Lack of Help from the community to fund Dreamfuel and CA - Page 2

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  1. #31
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    I hear but no one has confirmed this to me that cards are still 300.
    Really?
    From WOTC?

    I really hope that isn't true. I can't imagine all of those high-end artists working for such peanuts.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty View Post
    Really?
    From WOTC?

    I really hope that isn't true. I can't imagine all of those high-end artists working for such peanuts.
    unless they only take 4 or 5 hours to do then its ok money.

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    unless they only take 4 or 5 hours to do then its ok money.
    Doing a painting in that time frame isn't the problem, its all the back and forth with comps, color roughs, changes, research, reference, nobody expects you to bill for that time anymore.

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  5. #34
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    I've known concept artists that worked on card games. It was a steady 9-5 office job. I also knew a very underrated illustrator that primarily did cards/book covers. He would hire models, build maquettes and had a fancy lighting set up. To top it off he had late process revisions. I figured he must have been collecting at least a couple grand for all that trouble.

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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoul Duke View Post
    I've known concept artists that worked on card games. It was a steady 9-5 office job. I also knew a very underrated illustrator that primarily did cards/book covers. He would hire models, build maquettes and had a fancy lighting set up. To top it off he had late process revisions. I figured he must have been collecting at least a couple grand for all that trouble.
    That's why base rates are important. If there is a fair base rate set it gives people something to work toward. They know they can command that rate when they are good enough and fast enough with the potential for it to increase once they establish themselves and get a good reputation.

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  7. #36
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    By base rate do you mean royalties? If so I didn't know that was an option with trading cards.

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  8. #37
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    No i mean a minimum wage that is fair compensation for someone who works at a professional level, not someone who's willing to live in their moms basement and eat top ramen so they can say they work for WOC.

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  9. #38
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    Okay got ya. Honestly I had to google base rate and the answer I got was related to commissions.
    I found hourly rates to complicate everything. When hunting for reference or inspiration inexperienced clients get the wrong idea when they think you spend hours looking at pictures and doodling around.
    The daily rate in my experience keeps the pettiness at bay. What's important is the artist and client agree on realistic goals for the day. You know what you can deliver and it's even more fun to over deliver.

    Last edited by Raoul Duke; July 22nd, 2013 at 04:07 AM.
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  10. #39
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    This is all good talk, but sorry to disturb your convoabout trading cards. If anyone even bothers about CA and Dreamfuel this is the link. There are not many days left, and the funding is way behind on what it needs. So please try help it.
    http://dreamfuel.conceptart.org/proj...-independence/

    Help support CA's future and your own art future, and help Fund

    DREAMFUEL
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  11. #40
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    Mark-Yelling at us to donate harder is not going to yield results. I hope you are not going on other social networks with this donate or die attitude.
    I left a couple questions in the QA that need an answer first. I will definitely donate more within the last 48 hours.

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  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoul Duke View Post
    Okay got ya. Honestly I had to google base rate and the answer I got was related to commissions.
    I found hourly rates to complicate everything. When hunting for reference or inspiration inexperienced clients get the wrong idea when they think you spend hours looking at pictures and doodling around.
    The daily rate in my experience keeps the pettiness at bay. What's important is the artist and client agree on realistic goals for the day. You know what you can deliver and it's even more fun to over deliver.
    Totally agree with you.

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  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by markmaker View Post
    This is all good talk, but sorry to disturb your convoabout trading cards. If anyone even bothers about CA and Dreamfuel this is the link. There are not many days left, and the funding is way behind on what it needs. So please try help it.
    http://dreamfuel.conceptart.org/proj...-independence/
    Don't interrupt when the grownups are talking to each other.

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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by markmaker View Post
    This is all good talk, but sorry to disturb your convoabout trading cards. If anyone even bothers about CA and Dreamfuel this is the link. There are not many days left, and the funding is way behind on what it needs. So please try help it.
    http://dreamfuel.conceptart.org/proj...-independence/
    Have you looked at the boards activity lately?
    The lack of support for Dreamfuel is because there's no one around to care.

    Stifling discussion, even if it's in the wrong thread, is not the way to go about creating more board activity.
    You need to adjust your campaign to get people to come back to CA, not to get people to spend money.

    Because I tell you want....several years ago, Dreamfuel would have been funded easily with the userbase here.
    The root of the problem may not be something you can fix.

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  15. #44
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    Jason will be answering the questions. He hasn't been well, so give him some slack.

    I understand the boards are really slow for some people, which may explain the lack of posting, but the viewing figures are the highest they've been for months.

    Q&A on the Dreamfuel page

    Q - So what happens to our money if this fails to meet its goal by August 5?
    A - Fortunately we will be able to keep pushing forward, just slowly. We will see how far we get. Some big names are stepping up in support, as well as some possible sponsors too so it is our hope this will meet its funding goals, time wise. I have already put about 30k of my own funds into building some of the basics out and testing different features, so we will see the galleries and print stores done at the very least, by our production date. We are updating a release schedule and public budget so folks can better understand how this is all going to work too.


