The Passive Female - Page 2

Join 500,000+ Artists

Its' free and it takes less than 10 seconds!

Join the #1 Art Workshop - LevelUpJoin Premium Art Workshop

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 97
  1. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    122
    Thanks
    23
    Thanked 50 Times in 32 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I can see how you'd be irritated, and I admit I may have overstated the case. I haven't really thought about this topic much before and I may have gotten carried away by my own train of thought.

    I do not believe that "any nudes that are created as an artistic celebration of form is just an excuse". Many nudes are an artistic celebration of form, without sexual connotations. However, when I, personally, look at Wu's pieces, I see strong erotic overtones. The window-lit bedroom settings, the gossamer, the warm and soft light, and most of all, the overwhelming preponderance of shapely young lasses in wistful or even overtly sexual poses...I really don't see how you can look at that body of work and not see the erotic overtones. If it's just about the human form, why are there no men, no children, no older or less fit women? Why are there no other settings? Why are none of them engaged in activities other than reading?

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  


  2. Hide this ad by registering as a member
  3. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,034
    Thanks
    3,766
    Thanked 1,052 Times in 586 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    No worries. I've taken a few of Wu's classes, I assure you that he does paint men and women of different ages and shapes as well, just not as much. Unfortunately, I didn't take pictures back then :/. As I said, there's a very particular model type that he gravitates towards in most of his work, and that's the foundation. What he does after that has everything to do with the abstract qualities, the color, the texture, the edges, the mood above all. That's why I brought up his 'figure as landscape' analogy. It's not only about the subject, although the handling does work with the subject. It's hard not to see the poetry inherent in female form, although some of those clinical atelier studies do a pretty good job of doing away with it .

    On a tangential note, I don't really equate all eroticism with pornography, it is a human experience in its own right that doesn't always have to do with mere titillation. That's a blurry line though, and I honestly don't think I could do justice to that line of thought in discussion right now.

    But, I've gotta get back to work before the boss comes around. Cheers on the discussion .

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  4. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Cambridge UK
    Posts
    5,460
    Thanks
    6,454
    Thanked 4,519 Times in 2,457 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Benedikt View Post
    The latter is the product of the former and in any case it seems extremely narrow minded to say that in the nature vs nurture debate nature can be disregarded completely.
    I absolutely agree. And we are finding more and more ways that nature and nurture fold round on eachother; children and grandchildren of people who were embryos during a great famine still show differences in their genes compared to babies born before or after the disaster. Your grandmother's prenatal environment will have clear and present effects on who you are, today. And so on.

    Gene methylation, ie switching on and off, adds even an another layer of complexity over the already insanely complex behviour of the genes themselves.
    we are 100% nature + nurture.
    Culture is a very thin skin on the surface; its like the old bromide goes, we're only 3 days from barbarism if the food runs out.

    " I just think it is more beneficial to look at it as if it were a cultural phenomena, instead of anything else, because that means we can change it. And I think it really is cultural, and we really can change it."

    I again agree completely with Benedikt here. Witness the total lack of success and the terrible psychological damage done when mothers were told they were causing schizophrenia in their children by their parenting techniques (yeah that happened), or that being gay is a choice and can be changed. Both schizophrenia and homosexuality are wired in and theres absolutely fuck all culture can do about them aside from understanding this fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post
    . Women in primitive societies have always been expected to do massive amounts of the actual physical work, they didn't just loll around popping out babies. There's a lot of active things to do besides fighting, you know. So saying women evolved to be "passive" is bollocks. .
    TobbA Covered this but I should clarify, im not suggesting women were lazy or incapable of physical or intellectual work, Im saying their sexual role (and by role i mean, the part they play, the image they emply0 has evolved to be the passive one as a result of tournament sexual selection.
    If you disagree, why did 50 shades of grey sell a jillions copies? The fantasies in there were, according to the reviews, generally about being dominated sexually. Not dominated intellectually, financially, just in the bedroom for fun.

    Also, there seems to be this idea that dominance = good and male, and submission = bad and female. Guys want to compete, and win and BE THE MAN. The worst thing a guy can be is sexually submissive, once a cocksucker always a cockucker eh? "You cant control your woman, youre weak!" And less so recently but historically definitely, woe betide that a woman be dominant; that makes her 'mannish'. I infer no such moral positions from sexual ones, any more than I inately support the white pieces in chess because Im caucasian.
    I am saying that passivity might be a strategy to attract males, and does not represent real submissiveness, much as dominance behaviour is a strategy (to demonstrate fitness) and earn the right to breed with females even thogh big muscles dont necessarily eaqual good genes. Gaming these strategies for personal benefit is why we might go to the gym to build our muscles or wear make up that makes our lips seem engorged with blood.
    Like Sid says, a lot of this says more about you than it does about the work in question.

