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    the Syria Question

    So American forces are "ready" to launch strikes on Syria, I personally hope they don't.

    It seems the US is using the savior excuse to go in again, it smells fishy to me.

    I mean it seems to me if you want to save people, there plenty out there that won't require a war to do so.

    What do you all think?

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    Its a toughy. we know the syrian government is killing thousands of citizens and displacing millions, which is fine, but now theyve maybe used chemical weapons. so by our own rules and lets be honest at least lip service to our consciences we have to try and protect the people Assad is killing... but we also know that an incursion could well be a disaster.
    not just for the people there, but for the american economy which is what westeners are really worried about.
    i dont envy obama, or the people getting chopped up by artillery and gassed.

    why tho is gas a red line but blowing up kids is ok? i read about sarin. its not nice. it an oily liquid that evapourates and clogs the gaps between nerves with tiny shaped blocks of a chemical that prevents the signal chemicals getting through between brain and muscles. so you spasm and suffocate. it hangs around in stuff for hours and you can take it in from touching someone with it on them or their stuff as well as breathing the vapour. its the kind of thing we wish we could uninvent, but frankly id rather asphyxiate than be blown in half by the shell that atomises my mum and dad, or just shot.


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...fying-chart/?1

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; August 27th, 2013 at 04:27 PM.
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    Why is the line gas? Apparently we're okay with 24 000 people dying of hunger everyday, thats just africa By the way...

    Seems strange to me that they'd risk another massive conflict.

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    Whatever Obama does , it will be used against the democrats in 2016. He will either be an AL Qaeda sympathizer or hardhearted isolationist. He can't win on this one. Let Someone else go in like the UN or the EU or individual countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Whatever Obama does , it will be used against the democrats in 2016. He will either be an AL Qaeda sympathizer or hardhearted isolationist. He can't win on this one. Let Someone else go in like the UN or the EU or individual countries.
    Isn't Obama already on his second term? am I remembering wrong here or don't the US only allow 8 year presidentsies? EU won't go in, I honestly think most european countries are prepared to see it play it self out, not baseing that in fact though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Incinerated View Post
    EU won't go in, I honestly think most european countries are prepared to see it play it self out, not baseing that in fact though.

    in that case Addisad will have killed hundreds of thousands of people and successfully bluffed the whole thing out.
    even with that diagram i dont even understand all the tribes and things in and around syria to know what they all want from it.
    personally id strike assad and his generals with cruise missiles but i might trigger a nuclear war. glad im not in charge!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Incinerated View Post
    Isn't Obama already on his second term? am I remembering wrong here or don't the US only allow 8 year presidentsies? EU won't go in, I honestly think most european countries are prepared to see it play it self out, not baseing that in fact though.
    Yes 8 year terms max but I was talking about the Democratic party. The problem is you can't save everyone all the time. There are always species on the brink or people about to die. Without knowing who we are helping to gain power its not a good idea to get involved. Its the old Scorpion and the frog tale

    A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
    scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
    frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion
    says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

    The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
    the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
    paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
    but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

    Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

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    stupid scorpion

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    also, what if Assad didnt give the go ahead, and it was the work of a mad general or small cabal of soldiers? or the rebels? or some third party? what does russia and china think? and iran? no one seems to know whats going on except theres a lot of dead people with no visible wounds.

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    I'd like to see Assad gone. He's a relatively recent dictator. He took power some times in the late 90's, when his dad died. He had a chance to make things better and totally fucked up.

    My main concern with the Iraq War was, sure, no one liked Saddam, but how do you take him out without there being a bloodbath? In Syria, there's already a bloodbath. All it needs is a tip of the scale to help end the standoff. It's been over two years now.

    The main argument against entering this is the new government won't be any better, and they'll be radical islamists.

    Well, if we help them, it still garners us more favor than if we don't. And, in the meantime at least things can begin to settle down again.

    I would want an international effort to strike at Assad and then maintain a peacekeeping force once he's gone.

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    I agree. The way to win the war on terror isnt to keep continually attacking people who are likely to be radicalised, but help them.
    ive been watching house of cards. i wonder what those people are doing at the moment.