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  16. #45
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    Making a highly detailed and complex painting in 4-5 hours is a problem. We should be aiming to work
    less for more, especially since profits and production are up. And even if an artist CAN, it doesn't mean
    he/she SHOULD make art that fast, we are human beings not machines. The excuse of "competitiveness"
    is beneficial only to businesses, to take advantage of us. To us it's useless and promotes the dog-eat-dog
    mentality which is what's helped bring the world to the state it's in now. There's only so much we can sacrifice
    to the nowhere-fairy-tale of free markets, competitiveness and wanting to be the "best".

    This whole system, at least in this business as far as I am able to ascertain, is based around the pressure
    to get better than the best guy and on the SUPPOSITION that the pay at the high end is awesome. I've tried
    many times the past few years to see what artists are being paid (which is different than what companies
    pay. WE are supposed to have rates, not have rates dictated upon us by the companies) and I've found very
    little past some generic guideline of hourly rate, as well as some sums of money charged for advertising
    gigs for companies like Shell or whatever.

    The notion that companies like Wizards MUST be paying great just because they are a big company, was
    perpetuated because pros wouldn't share info on the rates being paid, however this has now been demolished.
    At times I've seen pros give generic sums with no examples of circumstances but there was also never a definite
    company attached. There's this paranoid secrecy with rates and companies, as if the IRS and every publisher
    or client is scanning the net with a microscope, as if we're the only ones on the spot. A symptom I attribute
    the modern day fearful USA, one I grew up far away from. However, I am hopeful that PACT will help remedy
    this to some small extent.

    As for DF, it's nice idea for you when you have stuff of your own to self publish, however the fact that it's basically
    Dream Concept Art Fuel is hurting it. It's kind weird wanting to take the middle man out and substituting your own
    service in his place. But even if that's not the case (as it easily can and cannot be), people who are in that field are
    already finding ways to do so on their own. It's not a bad idea, far from it, it's just not what's the most tough mold
    to break I think.

    "Don't judge a book by it's cover" Frank Frazetta 1928-2010
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  17. #46
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    I understand the boards are really slow for some people, which may explain the lack of posting, but the viewing figures are the highest they've been for months.
    I totally respect your position here and I've always liked you a lot.
    But viewings don't actually mean anything. If people aren't posting, there is nothing to read, and the viewings will diminish.
    I used to have a message board once. A small one, but one just the same. Drama erupted, as all communities inevitably go through. And when that drama happened, our stats showed a massive spike in guests and viewings, too. That lasted for months with almost zero postings because people kept checking back to see what the conclusion of it all would be. My board died out because I didn't bother to try and fix the issues. I just kept operating as I had in the past assuming people would eventually come back.

    You need to ask why people have stopped posting and why key members of the community that were once fixtures here no longer post (which most people already know) Try to rectify that and move forward as best you can. But kicking it all under the carpet as if these things have never happened isn't the way to go, in my opinion.

    I hope this board comes back because I thought it was a great resource to many artists. I always used to refer people here as a key point of advice because of all of the talent that was here offering their experience and critiques. But if/when that all goes away for good? There's nothing left.

    CA.org *IS* the artists who make up this community. Not the features, the slick new design, the boxes at the top, or whatever new features you are planning. If the community goes away, no amount of any of that will matter because there are plenty of amazing sites around the web with TONS of crazy features with hardly anyone actually using them. As long as all of you guys remember what is REALLY important (the people), I think CA.org can and will bounce back some day.

    Good luck!

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  18. #47
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    DUSTY-You didn't just hit the nail on the head you hit on the nose. The credibility issue is still very cloudy. The site flickers in and out. The Dreamfuel servers might do the same if they are tied to CA's bug bombed servers. Who knows what that means for credit card info. I never really wanted to post that suspicion. But it's been there the whole time. I'm pretty sure it's crossed all of your minds.

    Last edited by Raoul Duke; July 24th, 2013 at 09:56 AM.
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  19. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Line View Post
    The notion that companies like Wizards MUST be paying great just because they are a big company, was
    perpetuated because pros wouldn't share info on the rates being paid, however this has now been demolished.
    At times I've seen pros give generic sums with no examples of circumstances but there was also never a definite
    company attached. There's this paranoid secrecy with rates and companies, as if the IRS and every publisher
    or client is scanning the net with a microscope, as if we're the only ones on the spot. A symptom I attribute
    the modern day fearful USA, one I grew up far away from. However, I am hopeful that PACT will help remedy
    this to some small extent.
    I think its more of a case that no one wants to admit what their getting because then someone else will try to undercut them. Its like discussing salaries with co-workers people get upset when they find out they are making less than someone else.