    The only way all this nonsense will be squashed is when people can select the gender they prefer to physically appear as.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; December 13th, 2013 at 09:41 PM.
    sb most art copied to page 1
    Weapons of Mass Creation 2011 ::: Add your favourites!
    skype: velocitykendall
    facebook: Alface Killah
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  5. #34
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    3,180
    Thanks
    752
    Thanked 2,356 Times in 1,211 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    TobbA Covered this but I should clarify, im not suggesting women were lazy or incapable of physical or intellectual work, Im saying their sexual role has evolved to be the passive one as a result of tournament sexual selection
    Oh, it's a lot more complicated than that. Even when it comes to sex it's hardly a matter of a guy doing everything and the woman receiving everything. Because if you are passive and submissive, someone who is more active and socially manipulative is going to poach your testeroney protector. Or you may lose your chance at getting a better testeroney protector.

    I think pictures of passive women are kind of like pictures of Jesus healing the sick. Wishful thinking. It's like "wouldn't it be nice if I could just get orgasms without having to do anything". And that goes for dominance fantasies too. They're mostly a convoluted way to fantasize about orgasms without guilt. "Wouldn't it be great if some guy I totally want to screw JUST HAPPENED to force me to do everything that I would do in a second if it weren't socially frowned-upon."

    *** Sketchbook * Landscapes * Portfolio * Store***

    "There are two kinds of students: the self-taught and the hopeless."
    - Dr. Piotr Rudnicki
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  6. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Cambridge UK
    Posts
    5,460
    Thanks
    6,454
    Thanked 4,519 Times in 2,457 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    "Oh, it's a lot more complicated than that. Even when it comes to sex it's hardly a matter of a guy doing everything and the woman receiving everything. Because if you are passive and submissive, someone who is more active and socially manipulative is going to poach your testeroney protector. Or you may lose your chance at getting a better testeroney protector."

    Now youre talking! And we're into the game theory of sexual selection... which is insanely interesting reading by the way...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_action_pattern

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; December 13th, 2013 at 10:40 PM.
    sb most art copied to page 1
    Weapons of Mass Creation 2011 ::: Add your favourites!
    skype: velocitykendall
    facebook: Alface Killah
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  7. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Cambridge UK
    Posts
    5,460
    Thanks
    6,454
    Thanked 4,519 Times in 2,457 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by tobbA View Post
    Yeah. I think that when we stereotype things we tend to take small biological differences and exaggerate them. Men are seen as actors, while women are seen as passive victims. Or if you look at comic book covers, women are seen as bendy and flexible, while the men are rigid and strong.
    exactly, the artist plucks the archetype from reality and buffs it.

    someone asked about an evolution of women in art as a function of time. i cant provid ethat but this might be germaine.

    The Passive Female

    over the years artists have found ways to embellish mickey's childlike (neotenous) features to ellicit the cute response from people. thats the thing that makes people, especially women, go aww when then see a baby's big eyes, small muzzle and cute ickle fingers. kids love it too. it opens parents wallets.
    theyve also been evolving out the stuff that looks like an adult monster rat thing; long spiky face, long whip tail, tiny beady eyes, small hand to head size etc.

    artists do the same thing for strong powerful dudes and sexy inviting chicks lounging on sofas. The mistake is thinking sexual posturing is the same as desire for interpersonal dominance. it might be fun to be sexually dominated for a while, but not so much in the work place or marriage for years.
    i dont think theres anything wrong with this posturing or media featuring it per se, and i dont want us to 'grow out of it', just recognise it for what it is; our animal past shone through the prism of culture and selected for in a large part by its automatically broad appeal; sex sells..
    the reason we have trouble with this? no idea, but chimps have different theory of mind abilities during different tasks. during competitive tasks, they can accurately model the mental states of their opponants, cooperatively this isnt so much the case.. might be something like that going on..

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; December 14th, 2013 at 12:20 AM.
    sb most art copied to page 1
    Weapons of Mass Creation 2011 ::: Add your favourites!
    skype: velocitykendall
    facebook: Alface Killah
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  8. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Near Philly, US
    Posts
    350
    Thanks
    82
    Thanked 262 Times in 131 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Beeston View Post
    Solution is simple. Paint more active women.
    Or--
    More women [than men] actively painting.

