play dirty" and touch the painting to the extent that your hand gets sore from doing art, they generally have a very rich, vibrant natural color (which is what you're struggling with - giving your work these qualities) and don't allow you to get easily into any decent resolution - meaning you'll have to work your ass off to get into the amount of definition and that pushes you right into tackling your problems. They naturally lend themselves into being mixed into other oil pastels (with some coercion) Also they are cheap.

    P.S. what's the work process for doing this kind of pic??? : http://www.conceptart.org/forums/att...1&d=1387890369
    (mind is blown)

    The heights by great men reached and kept,
    Were not attained by sudden flight,
    For they, while they companions slept,
    Were toiling upwards in the night"

    (Henry Wadsworth)
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Amir0 For This Useful Post:


  8. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    1,623
    Thanks
    21
    Thanked 537 Times in 384 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by anjyil View Post
    I have been studying art on my own for about 5 years now, and I still find myself struggling with the same things. Value. Form. Strokes. Basically, my self critiques and the critiques of others (when I have the courage to ask) come down to the same thing. My values are wrong (not pushing far enough) my forms don't stand out, they seem blurry or too soft.
    First things first: study form. Draw a simple object and try to get the form right, using construction lines, measuring distances and angles. Post the results here.

    For one, art books are really hard to come by in English.
    Forget about books, you don't need a lot. First, study line, form. Second, study life drawing, from Loomis. Study value and colour. This should keep you busy for a year or two.

    Grinnikend door het leven...
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to eezacque For This Useful Post:


  10. #6
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    11,363
    Thanks
    3,785
    Thanked 5,838 Times in 3,944 Posts
    And don't just do it once, do it multiple times until you get it right every single time.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Black Spot For This Useful Post:


  12. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    768
    Thanks
    57
    Thanked 103 Times in 100 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    I took a look at your sketchbook and it looks to me that you don't see understand form very well yet. Even when you copy something like Dean Cornwell drawings you miss or change the parts that really describe the forms of the object. You can get the shapes right but the forms are off so work a little harder on getting those things exactly right.

    You say you've been at this five years but that doesn't really mean anything. How much practice do you put in everyday? An hour? Two? Three? Be consistent with the time you practice. Its better to practice in a focused way even for a short time everyday than going weeks without doing anything.
    Thank you---yes, you are very right. I am not exactly sure what I do, but I know that I have probably been doing it since grade school. I am not sure how to do it differently, but maybe I need to work in more extremes?

    As for my practice load---well, it depends on the day as I have a job with a random schedule. I try to draw something or work on small projects, but I haven't done straight up practices in a couple of months because I really needed a break. I was on a burn out and forgetting why I liked to draw lol. Now I am looking to jump back into practices, but this little break plus a few critiques has showed me that I need to change something first before I try that. I tend to get obsessed with practicing and irritable when I am interrupted, so I usually wait for a long open period to practice.

    Okay, so when I go back into the practices, try and copy 100%--I think I can use that whole overlay thing to check.

    My full range of work: http://anjyil.deviantart.com/gallery/

    My weird sketchbook here (it`s best to just skip to the end haha): http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...06#post2430006
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  13. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    768
    Thanks
    57
    Thanked 103 Times in 100 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Amir0 View Post
    ...and then i realized your sketchbook thread is f-in 4 years, stretching 2009-2013.
    mind is blown.

    One technique to work around a barrier is to make drastic changes in the way you work.

    You probably have a specific technique for how to output a painting complete with your default way to make the composition, structure the piece, build the characters and do whatever color work. Part of your inability to break your barrier is tied to your conditioning with those techniques. In other words you've learned an error and its hard for you to un-learn it.

    If you take a different technique, a different medium and draw in methods you are not comfortable with, you won't encounter the barrier of the stuff you've already learned in as strong a way, and you can focus on learning whatever you're not succeeding with "the right way" without having yourself as a disruptive element.

    and after that your new understanding should be easy to incorporate into the rest of your work since you already have the idea that what you're doing now can be improved.

    When i look at your work so far I don't see that you work with oil pastels. I think that's a good way to start. Oil pastels have a different feel to them than other mediums, they require you to "play dirty" and touch the painting to the extent that your hand gets sore from doing art, they generally have a very rich, vibrant natural color (which is what you're struggling with - giving your work these qualities) and don't allow you to get easily into any decent resolution - meaning you'll have to work your ass off to get into the amount of definition and that pushes you right into tackling your problems. They naturally lend themselves into being mixed into other oil pastels (with some coercion) Also they are cheap.

    P.S. what's the work process for doing this kind of pic??? : http://www.conceptart.org/forums/att...1&d=1387890369
    (mind is blown)
    I actually don't have any oil pastels...I have some kind of pastel from a kids art kit that I got several years ago. Honestly, I was lucky to find the watercolor kid (which is about 20 years old!) I have found that whatever it is I am doing with charcoal and pencil, I try to do it with other mediums because I don't know how to use those mediums. I have been using pencil since grade school lol.