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    Both fighting sides in Syria are bad. Who are you going to support, the Saudi-backed mercenaries trying to oust the Alavite government so they can oppress the Shiites in Syria and weaken Iran's influence in the region, or the minority Alavite government backed by Iran so they can maintain the Shiite access to the Mediterranean and prevent Saudi/Sunnite incursion? You will be picking between two theocracies battling for influence, and whichever one of them wins, everyone else is going to lose, first of all the population of Syria. That one side is a marionette dictatorship backed by one of the most oppressive powers of the region, and the other one a guerrilla force styling itself freedom-fighting rebels but backed by the other of the most oppressive powers of the region, is immaterial. You'll be backing one style of radical Islam over another.

    It's not even clear who used the gas, the dictatorship or the guerrillas. It's a mess.

    And I am sitting less than a hundred miles from this mess. The least thing I want is US/UK stirring up the hornet's nest even more.

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    Arenhaus I think that was my initial thought, if the US/UK goes in we're in the best case likely to have a Egypt type situation, and alot of fresh anger towards West and Isreal.

    the only way i see it ending the "right way" is letting them fight it out.

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    John McCain kept saying the Iraqi WMDs were shipped to Syria. I think it was a lucky guess. Even if he was right I'm glad his wrinkly old fingers aint touchin the red button.
    The "woops we dropped some guns" approach works. The only problem is I think we fought the Syrian rebels when they were Iraqi rebels. VKs graph is pretty accurate.
    It's too fucked up watching people get gassed by weapons we sold to their crazy neighbor and invaded to retrieve only to come up empty handed. We should at least drop hazmat suits.

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    "That one side is a marionette dictatorship backed by one of the most oppressive powers of the region, and the other one a guerrilla force styling itself freedom-fighting rebels but backed by the other of the most oppressive powers of the region"

    Those are the political sides. I don't care about that. What I care about are the human beings on each side who just want peace and order restored. Assad comes from a dictatorship that's lasted for decades. It's time for a new kind of government there. In 2013, I hope the people there could come up with something better.

    The other main argument for intervention is that it'd be a quagmire. America could quickly oust Assad in a matter of weeks. The question is, would that lead to peace, or are his soldiers ready to lead a resistance afterward?

    As for the argument, don't stir the hornet's nest - LOL, look at it. It's already been dipped in gasoline and lit on fire.

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    Adding more war to already existing war is always the worst possible solution. No matter how humane sounding casus belli you wave to justify it.

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    What about Libya then? If there's a way to shorten a war, isn't that a good thing?

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    TASmith I suppose so, I just have a gut feeling that we need to stay out this time.

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    I don't know if I think just going in telling everybody how they should rule their own country is the solution. It's terrible what's happening. But maybe some things just need to play themselves out. As long as it's an internal conflict I don't see how military intervention by a 3rd party is a good idea.

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    Again, what about Libya? In fact, what about Libya? Anyone know what's going on there these days?

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    They all need to go down this route http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Turkey, and I know it's not perfect, but it's better than a lot of other examples, like the US saying the world should think like them. And please, don't cite me human rights violations there, as I know, but there are fewer than in the rest of the Middle East conflict areas.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Incinerated View Post
    Why is the line gas? Apparently we're okay with 24 000 people dying of hunger everyday, thats just africa By the way...
    One is death because of doing nothing (it happens if nothing is done), the other is an attack on people.

    I'm with you, people dying is never okay regardless, but I imagine that is why "gas is the line." And also generally the world frowns on use of chemical weapons that kill people in the most agonizing way. It's a big deal in the U.N. and I personally think the U.N. needs to exist and be a bigger part of the world's workings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J K Riki View Post
    One is death because of doing nothing (it happens if nothing is done), the other is an attack on people.

    I'm with you, people dying is never okay regardless, but I imagine that is why "gas is the line." And also generally the world frowns on use of chemical weapons that kill people in the most agonizing way. It's a big deal in the U.N. and I personally think the U.N. needs to exist and be a bigger part of the world's workings.
    the difference there is they will be hated for one, and loved for the other.

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    Syrian citizens have been attacked with nerve gas by someone. Exactly how is Syrian citizens being bombed by somebody else going to improve their lot? We need statesmen, not warriors.

