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  1. #1
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    Lack of Help from the community to fund Dreamfuel and CA

    I will probably get hate for asking this with the way the forums have gone, but oh well here goes.

    I want to ask why are users wanting this project funded more than Dreamfuel. Now I understand they are two totally separate things, but still I want to know why.

    Jason is being accused of not giving much information about dreamfuel, yet there doesn't seem to be any information about PACT, other than that it is going to be a tool for improving standards for artists.

    Jason and CA are being accused of being vague and money grabbers, yet I fail to see how anyone exactly knows what going to etc.

    I thought I would just go on the CD forums and mention it. And this was the response I got

    " I think we as a community have without saying anything decided to boycott anything to do with ca.org".

    WTF!!!. Yet these same people are the ones using the FB page to post their art and browsing this site pretending they do not.

    There are no questions at PACT. Here all anyone if they can even be bothered is to ask questions on why hasn't jason mentioned this or that.

    Yes the PACT fundraising page "might" might answer a few more questions, but other than that not really. People seemed to have jumped on its band wagon because it is being spammed by artists on FB that used to use this site alot, but couldn't give 2 shites about this site anymore. I mean how much more do they know about PACT really?

    I am not against PACT or wanting it getting funded, if people want it to get funded then so be it. What I really want to know is why with barely more information than what Jason has provided on the dreamfuel page and the questions his answered here on this site nobody is willing to help Dreamfuel and this site get funded, but with PACT its no questions funding.

    I mean wouldn't the users of this site and the artists that made a name for themselves from this site want Dreamfuel and CA's future to also get funded?. It seems users are happy to spam the CA FB page, the TAD student FB page, and this forum whiich they all proclaim to hate, yet they are happy spamming their non stop PACT kickstarter on everything Jason either built or help build. Funny thing that.

    Just curiuos.

    If anyone wants to help fund Dreamfuel and ites future then I urge you to hep its funding http://dreamfuel.conceptart.org/proj...-independence/
    Last edited by Schnaps; July 17th, 2013 at 10:46 AM.


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  3. #2
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    Well, PACT is something that does not really exist in this form yet. As far as I know there's no place yet to exchange info about companies' payments, contracts, etc. (I know of one such forum where that sort of info was shared, but it was mainly geared toward licensing of faerie artwork and died somewhen around 2010. That's all.)
    Also, the PACT campaign was heavily and constantly promoted by various professional artists all over Facebook and Deviantart.

    Dreamfuel, on the other hand, may not have managed to set itself apart from other artists' communities of which there are hundreds. An online gallery is nothing new.
    I like the idea of the print service and crowdfunding tool Dreamfuel promises, but it's hard to extract that info from the presentation text. What tools are there in all, and how will they work?
    If I were Jason I would re-work the text, presenting each unique aspect and fact about Dreamfuel in more detail. Right now we can only guess what these might be from the screenshots.

    The PACT presentation IS a LOT more straightforward and matter-of-factly than the one for Dreamfuel.
    Last edited by Maidith; July 17th, 2013 at 09:55 AM.

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    Honestly, I think it's just bad timing of the CA guys to ask the community for money at this point. Dreamfuel was announced at a point where the forums weren't even working properly. I think the CA guys just need to get their shit together and let all the drama blow over before people will be willing to contribute to stuff they want to accomplish.
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    It's probably because of all the drama in recent years. I can totally understand why people hesitate to trust Jason/CA with their money
    Last edited by Tugelbend; July 17th, 2013 at 10:46 AM.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tugelbend View Post
    It's probably because of all the drama in recent years. I can totally understand why people hesitate to trust Jason/CA with their money
    This is a fuuny one. You say people have no trust in Jason and CA.

    1) Yet he has worked and done art for some of the biggest games companies in the world with no problem. Didint seems to be a problem there.
    2) He setup this site
    3) He helped setup Massive black
    4) He setup TAD, which if you ask the students is one of the best art schools they been to.
    5)His paying the 60k+ a year to keep this site running.
    7) His setup the aid programme to send items to africa for under privileged kids
    8) setup the london and SF workshops, didnt seems to be any problem there. And got some of the biggest names in the games and movie industry to do talks there. They didnt seem to have any problem with him.
    9_ setup the Greenlight summit with some of the biggest art people there are. They didnt seem to have a problem

    Everything that his setup and usually done is a success. Yet people dont want to help this site and its future because of so called trust issues with money?

