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  1. #61
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    It's said that to do hand-to-hand fighting in modern warfare, a commando must first lose his rifle, his grenades, his sidearm, his bayonet, his knife, his other knife, his spade, etc. And then he has to find another idiot like himself in the middle of a battlefield.

    However, hand to hand training is done for other reasons than preparing for combat. It has benefits that spill over into many other things. Balance, attention span, awareness, control of one's body, strength and leverage, reflexes, reserve, economy of movement, trauma prevention, and many other things improve with hand to hand training. These have uses other than beating someone up.

    And if done properly, combat training is not about mindless repetition. Like all training, it works best when you are doing the exercise while aware of what you are doing and striving to perfect it - this is true for any field, from martial arts to visual arts.

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  3. #62
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    I imagine as an Isreali you've done your fair share of beasting and being beasted during national service. And let's not forget this stuff has real value over there. It's not just sports in Isreal alas...

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  4. #63
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    Modern combat training, as practiced by national armies(places that train warriors to fight in wars), is not the same as what's taught in a traditional dojo, and all those additional effects can be gotten from various sports.

    Quote Originally Posted by lovingit View Post
    And let's not forget this stuff has real value over there. It's not just sports
    Modern sports have greater health, emotional, cultural, and monetary value, than every traditional martial art combined. Modern combat training has greater military value than every traditional martial art combined, kind of like how modern guns have greater military value than an old blunderbuss.

    Last edited by Black Spot; February 8th, 2014 at 02:07 AM. Reason: remove double entry
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  5. #64
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    ? I don't get what you just said or actually why you said it ?

    All I was saying was an Isreali in national service is very likely to encounter life threatening situations all the time. I mean way more likely than say a 19 year old Swede in national service. So your hand to hand combat training (regardless of the likelihood of it being used) is way more relevant. I mean I don't think there were many people scratching their noses in class! Maybe we should ask Arenhaus if they teach arm bars or not? My guess is probably!

    Anyhow I think the debate has pretty much run it's course no? It's not really art related and I'm not about to start talking about the relevance or not of traditional martial arts in a modern society. You don't see the point of them - that's fine... no biggie! Each to their own. Live and let live... etc... etc...

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  6. #65
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    What I love about scott robertson as a teacher is that he emphasizes that drawing is a skill, and like any skill, it can be learned. He even has a formula... skill = knowledge + hardwork.

    But seriously what im really curious about is how art center students study perspective. How are they structured? All the art center guys I have heard of have been very efficient in perspective feng zhu, john park, scott robertson. Back when I was studying architecture, we were taught the measuring point method with tsquares and straight edges. so I never really understood how perspective worked since We were only taught about the process of setting up all the necessary points without teaching us the why. And to make things worse we were transitioning to cad so we became overly reliant on 3d modeling. In art center I think their emphasis is on free hand sketching which is I think a more efficient way of learning to be a good draftsman.

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  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by hexo View Post
    But seriously what im really curious about is how art center students study perspective. How are they structured? All the art center guys I have heard of have been very efficient in perspective feng zhu, john park, scott robertson. Back when I was studying architecture, we were taught the measuring point method with tsquares and straight edges. so I never really understood how perspective worked since We were only taught about the process of setting up all the necessary points without teaching us the why.
    The how of perspective is the domain of mathematicians. I have yet to meet an artist or architect who understands more than the basics of perspective, which is perfectly alright to me...

    Last edited by Black Spot; February 8th, 2014 at 02:08 AM. Reason: remove double entry
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  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by eezacque@xs4all.nl View Post
    The how of perspective is the domain of mathematicians. I have yet to meet an artist or architect who understands more than the basics of perspective, which is perfectly alright to me...

    What I meant was we were only taught the steps, like where to put the vanishing points etc. but our teachers did not explain that the vanishing points depend on your vantage point to the object youre drawing, or that the horizon line is your eye level. Most importantly they did nkt encourage us to develop our free hand skills, no wonder very few architects actually have decent sketches nowadays compared to industrial designers.

    Thats why im curious as to how art center trains their students with perspective. I heard john park uses thatmrapidviz book though.

    Last edited by Black Spot; February 8th, 2014 at 02:10 AM. Reason: remove double entry
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  9. #68
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    You know i might have an answer for you there eezacque: I think that perspective rules exist the way they do because of isometric projection. I think this might tie into this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

    Essentially there are some mathematical rules that govern why perspective operates the way it does . because we see a 2d space from a point within that space we project it into 3d.

    HExo: perspective is essentially a number of rules. You have to learn them and follow them, it does get easier, and is worth reading about. For the basics, you cant go wrong with scott robertson. if you want to learn the scale stuff you can check out gary meyer/carl dobsky.


    So just out of interest. Anybody else draw something zoomed out and then when you zoom in it looks all wrong has tonnes of errors etc. like lines in the wrong place... Do you know why this happens?

    this is a good discussion btw

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  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by hexo View Post
    What I meant was we were only taught the steps, like where to put the vanishing points etc. but our teachers did not explain that the vanishing points depend on your vantage point to the object youre drawing, or that the horizon line is your eye level.
    Ah, that means you were not taught all steps. My teachers only told me about the horizon line, but never taught how to construct vanishing points or measure points. In fact, they just taught me that 1-pt, 2-pt, 3-pt, 4-pt perspective is perspective with 1, 2, 3 or 4 vanishing points (gasp). They tried to teach how to construct a square, I noticed how their method was incorrect and decided to buy a decent book on perspective. In some sense, I am grateful for their ignorance, since a competent teacher could easily have convinced me that there was nothing more to learn...

