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  1. #481
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    this is just awsome, usefuller than loomis I think, the only thing that I would like to see are humans shown under and above the horizon.
    artwork
    nothing special....sadly....but I hope someday^^

    when you want to mentor someone, you may want to come here
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...&postcount=406


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  3. #482
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    Yeah those hand and feet studies are very nice, something I need to do desperately...I like the last page that has this random horse head in it

    Keep it up, I know you say many people are not view this, but even if you help one isn't it worth it ? I just stumbled upon this thread today, but i'll check it again in the future....just so much information in this forum that if I were to read it all I would not have time to draw

    I'm wondering if you have seen any of burne hogarth's work ? He has a little different way of describing the interconnection of the knee and elbow, and if you havn't seen it, may help to ring a bell in the back of your brain. I just know I like to see as many different interpretations of anatomy and bone structure and then try to make sense of it all in my own way...

    Anyways great thread, and great art...

  4. #483
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    Fantastic work! I have studied alot of your profile-ish works, those that just start with 4 lines for ass,neck etc. It really helps me, so thx alot!
    Anatomy over-all is hard, but i would like to see some mouth studies from you (plz ), cus the mouths i draw (lips, teeth and so on) kinda sucks.

  5. #484
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    I love your thread, jsut browsing through it is like reading an art anatomy book, i still have to go back through and read it from the begining onward but i must say thank, you thank you, thank you and please keep on posting for the sake of all us little folk
    I used to have a deep and meaningfull quote here but that got a lil tiresome

    please crtic my sketchbook

  6. #485
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    Mentler, I frigging love the no-refs with the masks!

    Also, thank you for the pages on wrist articulation. I was sitting there playing around with my wrist after studying the page when I first started to really 'get' the rotation of the radius/ulna -- what a beautiful twist!!

    As always, your posts are pure fuel for me.

    -Craig

  7. #486
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    Love this thread. Im definetly subscribing to this thread. Love the figures love the studies.
    Anthony Camilo
    "Choose a job you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life" Confucius

    Website: http://photobucket.com/albums/y44/camilografix/
    Sketch Book

  8. #487
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    darn, you can learn so much from this thread just by looking to the drawings you have made. I thank you for posting the things you have drawn

  9. #488
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    Thumbnail Torsos

    Haldor Thanxs <> keep checking in <> I will try to update more often
    Been working on a DVD and have not had much time!

    camilografix Just a few non reference doodles <> hope you like em"

    Craig Houghton I need to take the time to draw a few birds from life so I will understand them better
    The articulation of the wrist is hard to see <> I think for the most part artist put in the additional plane because they know that it is there.

    elsleepycrab Keep coming back and I will keep posting <> always good to know someone is watching

    onep Thumb nail torsos and a couple of other no ref morsels <> I will try post something and the core 4 landmarks

    Shatterdome Knew Burne have his books will check out the knees and elbows

    Fayt Will do some extreme foreshortened figures for you

    Chris Noeth Thanks Chris

    Aether The more I know the more I know I need to learn

    maxetormer Hope you are doing well <> working on my DVD's <> takes a lot of time

    clutchyourideas Thanks for dropping by and fueling me up


    Just a few random torsos and morsels

       The  Book  of  Bones   ]

  10. #489
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    Like the new pen colors Michael... The bird in the far left hand corner has some crazy fangs. Keep up the good work...

  11. #490
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    Core Four Landmarks

    Seth1 thanks for your continued support

    Core 4 is a copyrighted concept that I am working on that is a very important key to understanding the upper torso which in return is critical to figuring out the human form in any pose.

    The Core 4 Landmarks are:

    1. The super sternal notch (pit of the neck)

    2. The bottom of the sternum (not including the xiphoid process)

    3. The bottom of the tenth ribs

    4. The pelvic triangle (the triangle created by connecting the front pelvic points to the pubic bone

    These are the core landmarks of the human form and relate directly to the core or center line of any pose (we need to learn to visualize them in every pose)

    In the front they always relate to the center line of the body which runs from the pit of the neck through the bottom of the sternum continuing to the navel and on down to the pubic bone or synthesis pubis.