    Name:  guerrillagirls.jpg
Views: 884
Size:  36.8 KB

    “In 1985 a group of female artists from New York, the Guerrilla Girls, began to protest the under-representation of female artists. According to them, male artists and the male viewpoint continued to dominate the visual art world. In a 1989 poster (displayed on NYC buses) titled "Do women have to be naked to get into the Met. Museum?" they reported that less than 5% of the artists in the Modern Art sections of the Met. Museum were women, but 85% of the nudes were female.”

    ANDROCENTRISM

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  9. #38
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    the Netherlands - Rotterdam
    Posts
    1,741
    Thanks
    157
    Thanked 209 Times in 127 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    vk and benedikt. I still disagree. Of course there are biological differences between the sexes. Gender inequality (and gender studies as a whole)however isn't about the actual sexes but about the way we perceive our socially constructed gender roles. There is a difference between being female and the ideas in our heads about what constitutes "female-ness".

    The creation of thousands of images with docile woman on them is saying something about how we perceive the female gender. These ideas are constructed and have little to do with our biology and everything to do with our culture and politics.

    edit: the problem for me with using scientific observations about our sex to say something about our gender is that these observations become part of our ideas about gender and because of that lose all there scientific credibility. How easily is an observation that females tend to be more caring, nurturing, emphatic (or whatever) used to actually advocate gender inequality. The step, females are more caring, nurturing and emphatic so females should be house-wives isn't really that big.

    Last edited by D.Labruyere; December 14th, 2013 at 10:10 AM.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  10. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Fallingwater
    Posts
    5,076
    Thanks
    1,516
    Thanked 5,159 Times in 1,706 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    "Socially constructed gender roles"

    What about biologically-emergent gender roles? In what sense can you separate societal morés from biology?

    I believe that ideology is holding you back, D. You are shutting down the scientific method by refusing to allow in certain strains of information because you can't tolerate them morally. But the reality is, you can't investigate something scientifically while also viewing it through a prism of morality. In order to really have investigative rigor, you must be willing to think all possible thoughts.

    At least Icarus tried!


    My Process: Dead Rider Graphic Novel (Dark Horse Comics) plus oil paintings, pencils and other goodies:
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=101106

    My "Smilechild" Music. Plus a medley of Commercial Music Cues and a Folksy Jingle!:
    http://www.myspace.com/kevferrara
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  11. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Near Philly, US
    Posts
    350
    Thanks
    82
    Thanked 262 Times in 131 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Labruyere View Post
    These ideas are constructed and have little to do with our biology and everything to do with our culture and politics.
    “Human nature is deeper and broader than the artificial contrivance of any existing culture.”

    “The genes hold culture on a leash. The leash is very long, but inevitably values will be constrained in accordance with their effects on the human gene pool.”

    “The first is that no species, ours included, possesses a purpose beyond the imperatives created by its genetic history. Species may have vast potential for material and mental progress but they lack any immanent purpose or guidance from agents beyond their immediate environment or even an evolutionary goal toward which their molecular architecture automatically steers them. I believe that the human mind is constructed in a way that locks it inside this fundamental constraint and forces it to make choices with a purely biological instrument. If the brain evolved by natural selection, even the capacities to select particular esthetic judgments and religious beliefs must have arisen by the same mechanistic process. They are either direct adaptations to past environments in which the ancestral human populations evolved or at most constructions thrown up secondarily by deeper, less visible activities that were once adaptive in this stricter, biological sense.
    The essence of the argument, then, is that the brain exists because it promotes the survival and multiplication of the genes that direct its assembly. The human mind is a device for survival and reproduction, and reason is just one of its various techniques. Steven Weinberg has pointed out that physical reality remains so mysterious even to physicists because of the extreme improbability that it was constructed to be understood by the human mind. We can reverse that insight to note with still greater force that the intellect was not constructed to understand atoms or even to understand itself but to promote the survival of human genes. The reflective person knows that his life is in some incomprehensible manner guided through a biological ontogeny, a more or less fixed order of life stages. He senses that with all the drive, wit, love, pride, anger, hope, and anxiety that characterize the species he will in the end be sure only of helping to perpetuate the same cycle. Poets have defined this truth as tragedy. Yeats called it the coming of wisdom:

    Though leaves are many, the root is one;
    Through all the lying days of my youth
    I swayed my leaves and flowers in the sun;
    Now I may wither into the truth.