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    "You can paint pictures your whole life but they'll never call you an artist. You can play music your whole life but they'll never call you a musician. But you suck one dick and they call you a cocksucker for the rest of your life."

    Bill Clinton is a good example. He did a lot of good deeds during his time in the office - as well as afterwards - but guess what people will remember him for?

    Also, no need to defend Jason towards me. I know he's done great things and I honestly don't care much about the drama surrounding CA and Jason because I wasn't involved

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    A lot of the questions raised, Jason answered here. He'll be answering the rest in a couple of days.

    You're right about bad timing, everything that could go wrong did, but Dreamfuel has been planned for a long time and will happen. Actually, I think it'll make a good companion along with PACT.

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    Blackspot is there anyway to put the dreamfuel banner on the site again like it was last time before the got rolled back?. Also before the forums got rolled back Jason made a ppost about sharing dreamfuel on FB, twitter and other social media places and posting the screenshots here, is there anyway to make that thread again?.

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    Markmaker-You've only been here since May. There's a reason for the bad rep. The lions share of the community left in 09 because some shady shit went down. Back in January it came to our attention that Jason/TAD failed to send out Royalties to his past associates. So you shouldn't judge anybody that doesn't want to touch DF with a 10 foot stick.

    Personally I am fully aware of the risks and they are considerable. I will be throwing my money into the hat anyways.

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    All of that stuff you said might be true, but consider a very important fact - people leave places for reasons. They may not be reasons that you are privy to and they may not be things you care about, but they don't do so blindly. I can tell you, as a person who has been posting on this site for a very long time, that a LARGE portion of the quality posters have stopped posting here recently. Why? "Because reasons".

    You come off a little bit like a cheerleader with this post and that is totally okay because I get it. CA.org was a HUGE part of my online art social activity for a very long time. But I have also stopped posting here for the most part and as you would expect...I have my reasons.

    In the interest of not continuing drama, I won't waste time with them.
    But they are reasons just the same. I'm posting this now because I think you simply need to realize that regardless of your 1-9, people have their own list of reasons of why NOT to trust anything to with this site. They don't post here anymore, they don't support it, they don't refer people here, and they don't want to spend money on it. If people want to support PACT (I did!), that really has no bearing here.

    I think it's quite silly for anyone in charge of CA.org to ask for money at this point in time. They need to rebuild and re-assess.

    Quote Originally Posted by markmaker View Post
    This is a fuuny one. You say people have no trust in Jason and CA.

    1) Yet he has worked and done art for some of the biggest games companies in the world with no problem. Didint seems to be a problem there.
    2) He setup this site
    3) He helped setup Massive black
    4) He setup TAD, which if you ask the students is one of the best art schools they been to.
    5)His paying the 60k+ a year to keep this site running.
    7) His setup the aid programme to send items to africa for under privileged kids
    8) setup the london and SF workshops, didnt seems to be any problem there. And got some of the biggest names in the games and movie industry to do talks there. They didnt seem to have any problem with him.
    9_ setup the Greenlight summit with some of the biggest art people there are. They didnt seem to have a problem

    Everything that his setup and usually done is a success. Yet people dont want to help this site and its future because of so called trust issues with money?

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Spot View Post
    A lot of the questions raised, Jason answered here. He'll be answering the rest in a couple of days.

    You're right about bad timing, everything that could go wrong did, but Dreamfuel has been planned for a long time and will happen. Actually, I think it'll make a good companion along with PACT.

    Can't believe I studied commercial art as my first major in college, and I'm still learning all about this digital stuff, and working for big companies, etc.. Seems damn overwhelming sometimes to a 20 something in a small town.

    You folks who worked for places like Disney, Marvel, etc.. When did you get your "big break" (assuming you did get it)..? Guessing you just submitted a portfolio?
    The usual staples for anatomy:
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  14. #13
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    Just checked out DF and some questions answered by Jason. Although it's not the type of
    thing I would need right now, it does seem like a good idea for anyone promoting their own
    material.

    To answer markmaker's question, artists want PACT to go ahead because it concerns the
    part of freelancing that has to do with client interaction. Meaning the legal jargon in contracts,
    knowing what rights you own, what you can license, what you should be getting depending
    the job, when, as well as getting companies to work better with artists by paying on time and
    paying better. In other words, it's geared towards artists who do commission work mostly.

    DF, from what I gather, is a different thing. It's about publishing and selling your own stuff. So
    basically, if you have a large following and are making money off selling prints or comics etc,
    then DF is for you (tho the name...I mean c'mon enough with the dream stuff), tho you are probably
    already doing something of the like, just not by using ONE site.