    In the back this line starts at the first thoratic vertebrae (the first vertebrae after the 7 cervical vertebrae) the 7 cervical is the last vertibrae of the neck and the 1st thoratic is the 1st vertebrae of the rib cage. The center line in the back follows the spine down to the sacrum. This line is always visible on a back view and much easier to follow than the center line on the front

    THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THESE CORE 4 LANDMARKS IS APPROXIMATELY THE SAME WHICH MAKES THEM VERY USEFUL TO THE ARTIST.

    IN OTHER WORDS IF MEASURED ON THE CENTER LINE THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE PIT OF THE NECK AND THE BOTTOM OF THE STERNUM AND THE DISTANCE FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE STERNUM TO THE AXIS OF THE BOTTOM OF THE TENTH RIB AND THE THAT POINT TO THE CENTER OF THE AXIS BETWEEN THE PELVIC POINTS ARE ALL ABOUT EQUAL.

    The other concept I am working on which I think will become a very useful tool for the artist it what I am calling the TORSO TRAPEZIUM this is the shape created by connecting the bottom of the tenth ribs to the pelvic points is both the front and back of the figure. Finding this shape will do several things for the artists:

    1. Will help with proportions <> very common problem are torsos that are to long or to short.

    2. Will help emphasize the contra postal angle between the rib cage and the pelvis.
    This should be more accurate than using the shoulders because of the extreme movement of the clavicles which changes the angles of the shoulders a great deal.

    3. The shape of the TORSO TRAPEZIUM will also provide the artist with great deal of information about the twists and turns of the torso and the positions of the rib cage in space and in relationship to each other.

    I know this page of notes is very hard to understand that is why I have tried to explain some of what is going on here.

    I am sure this will be much
    more clear in the DVD and the book to follow

       The  Book  of  Bones

  12. #491
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    damn man, sweet stuff!!!
    I can't wait until your dvd and book comes out, I will so get it.

  13. #492
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    Skeletal Landmarks

    Thanks <> Skurai <> DVD is moving into the edit suite <> we think it contains a great deal of new material and presents traditional methods in new ways as well <> we feel that we are going to raise the bar with this release.

    Skeletal Landmarks notes continued <> I realize this material is pretty dry without the demonstrations that go with it but these are some notes and conclusions that are research team has developed.

    The Sofa Landmark system is based on 26 skeletal landmarks

    13 core landmarks that relate to the spine/torso and have little independent movement
    7 front and 5 rear

    13 joint landmarks which relate to the extremities

    These notes refer to the core landmarks

    As always this material is copyrighted (c) mentler 2005


       The  Book  of  Bones

       The  Book  of  Bones

    notes on the 13 skeletal joint landmarks to follow

    This is of course the scientific stuff and not every bodies cup of tea <> but is does help one to understand essential aspects of the human form and that understanding will lead to better drawing it you let it.

  14. #493
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    Interesting way to put it! It will be very cool to see the way you layed out the dvd! May i ask if the book comming out this year, or next? Oh, and when you are writing, is this how you write on a daily bassist? I heard when drawing the torso area some guys make it 1 head larger as it gives the human body more of a look!?

    Seth

  15. #494
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    Really really beautiful studies! very nice! hmmm, theres a lot Da Vinci and Michelangelo on your way of drawing. This is very important thread. thank you.
    anf if you have the time , check my thread on head anatomy studies
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54612

    YEAH!
    SketchbooK



    The Trick Is To Keep Breathing

  16. #495
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    Sweet.
    You know when I make notes, I write backwards like Leonardo did, I am used to it now and I enjoy.
    One of the reasons is just because it's fun and the other is so people can't steel my ideas
    I accidently wrote backwards when making notes in class a couple of times, and I didn't fall behind

  17. #496
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    The DVD sounds interesting... can't wait to get it!