    The first dilemma, in a word, is that we have no particular place to go…"

    – E. O. Wilson

    Last edited by bill618; December 14th, 2013 at 01:45 PM.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  12. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    the Netherlands - Rotterdam
    Posts
    1,741
    Thanks
    157
    Thanked 209 Times in 127 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I am starting to get really confused and have the feeling that I am getting moronic or something...
    We are aware that many females are portrayed as passive but our very ability to be aware of that is based in ideology(feminism) and after that we say it is wrong(or right) which is morality. Of course we can investigate and explain why. But shouldn't we be aware that after the investigating part is over and we start making further claims (be they ideological or moral or political or etc...) about any subject based on science, that science itself will also be seen through that prism of morality?

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  13. #42
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    1,358
    Thanks
    242
    Thanked 356 Times in 276 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    And then there's that wonderful human capacity to choose to go a different way. Just because we can.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  14. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,569
    Thanks
    362
    Thanked 683 Times in 431 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    The male body is a superior machine for generating force and power, thicker bones, stronger muscles, tendons and joints, it makes sense that it would be chosen to illustrate force and power in action pictures, kind of like a lever would be good for illustrating leverage. Other than that it is hard to have an opinion when I'm not seeing concrete examples of these paintings, don't know what the woman is symbolizing. Thing is, it's possible to have a great painting celebrating the passive side of women, and I don't see how even an averagely successful image of that could be offensive. It makes sense to make an illustration by drawing a woman as a generative power, and a man as a shaping power.
    The real failure of "artists" today is one of homogenous viewpoint, supposedly art, and especially sci-fi, are supposed to be about possibilities. There's actually more cultural discrimination against men, in particular against blacks and latinos, than their is against women.

    Last edited by armando; December 14th, 2013 at 06:38 PM.
    Sketchbook

    "Beliefs are rules for action"
    "Knowledge is proven in action."
    "It's use is it's meaning."
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  15. #44
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    3,180
    Thanks
    752
    Thanked 2,356 Times in 1,211 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by armando View Post
    The male body is a superior machine for generating force and power, thicker bones, stronger muscles, tendons and joints, it makes sense that it would be chosen to illustrate force and power in action pictures, kind of like a lever would be good for illustrating leverage. Other than that it is hard to have an opinion when I'm not seeing concrete examples of these paintings, don't know what the woman is symbolizing. Thing is, it's possible to have a great painting celebrating the passive side of women, and I don't see how even an averagely successful image of that could be offensive. It makes sense to make an illustration by drawing a woman as a generative power, and a man as a shaping power.
    The real failure of "artists" today is one of homogenous viewpoint, supposedly art, and especially sci-fi, are supposed to be about possibilities. There's actually more cultural discrimination against men, in particular against blacks and latinos, than their is against women.
    It can be offensive because it is as though some men do not notice the actions women take. It is as if you worked hard to help your friends and family and one day you overheard them saying "oh yeah, that Armando... he never does anything" and you realized that nothing you did was even seen, much less appreciated. All people want to do work that is meaningful and be given credit for the work that they do.

    And if you think there is cultural discrimination against minority men, think about the discrimination against minority women, who get shafted from both sides.

    *** Sketchbook * Landscapes * Portfolio * Store***

    "There are two kinds of students: the self-taught and the hopeless."
    - Dr. Piotr Rudnicki
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  16. #45
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,569
    Thanks
    362
    Thanked 683 Times in 431 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    You didn't understand my post and you don't understand race politics. Women are absorbed into the culture, men are treated like the enemy, the whole thing with "culture" is an illusion anyway... I can only comment on America, but over here there is only one culture, the races are really just brands. " I don't see how even an averagely successful image ...", I mean a picture that successfully illustrates that one aspect of femininity, but there is no point in arguing about pictures without specific examples.