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  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siphonophores View Post
    You know i might have an answer for you there eezacque: I think that perspective rules exist the way they do because of isometric projection. I think this might tie into this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle
    No. Isometric projection is a gross simplification of linear perspective for technical purposes, without much distortion. It has nothing to do with the holographic principle. If you want to suffer the nuts and bolts of perspective, try http://handprint.com/HP/WCL/tech10.html

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  12. #71
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    Yea that is a great site

    I thought the principles were the same, just obviously the formula wasnt highly accurate for iso.

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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovingit View Post
    I imagine as an Isreali you've done your fair share of beasting and being beasted during national service. And let's not forget this stuff has real value over there. It's not just sports in Isreal alas...

    I am an immigrant, I arrived too late for regular service, so all I did was being on the academic reserve. Did not play that out to the end, donned the uniform exactly twice, never got any combat training from the army.

    Though of course it is not just a sport hereabouts. You might have heard of Krav Maga.

    Quote Originally Posted by armando View Post
    Modern combat training, as practiced by national armies(places that train warriors to fight in wars), is not the same as what's taught in a traditional dojo, and all those additional effects can be gotten from various sports.
    Traditional combat training is not done en masse by national armies because it is expensive and takes a long time. Elite units often do learn the same what is taught in a traditional dojo, though, down to sword fighting, sometimes.

    Modern sports have greater health, emotional, cultural, and monetary value, than every traditional martial art combined.
    Are we talking about the same sports which nowadays almost require use of drugs to stay competitive, and leave the practitioners decrepit by the age of thirty-five? And modern sport techniques are often very, very far away from being practically useful. You cannot leap over a fence with a Fosbury flop, or ski over unprepared snow skate-style. Even climbing is often done over predefined handholds nowadays.

    I am sorry, Armando, but you do not seem to know the subject well enough. There is more to the martial art training than physical exercise or competition, or even technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by lovingit View Post
    All I was saying was an Isreali in national service is very likely to encounter life threatening situations all the time. I mean way more likely than say a 19 year old Swede in national service. So your hand to hand combat training (regardless of the likelihood of it being used) is way more relevant.
    That's a bit dramatic, most of the time the life-threat level is much lower than the media seem to enjoy portraying. Though of course it is higher than in Sweden, which is unsurprising given the kind of neighborhood this country is in.

    Most of the time it's the police and border units which have to do any wrestling or subduing. There is no shortage of guys with agendas and hot-headed idiots who enjoy provoking the soldiers by throwing stones or the like. The border guard is in some danger from mines, randomly fired shells, rockets and bullets, and occasional ambushes. Other than that, there is little action seen normally. (You asked about the military, I am not counting the civilians in the areas adjacent to Gaza and three or so in-range cities, which "enjoy" daily mortar and rocket fire. You cannot fight an artillery rocket hand-to-hand, anyway - though I imagine martial arts would help to stay rational under fire. I do remember the mortifying effect of air raid sirens from 2006.)

    I mean I don't think there were many people scratching their noses in class! Maybe we should ask Arenhaus if they teach arm bars or not? My guess is probably!
    They do. Elbow lock is about the easiest useful trick ever.

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  14. #73
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    The problem I have with traditional martial arts is the mystique, and the exaggeration of it's validity in the modern world.

    Quote Originally Posted by arenhaus View Post
    Traditional combat training is not done en masse by national armies because it is expensive and takes a long time. Elite units often do learn the same what is taught in a traditional dojo, though, down to sword fighting, sometimes.
    Soldiers only need to be trained in what they are going to use. The greater percentage of what a modern soldier learns does not resemble what is taught in a dojo. All hand to hand techniques have historical precedent, but they have been modified for use in unlikely contemporary situations, a lot of those old techniques and customs, the bulk of traditional martial arts, have no functional purpose today.
    The average boxer hits harder, faster, more precisely, and with better footwork than the average karate guy. Modern hand striking i.e. pivoting, turning and dropping, combos based on the way people naturally flinch, against people not wearing armor, doesn't come into existence until the 20th century. Now the difference between me and a martial artist, is that I think those things really only have value in a sport situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by arenhaus View Post
    Are we talking about the same sports which nowadays almost require use of drugs to stay competitive, and leave the practitioners decrepit by the age of thirty-five? And modern sport techniques are often very, very far away from being practically useful. You cannot leap over a fence with a Fosbury flop, or ski over unprepared snow skate-style. Even climbing is often done over predefined handholds nowadays.

    I am sorry, Armando, but you do not seem to know the subject well enough. There is more to the martial art training than physical exercise or competition, or even technique.
    I'm looking at the overall situation regarding sports, I'm not worrying too much about the Lance Armstrong types. Monetary value from merchandise sold and jobs generated and gambling, health value from physical exercise, social value because they are done or watched in groups, cultural value because it can bind whole cities and countries in a national ritual.
    A sport technique is practical within the sport in which it's performed.
    I don't know how to make it more clear than to just say that modern combat training is not the same as traditional ancient martial arts. An elbow lock modified and removed out of a traditional system(the art of a martial art) with it's rituals and customs has ceased to be part of that system.
    Modern philosophy and psychology handle what you mention here "There is more to the martial art training than physical exercise or competition, or even technique."

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  15. #74
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    Did I tell you about the time I threw this guy over my head, my foot was meant to hit the stomach but I missed and used a lower part of his anatomy? He didn't come back to class for 3 weeks. "Happy little accidents", as Bob Ross said.

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