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    In an effort to answer my own question, I'm going to post a couple links. Here's the first: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/15/wo...ref=libya&_r=0

    Here's a tidbit on Libya http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/28/wo...html?ref=libya

    Berbers in Libya: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/14/wo...html?ref=libya

    general state of Libya: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/28/wo...ref=libya&_r=0

    Audio from NPR: http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPl...38&m=210412968

    More Audio fron NPR, from last May: http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPl...38&m=210412968

    Foreign Policy recently wrote a long article: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...goes_for_broke

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    Nation Currently More Sympathetic To Demise Of Planet Krypton Than Plight Of Syria



    WASHINGTON—According to a national poll conducted by the Pew Research Center Monday, the vast majority of Americans are currently more concerned about the demise of Planet Krypton, the native world of the comic book character Superman recently depicted in the film Man Of Steel, than the devastation currently taking place in the Middle Eastern nation of Syria. “What happened to that place, the tragic loss of life, the horrific images we’ve seen—it’s simply too sad to even think about,” respondent Kathy Ames said in reference to the fictional extraterrestrial world. “To think that entire families were just wiped out in an instant because of a nuclear chain reaction caused by the planet’s unstable core. I just really feel for the people of Krypton.” When asked how she feels about Syria, Ames, along with numerous Americans polled, said, “I don’t know, bad, I guess?”

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/nat...-of-pla,32888/




    'Help Has To Be On The Way Now,' Thinks Syrian Man Currently Being Gassed'


    HOMS, SYRIA—As Syrian military aircraft rained chlorine gas on his community Tuesday, local man Amir Najjar, 36, reportedly assured himself that military and humanitarian aid from foreign governments must certainly be racing toward the country at this very moment to protect him and other helpless civilians. “The United States and many other nations publicly stated that the use of chemical weapons was a line that President [Bashar] al-Assad could not cross and would draw a swift and overwhelming response, so I have 100 percent confidence they are on their way to save us right now,” the man reportedly thought to himself as the deadly and internationally banned toxin began to destroy his lung tissue and compromise his respiratory abilities. “Even if I do not survive, at least I can die knowing that someone is currently stepping in to prevent any more grotesque and inhumane loss of innocent life. After all, the international community fully recognizes that anything less than decisive action would be completely immoral and unconscionable.” The collapsing man then reportedly took solace as he witnessed an entire brigade of armed UN peacekeepers flood into his city with vital relief supplies in a hallucination caused by the systematic shutdown of his brain functions

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    Quote Originally Posted by alesoun View Post
    Syrian citizens have been attacked with nerve gas by someone. Exactly how is Syrian citizens being bombed by somebody else going to improve their lot? We need statesmen, not warriors.

    thats called appeasement and loads of pussies tried it with the nazis while they were ... gassing people!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    "That one side is a marionette dictatorship backed by one of the most oppressive powers of the region, and the other one a guerrilla force styling itself freedom-fighting rebels but backed by the other of the most oppressive powers of the region"

    Those are the political sides. I don't care about that. What I care about are the human beings on each side who just want peace and order restored. Assad comes from a dictatorship that's lasted for decades. It's time for a new kind of government there. In 2013, I hope the people there could come up with something better.
    Look how well it worked for Iraq! You come in, remove the dictator, get a marionette Islamist theocracy. And no end to weekly bombings in the streets.

    Okay, look how well it worked in Libya! The dictator gets removed, it descends into incessant tribal warfare.

    Maybe Egypt? They removed the dictator, got the Islamist theocracy... then a military coup *backed by the populace* because the Islamists got everyone angry. And yes, no end to fighting in the streets again, burning churches and pogroms of whoever is not Islamic.

    I am not saying Assad is good; but tipping him now would only produce another theocracy, because his regime's opponents' agenda is mostly radicall Sunni. Who are guaranteed to oppress everyone non-Sunni, given the track record. That would not be an improvement at all for the people you say you care about.

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    Is this gas a known known or is it a known unknown?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaCan View Post
    Is this gas a known known or is it a known unknown?
    Gas has been confirmed I think, but I don't think government has taken responsability.

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