    Sketchbook

    "Beliefs are rules for action"
    "Knowledge is proven in action."
    "It's use is it's meaning."
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  17. #46
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    10,263
    Thanks
    3,535
    Thanked 5,477 Times in 3,686 Posts
    Follows
    1
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by armando View Post
    Thing is, it's possible to have a great painting celebrating the passive side of women, and I don't see how even an averagely successful image of that could be offensive.
    Sure, but it sort of gets very repetitive

    Name:  $_35.JPG
Views: 827
Size:  24.9 KBName:  296_1.jpg
Views: 849
Size:  22.2 KB
    Name:  2226.jpg
Views: 814
Size:  22.4 KBName:  25441.jpg
Views: 806
Size:  23.5 KB
    Name:  379487.jpg
Views: 815
Size:  42.7 KBName:  b3739.jpg
Views: 812
Size:  23.1 KB
    Name:  dur_dbm_207_large.jpg
Views: 813
Size:  25.5 KBName:  mlqrokZWoE-LZ22Qgld_Grg.jpg
Views: 828
Size:  23.2 KB
    Name:  N-F0001-002-reclining-nude.jpg
Views: 838
Size:  30.3 KBName:  Quality-Art-Repro-oil-paintings-nude-girl-in-bed-24x36.jpg
Views: 992
Size:  16.9 KB
    Name:  RecliningNude12x22.jpg
Views: 821
Size:  52.4 KBName:  reclining-nude-ii-2009-oil-on-canvas-90x120cm-ccfa-exhibition-traditional-prize-peoples-chice-wi.jpg
Views: 817
Size:  16.8 KB
    Name:  rk-2.jpg
Views: 779
Size:  21.8 KBName:  size1.jpg
Views: 793
Size:  39.9 KB
    Name:  The_white_sheet-1152526872.jpg
Views: 792
Size:  26.6 KBName:  walter.sickert.painting.4.jpg
Views: 796
Size:  16.9 KB
    Name:  big.jpg
Views: 804
Size:  26.6 KBName:  DSCN6547.jpg
Views: 812
Size:  20.6 KB
    Name:  martha-walter-nude-in-bed-original-size-15x18-oil-on-board.jpg
Views: 803
Size:  19.6 KBName:  my_dream_figurative_paintin-4.jpg
Views: 792
Size:  56.3 KB
    Name:  nude-oil-painting-2.jpg
Views: 975
Size:  8.7 KBName:  Open-Book.jpg
Views: 779
Size:  13.5 KB
    Name:  P Kavanagh Morning.jpg
Views: 789
Size:  19.6 KBName:  Reclining Nude.jpg
Views: 850
Size:  36.0 KB

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Black Spot For This Useful Post:


  19. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Haifa, Israel
    Posts
    4,112
    Thanks
    2,350
    Thanked 2,318 Times in 1,425 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    You do realize that it is simply easier to pose for a painting when lying down relaxed, than in other positions?

    Collections of samples prove nothing. Here are some paintings of passive male nudes:

    Name:  800px-Carlos_Baca-Flor_-_Reclining_nude.jpg
Views: 859
Size:  66.0 KB
    Name:  722px-Henry_Scott_Tuke_-_The_Sunbathers.jpg
Views: 839
Size:  123.3 KB
    Name:  783px-S_sebast.jpg
Views: 799
Size:  140.8 KB
    Name:  blue-velvet-225.jpg
Views: 915
Size:  136.2 KB
    Name:  Reaching-Peter+270+deg+left.jpg
Views: 818
Size:  96.6 KB
    Name:  2012-original-oil-painting-art-male-nude-lying-on-the-floor-hongtao--huang.jpg
Views: 1588
Size:  107.1 KB

    And here are some paintings of alert, confident female nudes:

    Name:  Before_a_Mirror_by_Robert_Wiedemann_Barret_Browning.jpg
Views: 808
Size:  79.8 KB
    Name:  article-1037180-020902DC00000578-243_468x388.jpg
Views: 9881
Size:  46.6 KB
    Name:  400px-1637_Rubens_Fortuna_anagoria.JPG
Views: 808
Size:  72.9 KB
    Name:  lossy-page1-486px-Lucretia_by_Lucas_Cranach_the_Elder_in_Basel.tif.jpg
Views: 866
Size:  74.3 KB
    Name:  Gallen_Kallela_Ad_astra.jpg
Views: 780
Size:  143.2 KB
    Name:  Godward_-_Campaspe.jpg
Views: 787
Size:  279.7 KB
    Name:  486px-Keller-Kauernder-Akt.jpg
Views: 790
Size:  64.3 KB

    And it is far easier to encounter any kind of people actually doing something in pictures that feature groups and subjects, rather than paintings of single posing models. This includes female nudes:

    Name:  351px-Badande_kullor_av_Anders_Zorn_1906.jpg
Views: 778
Size:  48.6 KB
    Name:  609px-Arthur_Hacker_-_The_Sea-Maid.jpg
Views: 798
Size:  97.0 KB
    Name:  Etienne_Dinet_Baigneuses.jpg
Views: 782
Size:  60.0 KB

    Sure it is repetitive if you go and select specifically the paintings of passive women. But the selection will not represent the whole range of what is out there, and even if you personally are bored with studies of reclining models, it is no reason to say that everyone should stop painting studies of reclined models.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  20. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    314
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 295 Times in 90 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Factuality of the original premise is highly questionable. There is abundance of girl action all throughout the art history. And some of the subjects reappear over and over, much like the reclining nude.

