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Thread: Is this obsurd?

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    Is this obsurd?

    I'm a writer and I need some art done for the cover of my novel as well as maybe a few extra concepts. I wanted to post here first to see what the concept art community thinks before I actually make an official post looking for artists. I don't want to step on any toes and I know how hard all of you here work to get your art finished. The problem is, is that I don't have money to hire an artist.

    I'd like to make a proposal and ask if any artists would be willing to contribute to my novel for credit. I'd list the artist in the acknowledgements of by book.

    Anyways, I don't know how viable this is and was wondering what you all think about it.

    Thanks

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  3. #2
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    I suggest you don't do that.

    If you don't have the money, you shouldn't ask people to do it for free. Get yourself a budget and hire somebody.
    I have a even bigger problem with kids taking up jobs and does them for free cause it hurts the entire business.

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    Is this obsurd?
    Hopefully your novel is better written than your thread title.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candra H View Post
    Hopefully your novel is better written than your thread title.

    Burn....

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    Cute!

    “A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, said Jojen. The man who never reads lives only one.”--Geroge R.R. Martin, A Dance With Dragons
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    Pay the artist.

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    Free doesn't pay the rent, nor does it buy food or keep the utilities running.

    Amateur Artist. Professional Asshole.

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    "Obsurd" it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by lambenttyto View Post
    I know how hard all of you here work to get your art finished
    No you don't, or you would not be asking for freebies. By the way, if you were a writer you would know that it's publishers that find cover artists, not writers.

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    Yes, it is absurd and extremely disrespectful to ask an artist to work for free. You clearly have no idea how hard of work it is, or you wouldn't even think about asking somebody to do it for free.

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    The fact that you are not willing to scrape together a couple hundred bucks to pay a half decent illustrator means you can't be taken seriously. If you were dedicated enough to take it to the finish line you'd make personal sacrifices. Hiring an illustrator would be the least of your expenses if you knew what you were getting yourself into.

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    Please be respectful. Did you know that there are artists who made their whole careers off doing work that was unpaid? Gary Kelley did paintings for the local theatre where he could do whatever he wanted and they paid to print and publish them. That was how he got the type of work out that he wanted to get out into the world...as the work you get out into the world is the type of work you end up doing and getting paid for. If someone was paying to get the book printed and the content was great and the artist really needed published works in his or her portfolio it would be worth considering. When I put out the art of massive black, I actually cut a check to get that done, and took a very meager cut on the back end in exchange for getting it done. Why would I do that? Because it got MB all over CGSociety for years, which none of my competitors could do. Every 3d art director in the biz was on that site and if we wanted work we had to be seen...in a very quality way.

    I understand the gut reaction...but in biz, reaction with guts means losing opportunities and losing business, so use your head instead - just some advice that was learned the hard way here.

    There is also an option to do the book deal and share in the royalties as you know how important cover art is to the sales of the book. So there are other options to paying up front. Kick in five or ten percent of the royalties to the artist if they are skilled.

    Those who are insulting should perhaps think before typing. Business is business and the question was entirely legit. This site is not deviant art. Please be respectful. Being dicks doesn't pay the rent either. How this could have been handled biz wise was to say yeah that's cool and all but if you want the best results what about doing a rev share? I will do the book for x percent of the back end, and I might even have some finished art that you could choose from too. You see...open up the discussion, don't shut it down and crap on it. Make sense?

    Last edited by Jason Manley; June 9th, 2013 at 11:03 AM.
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  17. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Manley View Post
    Those who are insulting should perhaps think before typing. Business is business and the question was entirely legit. This site is not deviant art. Please be respectful. Being dicks doesn't pay the rent either. How this could have been handled biz wise was to say yeah that's cool and all but if you want the best results what about doing a rev share? I will do the book for x percent of the back end, and I might even have some finished art that you could choose from too. You see...open up the discussion, don't shut it down and crap on it. Make sense?
    Absolutely. And no disrespect intended on my part.

    I'm happy to do work for free if it's a cool enough project, and have done. I'm not a professional yet so I'm probably less picky than some. But if a writer cant spell, it makes me wary about the quality of their book. Hence my comment above.

    If it's full of basic spelling errors, there's a strong possibility no one will want to buy it, which means the artist wont get any money or credibility by being associated with a poor product. Not trying to be an arsehole by saying that, just pointing out the truth as I see it.

