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  1. #1
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    Ukariane & Venezuela

    I don't know the rest of you, but I'm horrified at what corrupt politicians have done to their people.

    Ukaraine- start counting the bodies.

    Venezuela the Warzone.

    If you're elected to serve the people, you do just that, not line your pockets. How long before the rest of the world follows suit?


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  3. #2
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    The brits are well known for their sarcasm so I'm not sure if that was a swipe at our glorious coalition gov or not? If it was sarcastic then here here... Dont trust cameron as far as i could throw him.

    If youre serious though, i feel compelled to point out the irony of western media making a huge song and dance over Russia's involvement in ukrainian politics. Sure we in the civilised west don't butcher our own citizens but foreigners are fair game it seems. I'd hate to be an Iraqi... Must have killed over quarter of a million Iraqis since the war on terror... Just take a look at the leaked footage from wikileaks showing an Apache helicopter spraying civilians and kids with 30cal. The pilot was all yeeha.., a couple of reuters journos were chewed up. Does this represent the values we are supposed to aspire to? We're a democracy right? We're spreading the preeminence of our way of life, and our morality? Russia is protecting its interests because its worried that its soon going to be surrounded by NATO. Which since the end of the cold war and the Warsaw pact should have been dissolved but somehow persists as another tool for US global military interests. Somehow its okay for us to justify the deaths of thousands if not millions of people in other nations in the protection of our interests, but its not alright for others like russia to do so? I'm not saying that what's happening in the Ukraine is right. Or course not... I'm just calling for some perspective?

    2 million Vietnamese killed during the Vietnam war... No war trials for the president or anyone else responsible...

    As for venezuala, I wouldn't believe a thing coming out of there reported by mainstream media who are known for being owned by right wing pro US, pro capitalistic interests. I have a friend in the Ukraine and she vouches for the crap going down over there but the last time the Venezuelan media reported a massacre by Hugo chavez's thugs against peaceful democratic demonstrators it turned out the whole thing was a CIA backed hoax with badly edited footage and a coup d'etat against Chavez (who was actually gasp elected). The CIA backed sniper kill squads. Chavez, because he nationalised Venezuela's oil was deemed a 'threat to US national security', so he was deposed and replaced by a non elected junta whose first acts were to dissolve parliament, the courts and basically every single article of democracy. 24 hours later the people rose up and basically the army, faced with the prospect of shooting thousands of citizens changed sides. Chavez being put back into power by the people was one of the most amazing and powerful acts of democracy in modern times... Oliver stone, Nick Pilger and various others have made some interesting docs about it.

    So I don't really believe the stories coming out of Venezuela... The new president used to be a bus driver. I'd trust a bus driver over the likes of a monied elite like cameron , Osborne and Clegg... They don't give a shit about the common people. They might not be shooting us but they are devaluing our currency which is a hidden tax on our savings. Giving our future tax/pay to wanker bankers and widening the gap between rich and poor every day with their university fees, soon to be privatised NHS etc... You know they took the EU to court to defend the UK's right to set its own bonuses for bankers... Who are they serving? The electorate or the elite? Labour are just as bad. Did you know that Gordon brown raised the tax by 2% on small businesses - that's sandwich shops, self employed plumbers etc... Whilst lowering the tax for large corporations? Well who was his daddy? Under labour we gave the bankers 500 billion pounds. That's the equivalent of an Olympic sized facility in 100 towns and cities in the UK. Think about that... The Olympics cost the UK 4.5 billion. We gave idiot bankers who through their greed and incompetence lost billions of THIER depositor's funds... Wtf? No one was jailed for negligence??? They lost money that we entrusted them to hold in safe keeping. So what does labour do? It doesn't loan the money to the banks, it just gives it to them without so much as a piece of paper to say this is when the people will get paid back. Oh were supposed to own the banks now but that's just bollocks. Its just business as usual! I think I'd rather have open corruption...

    Anyhow, I'm really sorry for the rant. These issues really get me
    Last edited by Kelvin Liew; February 22nd, 2014 at 07:49 PM.
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  5. #3
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    It is sad what has been happening to Venezuela.

    The protests against the government have always been very dangerous.
    I remember the first protests that started with Hugo Chavez. I was 10 or 11 years old. One of the girls from my school got killed in one of the peaceful protests against the government. SHe was 17.

    Its true what the article says about the media being mostly controlled by the government.
    When I was 18 or 19 is when Chavez started closing the TV stations because they would show propaganda that he didnt agree with. I remember going to class to the University and seeing some of the students sitting in the entrance with their signs about freedom of speech. And what happened that day? we got barricaded in the university while the police threw tear gas at the students from the entrance.
    This was also around the time when food started to lack in the country. You couldnt find milk, you couldnt find meat, chicken, basic necessary foods.
    It never used to be like this.
    During this time Chavez spent most of the time taking expensive airplane rides to visit his dictator friends at the middle east and cuba.