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  20. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    I think its more of a case that no one wants to admit what their getting because then someone else will try to undercut them. Its like discussing salaries with co-workers people get upset when they find out they are making less than someone else.
    That, and if you're negotiating a different rate with different clients, you don't want one to find out that someone else is paying you less than they are.

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  21. #50
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    Dpaint and Sidharth, I understand the reasons you are mentioning, however, don't you think that
    if an artist who is good enough for Wizards, and was willing to do a card for $100, has already sent
    them a portfolio and a message stating his/her willingness to do so? That explanation can only go
    so far.

    "Don't judge a book by it's cover" Frank Frazetta 1928-2010
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  22. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoul Duke View Post
    The site flickers in and out. The Dreamfuel servers might do the same if they are tied to CA's bug bombed servers. Who knows what that means for credit card info.
    Is that really a threat if the money is transferred through Paypal? I don't think Dreamfuel/CA has access to your credit card information (but I'm obviously not an expert on the subject).

    Edit: Did they change the payment system? When it was first launched, I thought hitting 'Support Now' just sent you to Paypal.

    Last edited by dierat; July 25th, 2013 at 08:33 AM.
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  23. #52
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    Well, this thread looks a little more like the CA of old.
    Trouble is, it feels like a few of us old timer's sitting in a flyblown bar in ghost town.

    I think Elwell is lying out there somewhere, face up under a cactus...

    I very much agree with Dusty btw.

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  24. #53
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    Dusty, people are posting some pretty interesting stuff like this post from Raileyh http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...46#post3705946 We just need more of it.

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  25. #54
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    Line - for you. It's doing the rounds on FB atm

    Name:  1009647_10151733381264592_1941998307_o.jpg
Views: 567
Size:  143.0 KB

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  26. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by dierat View Post
    Is that really a threat if the money is transferred through Paypal? I don't think Dreamfuel/CA has access to your credit card information (but I'm obviously not an expert on the subject).

    Edit: Did they change the payment system? When it was first launched, I thought hitting 'Support Now' just sent you to Paypal.
    I know it goes through pay pal. I just don't know anything about what hackers can and can't do. I'm sure anything is possible and I'm paranoid about vulnerabilities in a site. If a site is really buggy, I'm not going to trust their paypal. I've been scared off by lot's of distasteful animated advertisements.

    PS: Paypal recently asked me to confirm a nonprofit located in Greece I knew nothing about. I reported it paypal acted like no harm no fowl. They assured me it wasn't a phishing scam, but they wouldn't tell me what kind of scam it was.

    Last edited by Raoul Duke; July 25th, 2013 at 08:22 PM.
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  27. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Spot View Post
    Line - for you. It's doing the rounds on FB atm

    Name:  1009647_10151733381264592_1941998307_o.jpg
Views: 567
Size:  143.0 KB
    Thanks Black Spot, I haven't seen this, I'll share it from my end. Tho I'm not aiming for comics, being the Devil's
    Advocate can produce results. I'm surprised by the pricing back then. Does anyone have any idea of how close
    these figures are to the actual figures being paid in comics now?

    "Don't judge a book by it's cover" Frank Frazetta 1928-2010
    RIP Frank.

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  28. #57
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    The problem with Dreamfuel is that it comes at a time when a lot of us are unsure of how we feel about this site. I personally put a lot of time and effort into the team challenge, which was the biggest push this site made in years to bring back the sense of unity in the community, only to have the site shut down for over a month for this upgrade... we practically had to beg to get the team event and then didn't get any site backing. We had the whole thing shutdown on us with negligible notice during the last week after we all put so much work into it... Then there was all of that drama about royalties that was it's own plate of spaghetti.

    Now the upgrade has happened kinda sorta and they want $75,000 for another update that sounds ok(?), but is really more of a 'lets wait and see' kinda thing. Maybe we'll all love it when it's done. I hope so. However until then I really don't have much to go on to sell me for this project.

    Ask me for money later when I'm not feeling like we we're all a bit let down.

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  29. #58
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    Markmaker I have no idea who you are, or why Dreamfuel is so important to a newcomer to the boards, but the reason why I haven't been around here for (what ... 10 months?)is because I have been so ill that I nearly died, and because I was so ill, I haven't been well enough to earn enough to contribute.

    Please show less demanding behaviour towards the community. It does come across as patronising, which isn't fair to us or you. Sorry.

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  30. #59
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    Jeez Alesoun. Sorry to hear about your illness. I hope you get better.

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  31. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by alesoun View Post
    Markmaker I have no idea who you are, or why Dreamfuel is so important to a newcomer to the boards, but the reason why I haven't been around here for (what ... 10 months?)is because I have been so ill that I nearly died, and because I was so ill, I haven't been well enough to earn enough to contribute.
    That's terrible. Hope you get better soon!

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