    What about all the Michelangelo's tomboys, all the Madonnas pulling their tit out, all the high-frenzy Assumptions of the Virgin, all the dominant Eves handing out apples to countless clueless Adams, all the Sabine women fighting off mass rapists? Numerous Judiths decapitating Holoferneses, Thetises pumping up Achiles for battles, full-armored Athenas defeating Areses, Galateas riding waves, Heras fighting giants, Medeas killing their children? What about endless stream of Flemish genre paintings, including mentioned Vermeer, focusing on women playing music, reading, painting, playing cards, dancing, drinking, flirting... What about ubiquitous Delacroix's topless crazy lady walking on corpses calling herself no less than "Liberty"? All the Degas ballerinas, all the Lempicka smug iconic flappers, all the Schiele nudes asserting their genitalia in not so reclining ways...

    And those are just off the top of my head, from the highbrow western art history. Should I go on?

    So what are we talking about here then? Are we even talking, or we're just acting as ventriloquy dummies for the bogus ideology that Feminism 2.0 is?

    Name:  K4.3Hera.jpg
Views: 746
Size:  52.4 KB

    Name:  525px-Judith_Leyster_-_Self-Portrait_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
Views: 750
Size:  65.9 KB

    Name:  749px-Honthorst,_Gerard_van_-_Merry_Company_-_1623.jpg
Views: 738
Size:  80.5 KB

    Name:  Caravaggio_Judith_Beheading_Holofernes.jpg
Views: 781
Size:  315.4 KB

    Name:  Caravaggio+-+Buona+ventura,+Roma+-+Tutt'Art@+1.jpg
Views: 799
Size:  245.5 KB

    Name:  Edgar_Degas_-_Dance_Class.jpg
Views: 784
Size:  393.1 KB

    Name:  Egon_Schiele_20111108_bo_10.jpg
Views: 777
Size:  271.2 KB

    Name:  jansteen_theartistsfamily.jpg
Views: 761
Size:  441.3 KB

    Name:  Delacroix-Pic0042.jpg
Views: 766
Size:  315.0 KB

    Name:  virgin_a.jpg
Views: 730
Size:  398.3 KB

    Name:  liberty-leading-the-people-eugc3a8ne-delacroix-1830.jpg
Views: 753
Size:  408.1 KB

    Name:  painting-athena.jpg
Views: 720
Size:  71.9 KB

    Name:  tdlgree2.jpg
Views: 740
Size:  292.9 KB

    Name:  The_Intervention_of_the_Sabine_Women.jpg
Views: 751
Size:  377.2 KB

    Name:  The-Triumph-of-Galatea.jpg
Views: 743
Size:  404.6 KB

    Name:  titian.adam&eve.jpg
Views: 717
Size:  69.9 KB

    Name:  Wilhelm+August+Lebrecht+Amberg+(1822-99).jpg
Views: 716
Size:  108.9 KB

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  21. #49
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    10,263
    Thanks
    3,535
    Thanked 5,477 Times in 3,686 Posts
    Follows
    1
    Following
    0
    Well I was keeping 'Tits out for the Boys' for a later thread LeCan - way to ruin a girl's fun.

    Yes, arenhaus, there are a few passive males amongst the females, but when you go looking, females far out number the males. And, yes, there are active females, but I was moaning about the predominance of the passive female and it's getting worse these days as artists are less likely to paint multiple figure compositions, mainly in oils. What started out as the odd study of the female body is becoming a torrent, well it is on my time line on FB. As I said before - they are studies; the reliance of current artists on the model to create a titillating piece with pushing themselves further is to be deprecated.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  22. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    2,337
    Thanks
    1,074
    Thanked 2,199 Times in 1,055 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I just want to point out that all the talk through the centuries of men being the "dominant" and "competitive" ones and women being the "passive" and "nurturing" ones has come primarily from men. Women have not, typically, had a voice. At least not one that's been recorded for posterity. Likewise, they've historically had no CHANCE to be "dominant" in society, because they'd get beaten up/burned at the stake/beheaded/etc if they tried, unless they were very very lucky and fell into the right circumstances in the right place at the right time. So being billed as "passive" has never been exactly a choice. Until recently. And now that we HAVE a voice, guess what, we're saying "Who the hell are you calling passive? We don't have to take this lying down, you know."