    I just don't see any reason for a supporter of PACT not wanting DF to succeed...in the worst
    case one can just be indifferent...
    "Don't judge a book by it's cover" Frank Frazetta 1928-2010
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    The thing is, the profession is at a crossroads and something needs to be done. DF sounds interesting but won't stop the slide of compensation to artists. Providing another outlet for people to sell cheap crap and undercut each other isn't the answer. Its not how economics work. So unless they are going to restrict the art and set standards for sale-able art it will become part of the problem not the solution. Wages for artists have been falling for 30 years. Too many people are reducing art to a minimum wage job not a profession. People need to take a stand. The only reason this is happening to art is greed. People don't want to pay for art services, not employers, not clients, not beginning artists for classes. Well guess what? That doesn't work. So PACT might be able to help with a small part of the problem, we will see. Art has allowed me to buy a house and live a nice middle class life, this was available to most artists in the 80's and early 90's but not any more. Most of you will never support yourselves as artists because of current trends. If that doesn't make you want to support PACT then nothing will. Individuals can only push back so much but a group of committed people change the world.

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    Also, it seems that Dreamfuel is, at least in part, the latest iteration of CA 4.0, which has been "almost done" for about 5 years now. That is has broadened in scope to become such a huge project will make it even harder to complete a fully functional version that can go live. I'm not personally against Dreamfuel, but I'm too skeptical to donate. I like that PACT is focused and has a clear goal that can be realized (in terms of the site they're trying to build). Whether PACT can really make an impact on the larger industry, well, we'll just have to wait and find out I guess.

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    *Pushes "Thank" button*

    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    The thing is, the profession is at a crossroads and something needs to be done. DF sounds interesting but won't stop the slide of compensation to artists. Providing another outlet for people to sell cheap crap and undercut each other isn't the answer. Its not how economics work. So unless they are going to restrict the art and set standards for sale-able art it will become part of the problem not the solution. Wages for artists have been falling for 30 years. Too many people are reducing art to a minimum wage job not a profession. People need to take a stand. The only reason this is happening to art is greed. People don't want to pay for art services, not employers, not clients, not beginning artists for classes. Well guess what? That doesn't work. So PACT might be able to help with a small part of the problem, we will see. Art has allowed me to buy a house and live a nice middle class life, this was available to most artists in the 80's and early 90's but not any more. Most of you will never support yourselves as artists because of current trends. If that doesn't make you want to support PACT then nothing will. Individuals can only push back so much but a group of committed people change the world.

  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoul Duke View Post
    Markmaker-You've only been here since May. There's a reason for the bad rep. The lions share of the community left in 09 because some shady shit went down.

    Personally I am fully aware of the risks and they are considerable. I will be throwing my money into the hat anyways.
    Raoul, your link doesnt go anywhere.

    And, me too.

    P.S. Slightly unrelated but just a thought triggered by dpaint's post. Maybe the problem with the art world today is digital. It's made producing art so easy anyone can do it. So in a knock on effect, clients think they don't have to pay top money for something that was easily produced. In effect, digital is devaluing art.

    Something to think about as artists?

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    Digital art [...] made producing art so easy anyone can do it
    Lack of Help from the community to fund Dreamfuel and CA

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    I do understand everything that went before, and yes many people were angry, some more bordering on abuse and slander if you ask me.

    I am happy that PACT got funded for the people that wanted it to get funded, and I know there are trust issues it seems, but I mean is it the worst thing to give this concept and idea a chance?

    Is it a bad thing to ask this site users, and many of the artists that got famous of this site and used it as a vehicle to launch their own careers, or many of the current artists that use this site as a vehicle to showcase their art and future artists to help with Ca's future and maybe see what Dreamfuel can become? Yes there are risks to it, and the Dreamfuel page dosnt explain alot, but even with everything thats gone on, why cannot alot of past users, who benefited alot from this site and current users who continue to benefit help with its future?
    Help support CA's future and your own art future, and help Fund

    DREAMFUEL

  21. #20
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    and many of the artists that got famous of this site
    If anything they became famous because of their skills and work ethics, not because of CA. CA just happened to be a popular platform (among others).