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    Aptly put.

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    Jason-I see your point. Under some circumstances it makes sense. In my experience doing free work for an author or a band does not translate to exposure even if they're actually good. It takes promotional savvy and a great business sense. Hittin up the lounge to bum illos disproves either. He's not the first, won't be the last and it's hard to resist the urge to tease these guys. Particularly when a novelist misspells the title of said thread.

    I wouldn't have a problem croudsourcing art for a garage effort project if it sounded like more fun than work. Like a simple mod or maybe an indie game pitch for kickstarter if the designer has the experience and an inspiring vision that you can get behind.

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    id expect both parties to pull their weight. if the orther has no money, maybe he can pay his way through his other skills; maybe he can do your accounts, build your website, connect you with paid work, mow your lawn... ive been paid in high quality knives recently by a writer/knife maker i worked with... sitting back and expecting artists to give up their time for the experience isnt gonna happen unless the writer is the next iain banks..

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; June 13th, 2013 at 05:19 PM.
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    Jason, you might want to read this: http://www.nospec.com/

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    Nothing wrong with the barter system. I designed and printed some business cards for mechanic buddy and he really got me out of a jam by fixing up my hoopty. It would have cost me a thousand bucks if I would have taken it to a shady autoshop. Did it boost my career? FUCK NO!

    I did an album cover for a drinking buddies band in exchange they paid for a night out on the town. They never even printed the album cover or flier. Was it worth it? Yes. Did it amount to exposure? Nope.

    I could go on. But you see the pattern.

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  23. #19
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    who rules bartertown?

    sb most art copied to page 1
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  24. #20
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    Tina Turner rules Bartertown.

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    Yeah this whole work for back end or exposure has to stop. Its bullshit, especially when the person or company asking could write a check for the service and never worry about anything changing in their bottom line. This is not the world of Downton Abbey where someone gives me a cot and three squares if I work for them while they go golfing at St Andrews or touring Europe for the summer. I don't care how many third world backwater art hacks take those deals, its unfair and its disrespectful. If Gary Kelley did it then he is just as big of a scumbag as anyone else doing it, so F him for being a coward.

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    Scumbag is a pretty unfair description. Sucker would be a fair description if anything. But keep the context in mind. It was just local theater. It's not the same as a billion dollar corporation or a misguided kid that thinks he's giving you a huge break by letting you in on the exposure once he writes his future best seller.

    BTW: David Choe owns bartertown.

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    for the people picking on spelling remember that not everyone speaks english as their first or even second language, and english is one of the languages with least coherence between spelling and the way it sounds, you basically have to guess what a word sounds like (is the oo in moon pronounced the same as book? based on the spelling how should a foreigner know how to pronounce look as "luck" and not "luke", etc)

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    Weil, you'll have missed the point I was making about the op's lack of spelling ability.

    He said he'd written a book and wanted someone to do art for it for the possibility of recognition later when the book sells.

    If he cant spell, his book wont be very readable, will it? That means it wont sell and the artist wont get any recompense for ther efforts. Basically, wasting their time.

    That was my point.

    I wish people would pay more attention, I really do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Manley View Post
    Aptly put.
    I'd hit you up with a "thanks" but you guys disappeared them, lol. Will a thanks in here do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raoul Duke View Post
    BTW: David Choe owns bartertown.
    Haha. Not a chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Manley View Post
    Please be respectful. Did you know that there are artists who made their whole careers off doing work that was unpaid? Gary Kelley did paintings for the local theatre where he could do whatever he wanted and they paid to print and publish them. That was how he got the type of work out that he wanted to get out into the world...as the work you get out into the world is the type of work you end up doing and getting paid for. If someone was paying to get the book printed and the content was great and the artist really needed published works in his or her portfolio it would be worth considering. When I put out the art of massive black, I actually cut a check to get that done, and took a very meager cut on the back end in exchange for getting it done. Why would I do that? Because it got MB all over CGSociety for years, which none of my competitors could do. Every 3d art director in the biz was on that site and if we wanted work we had to be seen...in a very quality way.

    I understand the gut reaction...but in biz, reaction with guts means losing opportunities and losing business, so use your head instead - just some advice that was learned the hard way here.

    There is also an option to do the book deal and share in the royalties as you know how important cover art is to the sales of the book. So there are other options to paying up front. Kick in five or ten percent of the royalties to the artist if they are skilled.