    And if you think women don't have competitive and aggressive instincts, you've never experienced high school girls from a girl's point of view. They can put any man to shame for sheer competitive ferocity. (There was actually a study on how women become super-aggressive and competitive as they enter sexual maturity, so that's not just anecdotal. It is, in fact, a thing.)

    Also, how in hell does being "social" or "nurturing" equate to "passive"? Someone explain THAT without coming off as condescending.(And oh how I HATE that term "nurturing". It makes me think of people thinking "oh, you're female so you want to have babies!" I ain't "nurturing". I have no desire to be "nurturing". Get this "nurturing" business away from me.)

    And as an aside, BDSM is a whole other complicated thing and probably has precious little to do with any of this, especially considering both sexes seem to like both submissive and dominating sex play. I mean, you do get plenty of masochistic men wanting to roleplay with dominatrix figures. There's women who make a living off that.

    Okay, yeah, ranting... But whenever people start trying to dig around for "evolutionary" excuses as to "why women are basically-like-this-stereotype-here" it triggers my rant button something fierce. The reality is more messy and complicated. It's like a large portion of history has been this huge abusive relationship perpetuated by both parties, and one of the parties is just starting to come to their senses. (Slooowly. Of course there's still a lot of baggage.)

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  23. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    2,337
    Thanks
    1,074
    Thanked 2,199 Times in 1,055 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Another point, just remember that for every female who likes "Fifty Shades of Gray", there's probably another female who likes languorous, helpless tied-up bishies... Just sayin'... When women make their own porn, this is the kind of stuff that proliferates.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  24. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Cambridge UK
    Posts
    5,460
    Thanks
    6,454
    Thanked 4,519 Times in 2,457 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    "But whenever people start trying to dig around for "evolutionary" excuses as to "why women are basically-like-this-stereotype-here" it triggers my rant button something fierce. "

    what else is there? apart from evolution? you think culture isnt just an artefact of it?
    anyway youre conflating acceptance of symbolic sexual submission and dominance behaviours with support or tolerance of oppressive interpersonal interactions in other circumstances,. no one wants to be dominated by a horrible boss or abusive husband, but lots of people like to fantasize about being dominated for 15 minutes in the bedroom. some kind of evolutionary support for fascism isnt my deal at all.



    We are 100% a product of evolution, and the sexual game theory that played out . the problem is the answer for why there are a lot of paintings of chicks is banal and doesnt sit well with modern people who like to at least believe that we can pick our own roles in society.
    "Also, how in hell does being "social" or "nurturing" equate to "passive?"
    because of the circumstances of our evolutionary past, our sexual behaviour has taken the shape it has. the female lies down and the male sticks his dick in her. so a happy looking woman presenting her vag is going to turn guys on, its a powerful symbol. it also happens that men being physically stronger and sexually competitive, used to taking the role of warrior leader, decided they were going to run things and oppress women to secondary citizen roles. its the same pattern pretty much everywhere. so there was a class of people almost all male who were able to sit around drawing and painting for money instead of toiling in the fields. and oh what a surprise they draw naked chicks. wow!
    and now, much later when women where I live are thankfully equal partners in the human race, we get rightly annoyed about this when we see it.

    like candra said, we are unique in our position to actually notice this stuff, and use it as a basis for planning action. youre just ignoring most of the map by angrily dismissing it. sperm whales and bonobos just do this nasty brutish redclawed stuff hobbesian style BRAP BRAP BRAP and dont give a fuck why. we actually have learned, through conscious experience, that making someone a second class citizen because of the way they were born is a Bad Thing.
    at least we now have the much-bemoaned political correctness enshrining equality and banning discrimonation against women, gays, people with differentracial heritages, people with medical conditions etc, and hopefully making it permanently unacceptable.