    It's been 6 years since this.
    When I moved to Canada 6 years ago one of the things that surprised me the most was how full the supermarkets were, no empty shelves, you could find the same item from different brands...sad, isnt it?

    I thought that maybe with the death of Chavez things would start getting better in Venezuela, but I was wrong.
    My grandmother still lives in Caracas, the stories she tells me are terrifying.

    Normally I don't like to talk about this, much less on the internet, but with comments about tinfoil hat-CIA conspiracy theories, I felt I needed to say something.
    Venezuela is a very dangerous and poor country and the United States has absolutely nothing to do with it.

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  7. #4
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    Thanks for posting that first hand account. I have to say I'm confused about the information.

    On the one hand I've seen interviews where people are saying that there is plenty of freedom of speech in venezuela and that every day the media criticises the government, and that the media is privately owned. But you're saying the exact opposite. This leaves me as an outsider with frankly no clue as to what to believe. As I said, I have watched several documentaries from decent journalists about the issue. Are they all lying? In which case why are they lying? What do they have to gain. By the same rationale I completely believe what you are saying - obviously you have no reason not to tell it as you know it. So on the one hand independent journalism is saying that Chavez was good - whilst mainstream US media and yourself say he was bad...

    What is known and can't be disputed is that the west has had a very long history of interfering in the affairs of other countries. There are plenty of historical accounts of US interference in South American politics in the past 100 years. Chile and Pinochet is a great example. Having destroyed the country with his oppressive right wing dictatorial regime, he manages to flee and is given asylum by the UK of all people. He lives the rest of his life in relative peace and never stands trial in Chile for all the many thousands of people that were tortured or killed during his regime. I know a Chilean girl whose family fled because of the kinds of persecutions that were going on. She was outraged that the UK was giving asylum to who she considered a war criminal. So he's our friend because he lets us use his bases during the Argentinian war - we'll just turn a blind eye to his murdering?

    Or maybe the Shah of Iran... Who was definitely put into power by the CIA... I mean they don't deny these things - it's open knowledge. But anyhow, I can't argue with your first hand experiences... I'm not a Venezuelan after all! I DO know that I don't trust the UK or the US government. They have consistently lied on all kinds of issues. There may be food in the supermarkets and of course we should be just grateful for that, but I can't shake the way they seem to serve the interests of the corporate elite rather than the majority of the people.

    I had hoped that in South America there was positive news - things like the Bolivian uprising against the interests of the Bechtel corporation trying to control the water. I wanted to believe that actually Hugo Chavez was trying to do the right thing. But you say he was a dictator and basically just like the rest of them. Very sad. I genuinely believed that there was a good revolution happening in South America. The world just got a little bit worse this morning...
    Last edited by Kelvin Liew; February 23rd, 2014 at 09:14 AM.
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  8. #5
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    Well ever since the first tv station was closed, the rest just backed off out of fear of getting closed too.
    Cant say for sure nowadays since I haven't been there for so long, I don't know if the government is getting criticized as much as it was back then. But yes definitely what I lived through and what my remaining family there is living through is not a good thing. I remember when I was living there the government institutions started firing from their jobs those that showed that they were from the opposition.
    You shouldn't believe those cia rumors so much, I can't really talk about Chile or the rest of South America since I don't know. But take Venezuela and the coup d'etat for example, Besides the Middle East, Venezuela is not the only country that produces oil. I'm sure the US would be fine with taking their business elsewhere. And the majority of Venezuela's income comes from exporting oil, cutting the US would have been a very stupid thing to do.

  9. #6
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    I was being sarcastic lovingit. The UK people still have the right to march/protest etc, but it is being eroded slowly bit by bit by both sides. And the more politician kowtow to corporations, the harder things are going to get. I've lived all over the world when I was young where it wasn't exactly considered safe including Iran during the Shah's time.

    Voodoo_Mama I'm sorry to hear the worst confirmed; I'd love to be wrong. With all the oil they have, you'd think the politicians would start to put the population first.

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  11. #7
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  12. #8
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    Dayum... Fell for the sarcasm too. Just so hard to read sarcasm in writing.

    You might be interested in watching a very informative and inspirational documentary called 'inequality for all' can't remember the director but its basically the study of the ex us labour secretary under bill Clinton and how this inequality has happened and why its really bad for the economy and how basically just before the great depression in the 1930s there was an almost exact correlation with today's income inequality. He explains how a shrinking middle class is basically the fore runner to a massive economic downturn where income gets redistributed. It happened in Rome and I'll happen again in the near future...

    Worth watching
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