    Those who are insulting should perhaps think before typing. Business is business and the question was entirely legit. This site is not deviant art. Please be respectful. Being dicks doesn't pay the rent either. How this could have been handled biz wise was to say yeah that's cool and all but if you want the best results what about doing a rev share? I will do the book for x percent of the back end, and I might even have some finished art that you could choose from too. You see...open up the discussion, don't shut it down and crap on it. Make sense?
    Honestly, this comment is kind of embarrassing coming from you.
    Every artist should be able to decide what they want to do with their free time, that much I agree with. If you think it fits or makes sense with your time and you want to treat something as a "collaboration" or something, go for it! Hell, I did a design contest once - it was fun enough at the time - but I deeply regret doing it because it reinforces that type of expectation that pseudo clients have to artists.

    People barely respect art as it is and here you are defending things that most people on this forum GREATLY disagree with in every sense.

    I'm not even truly living as a freelance artist (I work in game development during the day, do freelance at night) and even I deal with this kind of shit all of the time.
    "Oh man, we'll give you like 2% of our band shirt sales....come work for us. It'll be great, we sell a lot of shirts!!"
    Yeah, then I never see that money again once they have the art in hand. No amount of contracts or legalese will protect you when a band gets what they want. They will disappear before you know it. And that, sir, I did learn "the hard way".

    You need to get CASH MONEY down first (25%/50%/75% or even 100%...depending on client), then do the art. If they can't pay, they don't get my services. At least as far as first-time clients go. I have been known to be lenient with trustworthy clients, but that's only if trust has been built in the first place.

    You are encouraging really crappy behavior by clients and trying to make all of these artists that say this type of stuff is bullshit ISN'T. And you know it is.
    Again, it's fine if you want to take the risks. Risks have certainly been known to produce wonderful results. But don't try to say that people are being dicks to this guy when they are just trying to STERNLY express that this type of behavior isn't really smiled upon.

    If I am being 100% candid, it sounds like you are just trying to be nice to every person (and in turn asking us to be nice) because you've taken a userbase hit with all the recent stuff.
    That's not an excuse to encourage bad business.

    Last edited by Dusty; June 13th, 2013 at 04:30 PM.
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  30. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lambenttyto View Post
    I'm a writer and I need some art done for the cover of my novel as well as maybe a few extra concepts. I wanted to post here first to see what the concept art community thinks before I actually make an official post looking for artists. I don't want to step on any toes and I know how hard all of you here work to get your art finished. The problem is, is that I don't have money to hire an artist.

    I'd like to make a proposal and ask if any artists would be willing to contribute to my novel for credit. I'd list the artist in the acknowledgements of by book.

    Anyways, I don't know how viable this is and was wondering what you all think about it.

    Thanks
    I don't really see a problem with a request like this? I mean what's up with all the negativity? I'd do this in a heartbeat. You know, as long as you'd be cool writing a novel around some illustrations and characters I have? I'll credit you as the writer and everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candra H View Post
    Weil, you'll have missed the point I was making about the op's lack of spelling ability.

    He said he'd written a book and wanted someone to do art for it for the possibility of recognition later when the book sells.

    If he cant spell, his book wont be very readable, will it? That means it wont sell and the artist wont get any recompense for ther efforts. Basically, wasting their time.

    That was my point.

    I wish people would pay more attention, I really do.
    heya,
    my comment wasn't specifically directed at you
    but what i meant was, if he's a foreigner he's not necessarily writing a book in english.

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  32. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by lambenttyto View Post
    I'm a writer and I need some art done for the cover of my novel as well as maybe a few extra concepts. I wanted to post here first to see what the concept art community thinks before I actually make an official post looking for artists. I don't want to step on any toes and I know how hard all of you here work to get your art finished. The problem is, is that I don't have money to hire an artist.

    I'd like to make a proposal and ask if any artists would be willing to contribute to my novel for credit. I'd list the artist in the acknowledgements of by book.

    Anyways, I don't know how viable this is and was wondering what you all think about it.

    Thanks
    Well it just depends really on the person and your work. Personally I dont see anything completly wrong with it, if the work itself is exciting enough for the artist to want to give away their time for free then maybe such compromisies is acceptable. The artist just need to acknowledge the fact that this may not lead anywhere and they're doing it because it the project itself is exciting for them.

    Must keep drawing!!!

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