    As for the watercolor, I used and followed this tutorial
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB4V5vlvzTo

    It was really fun, but then I got discouraged when trying anything on my own because I get confused that I can't do what I do with pencils with watercolor

    Right now, all I have are pencils, charcoal, kiddy pastels, kiddy colored pencils, and that 20 year old watercolor. I am unwilling to buy descent materials until I can show some kind of progress--my money is limited so I worry about wasting it.

    My full range of work: http://anjyil.deviantart.com/gallery/

    My weird sketchbook here (it`s best to just skip to the end haha): http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...06#post2430006
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  14. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    768
    Thanks
    57
    Thanked 103 Times in 100 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by eezacque@xs4all.nl View Post
    First things first: study form. Draw a simple object and try to get the form right, using construction lines, measuring distances and angles. Post the results here.



    Forget about books, you don't need a lot. First, study line, form. Second, study life drawing, from Loomis. Study value and colour. This should keep you busy for a year or two.

    I guess I have been studying form wrong ::shrugs:: I did a long time on setting up construction and thought it was enough--key word is thought. Self assessment of progress is not always accurate.

    So basically, set up a still life and use sight-size or whatever methods I can to match the physical object as much as possible and then go from there. Once I get that down, I can start trying to work in values again--this time using more dramatic differences and then going for more subtle--and from there, I can start adding color. This will keep me busy. ^_^

    I will have to clear my easel to get to work on that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Spot View Post
    And don't just do it once, do it multiple times until you get it right every single time.
    I think that is why I do it wrong--I stopped thinking it was "good enough" rather than right.

    My full range of work: http://anjyil.deviantart.com/gallery/

    My weird sketchbook here (it`s best to just skip to the end haha): http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...06#post2430006
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  15. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    74
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
    ...I get confused that I can't do what I do with pencils with watercolor...
    That's the whole point of the exercise. To give you an easy way to get to the the place of "lack of knowledge" where you learn everything for the first time.

    As for Oil Pastels just so we are both talking about the same thing this is what im talking about (maybe it's the kit you already have):

    Name:  msLBzCKalRkcCZgEkMABwMA.jpg
Views: 482
Size:  26.6 KB

    The kiddie version should cost about 2 USD in a general writing instrument shop and you don't need anything fancier (considering 2 sticks of high quality stuff cost the same as the entire kiddie kit and the kiddie kit gives good enough results).

    When buying care get ones with no tip. the ones that have a conical tip in the shop are hard and more like pencils which is crap for you you want the ones that are like plasteline that you can just plaster into the paper and then squeeze them into shape with your fingers on the paper.

    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Amir0; April 14th, 2014 at 01:12 AM.
    The heights by great men reached and kept,
    Were not attained by sudden flight,
    For they, while they companions slept,
    Were toiling upwards in the night"

    (Henry Wadsworth)
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  16. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    768
    Thanks
    57
    Thanked 103 Times in 100 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Amir0 View Post
    [QUOTE...]

    That's the whole point of the exercise....
    And that is where I fail the exercise! hehe I understand what you mean, though.

    I have no clue what kind of pastels they are, but this is the art kit I am talking about. I don't use those watercolors, though. The ones I use are older...twenty years old, back when my husband was in school and they had art classes. I will have to keep my eyes open at the art stores for what look similiar, or maybe the 100 yen shop. They sometimes use different names in Japanese or katakana which can be confusing.

    Attached Images Attached Images  
    My full range of work: http://anjyil.deviantart.com/gallery/

    My weird sketchbook here (it`s best to just skip to the end haha): http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...06#post2430006
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  17. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    768
    Thanks
    57
    Thanked 103 Times in 100 Posts
    That art kit above I have tried using---I have found that it is horrible for any kind of blending, so I don't think any of that is oil based...

    My full range of work: http://anjyil.deviantart.com/gallery/

    My weird sketchbook here (it`s best to just skip to the end haha): http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...06#post2430006
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  18. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    74
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
    Name:  art set.JPG
Views: 491
Size:  77.9 KB

    These should be those. But ofc they should be a bit soft to the touch. When you pressure them into the paper they smear which is how you do the blending (force required).

    The heights by great men reached and kept,
    Were not attained by sudden flight,
    For they, while they companions slept,
    Were toiling upwards in the night"

    (Henry Wadsworth)
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Members who have read this thread: 1

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
  • 424,149 Artists
  • 3,599,276 Artist Posts
  • 32,941 Sketchbooks
  • 54 New Art Jobs
Art Workshop Discount Inside
Register

Developed Actively by vBSocial.com
SpringOfSea's Sketchbook