  22. #21
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    Ok yeah your right, what I meant was that alot of used this site as a vehicle for major exposure to gather a fanbase. Granted they could have done that anywhere, but CA was back then and even a year ago a very very popular site in terms of exposing artists to a wider audience.
    Help support CA's future and your own art future, and help Fund

    DREAMFUEL

  23. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    The thing is, the profession is at a crossroads and something needs to be done. DF sounds interesting but won't stop the slide of compensation to artists. Providing another outlet for people to sell cheap crap and undercut each other isn't the answer. Its not how economics work. So unless they are going to restrict the art and set standards for sale-able art it will become part of the problem not the solution.
    Very true. Personally I think CA can be good at self regulating quality. Speaking as somebody with a merch store I can say that the ecosystem needs to be in place. Most of my stuff doesn't even show up in the search results.

    Anybody got any productive suggestions on how to ensure the strong survive. Like a bump system or anything. Something troll proof.

    CANDRA H- That link went to a horrible encyclopedia dramatica article about what happened in '09. What they define as Armageddon and presume to be the end of CA.
    Last edited by Raoul Duke; July 18th, 2013 at 03:16 PM.

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    Jason deserves all the credit for creating CA and making a platform for pros to help amateurs.That has been a noble cause and one I have supported to a point. But I don't think CA makes people successful because they post their work here, especially not pros. The pros make it a great site because they give away their time to help others and again Jason and his team of volunteers make it work and keep it running but you are over stating the importance of CA as far as making celebrities; better artists yes, celebrities no. I am sure there are exceptions but for the most part this site helps to improve people not necessarily put money in their pocket directly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    for the most part this site helps to improve people not necessarily put money in their pocket directly.
    Wouldn't it be cool if it did put money your pocket for your hard work. Wouldn't it be awesome if browny points were rewarded financially.

    To comment on PACT. If those guys got together said "fuck Wizards of the Coast we are building our own deck". Don't you think Wizards would poop themselves and value their talent a little more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoul Duke View Post
    CANDRA H- That link went to a horrible encyclopedia dramatica article about what happened in '09. What they define as Armageddon and presume to be the end of CA.
    The one where they talk about all the drama queens who cant take critiques?

  27. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoul Duke View Post
    Wouldn't it be cool if it did put money your pocket for your hard work. Wouldn't it be awesome if browny points were rewarded financially.

    To comment on PACT. If those guys got together said "fuck Wizards of the Coast we are building our own deck". Don't you think Wizards would poop themselves and value their talent a little more.
    The only way this will really work if artists start to shun the artists that break rank and work for low or no pay. If they are not willing to get past the touchy feely stage and fight for what they want it will fail.

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    Then...
    we shall fight them on the beaches,
    we shall fight them on the landing grounds,
    we shall fight them in the fields and in the streets,
    we shall fight them in the hills;
    we shall never surrender,

    Gotta love a misquoted speech by Churchill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    The only way this will really work if artists start to shun the artists that break rank and work for low or no pay. If they are not willing to get past the touchy feely stage and fight for what they want it will fail.
    I only disagree with "the only way". Plenty of adjustments need to be made. It's no longer big fish in a small pond because the pond has turned into the sea with plenty of fish in it. If you just grand stand you still won't be in the position to turn them down at the end of the day and you'll have a worse position tomorrow.

    One thing that has me concerned is I'm not understanding what kind of standard contracts they want us to use. I prefer to charge a simple daily rate with a discount based on the advanced retainer. Rather than a flat rate per illo. Would I be shunned? Should I shun artists that spend a month on a one thousand dollar painting? Does this mean shunning work from indie clients and anybody that has worked for them?

    You are definitely more experienced in business than 90% of us around here. You have decades and mortgage payments on us. So I take your advice seriously. Don't take this as me pretending I know better.

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    Those are all good points. I think a professional standard needs to be set for pay like a minimum wage. I was talking more about things like the Craigslist, Odesk, Elance crowd offering $5 dollar oil paintings. That stuff won't go away but maybe we can get employers over a certain profit level to agree to pay fair compensation. You would have to adjust for country, usage, etc.
    I'm not actually part of Pact so maybe Randy or Aaron can comment if they are around. They definitely want a softer approach than I do, from talking to a couple of them at Illuxcon last year. I know I have my own ideas and want to help expand it beyond card art, which I haven't done in 20 years and even then I was slumming at 300 a card. I hear but no one has confirmed this to me that cards are still 300.

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    It all depends on the amount of cards you can book and keep up with. That's why I think flat rates per illo are the real problem. If you were doing 4-5 cards a week you would be in good shape. You'd just have to be firm and say you can have the dragon, but not the scales. I never worked in cards though. I don't think they like my work anyways.

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