    We say, "I will," and "I will not," and imagine ourselves (though we obey the orders of some prosaic person every day) our own masters, when the truth is that our masters are sleeping. One wakes within us and we are ridden like beasts, though the rider is but some hitherto unguessed part of ourselves.
    The book of the new Sun


    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; December 16th, 2013 at 01:27 AM.
    sb most art copied to page 1
    Weapons of Mass Creation 2011 ::: Add your favourites!
    skype: velocitykendall
    facebook: Alface Killah
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  25. #53
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Haifa, Israel
    Posts
    4,112
    Thanks
    2,350
    Thanked 2,318 Times in 1,425 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I just suspect that there is a lot of selective attention going here. If you seek proof that the bad male chauvinist artists are forcing poor oppressed women into posing asleep, then you can find a metric ton of pictures that look like that. If you seek proof that the bad gay artists are forcing poor oppressed men into posing with demure expressions on their faces, then you can find a metric ton of pictures that look like that, too. If you seek proof that the bad perverted artists are forcing poor anime characters into posing in the evil clutches of many-tentacled Lovecraftian abominations, why yes, you can find a metric ton of pictures that look like that. If you seek proof that the artists are into drawing flowers, you also can find another metric ton of pictures to support your idea...

    If you decide to get selective, then there is no limit to the "confirmation" you can get.

    I doubt anyone did any actual trustworthy statistics, though.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  26. #54
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    314
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 295 Times in 90 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Confirmation bias is a bitch.
    'Scuse my exquisite french and my shallow pun tendencies.

    @Black Spot
    Nowadays tits are flashed predominantly against things, not for them. Especially if these things are boys. The magic and rationale behind this gesture eludes my comprehension capacities. Maybe some of the females here could shed some light. Here's the raw research material

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  27. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    314
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 295 Times in 90 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    A bit of corollary regarding Wu. I'm not a big fan but his brushwork is heaps more salacious than his subject matter. How much of a philistine one needs to be to give primacy to the latter when validating his work?

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  28. #56
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    1,358
    Thanks
    242
    Thanked 356 Times in 276 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Girls have always flashed their tits at boys as a come on. I didn't personally, mainly because I don't have any tits. But also because I was incredibly shy at school. Oh, how life beats that out of us.

    I'm not familiar with Wu's work but, going by what I saw of it via Siddarth's links, I reckon they'd work much better seen in real life than on a computer screen. Hence, no comment on them from me.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  29. #57
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    10,263
    Thanks
    3,535
    Thanked 5,477 Times in 3,686 Posts
    Follows
    1
    Following
    0
    arenhaus, the images I posted came up on the first page of google - I didn't have to go looking for them like I'd have to do for the pictures you posted. I had a ton more all with slight variations on the same pose. It wouldn't be quite so bad if there was a little more imagination shown like the below - now that is the porn of the day.

    Name:  21082-Boucher, Francois.jpg
Views: 627
Size:  28.3 KB

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  30. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Fallingwater
    Posts
    5,076
    Thanks
    1,516
    Thanked 5,159 Times in 1,706 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Most artists have been male. Most male artists find attractive nude women to be the most beautiful things in the world. Most artists can't draw or paint nearly as well without the model. Paintings, to be considered fine, needed to be drawn and painted really well. It takes quite a bit of time to paint a model well. But models are merely flesh, generally aren't endurance athletes and thus tire rapidly, and thus will be able to hold poses longer and with less strain if they are supported by comfortable furniture.

    Given all of the above, the vast majority of realistic figural art should naturally be of a nude girl reposed on some kind of a couch.

    Next question.

    At least Icarus tried!


    My Process: Dead Rider Graphic Novel (Dark Horse Comics) plus oil paintings, pencils and other goodies:
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=101106

    My "Smilechild" Music. Plus a medley of Commercial Music Cues and a Folksy Jingle!:
    http://www.myspace.com/kevferrara
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  31. #59
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    10,263
    Thanks
    3,535
    Thanked 5,477 Times in 3,686 Posts
    Follows
    1
    Following
    0
    No they shouldn't - they can be doing stuff like the below. Stop being lazy.

    Name:  nymphs-and-satyr.jpg
Views: 623
Size:  52.6 KB

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  32. #60
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,034
    Thanks
    3,766
    Thanked 1,052 Times in 586 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Candra H View Post
    I'm not familiar with Wu's work but, going by what I saw of it via Siddarth's links, I reckon they'd work much better seen in real life than on a computer screen. Hence, no comment on them from me.
    Yeah, they're even better in real life, like most traditional work. Most of the images of his paintings online are tiny, so that doesn't help. This is one of the only very good large images I know of.

    The Passive Female

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Members who have read this thread: 7

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
  • 424,149 Artists
  • 3,599,276 Artist Posts
  • 32,941 Sketchbooks
  • 54 New Art Jobs
Art Workshop Discount Inside
Register

Developed Actively by vBSocial.com
The Art Department
SpringOfSea's Sketchbook