  18. #497
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    Hey Mentler. I've been hanging around here about a month, spent a lot of time staring at this thread. Can't say I've learned much directly (lot of lines--looks awesome, can be a little hard to read, maybe just more advanced than I'm ready for) but it's been awfully inspiring and motivating. Thanks for sharing this stuff with us.

  19. #498
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    Proportional Landmarks Continued

    max1975 Looking is learning of looking and doing is learning more and doing without looking is learning the most

    renaissancekid Still working on the first release it will be the best out there I guarantee it that is why it is not out there yet it has to be right!!!

    Skurai Making the notes is part the learning process for me so I make a lot of notes and hope I learn a little

    PERKELE Still refining my notes for parts of dvd I am reshooting wish Leo and Mike had DVD's I would be first in line to buy them

    seth1 Will have individual written material for each DVD that will be in book or manual form later

    CRANIAL INDEX

    Skeletal Landmarks Group Two

    Extended (movable) Landmarks

    In the Mentler Method there are 13 Core (fixed) Landmarks and 13 Extended (movable) Landmarks that all relate to the bony structure of the human form

    It is essential that the artist know where these landmarks are located and there characteristics and functions.

    There are 13 extended landmarks 12 of which relate to the joints of the extremities and the 13th being the clavicular attachment of the shoulder girdle which will be handled separately.

    These landmarks are far more dependable than the flesh based landmarks in the head measurement system.


       The  Book  of  Bones

  20. #499
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    Daily Dozen

    This is something I am really starting for my sketchbook in the SoFA forums but I will try to post em' here as well <> today in my wedding anniversary Oct. 25th <> of the next year I am going to try to do a dozen or more thumbnail torsos everyday. That will be over 4000 tiny torsos <> we will see if it pays any dividends

    Here's todays daily dozen or so:

       The  Book  of  Bones

  21. #500
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    Good luck mate, and Happy wedding anniversary! I look forwards to these as you are a constant source of inspiration with your way of looking at art, and beautiful flowing lines! On top of that, your handwriting is remarkable!
    Cheers Tim
    [url=http://galleryonefone.blogspot.com[/url] This would be my gallery in Sweden

    This would be my Pleine Air blog

  22. #501
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    Daily Dozen

    Thanks Tim

    Here is today's offering <> a little tight but getting the mo going

       The  Book  of  Bones

       The  Book  of  Bones

       The  Book  of  Bones

       The  Book  of  Bones
    Last edited by mentler; October 27th, 2005 at 11:10 AM.

  23. #502
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    Daily Dose

    The bottom line here is that you can't do an effective drawing unless you have a solid understanding of what you are going to draw <> most of the Old Master drawings were studies and studies of studies in preparation for a painting <> they were in that sense thumbnails of the final product which was usually much larger.

    I highly recommend doing structural thumbnail of a pose on any drawing from life that is longer than 5 minutes <> as many as it takes until you have a mass conception of what the major form units of the pose are doing <> many if not all master draughtsmen do this and many makes several starts at a drawing before they feel comfortable with the pose and composition. Most OM drawings took very little time to complete may less than 30 minutes certainly not much more than and hour <> however the OM's often did several drawings of the same subject which is the point exactly.

    Here is todays double dose


       The  Book  of  Bones
       The  Book  of  Bones

  24. #503
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    Are today's life studies then, or more constructed figures? both?

  25. #504
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    Just wanted to say you are a big source of inspiration
    master Mentler your ability and knowledge is outstanding !!!
    thanks for everything !! i wish you only the very best
    on your projects and i hope those dvds bring more fame and money !!!
    you deserve that and more , again thanks for everything
    ive learned so much and grew more as artist because
    of your kindness of sharing and showing your work.

    also you have been improving , your studies are more
    indepth is fun to follow your notes in them how you
    divide and measure on each example brings a smile on my face
    you are a man of reason but you also have a great passion
    for approaching art and is very well polished cause
    i can see your spirit reflected on your artwork.

    Keep up Mentler !!!!
    The very best !!
    and Happy wedding anniversary also !
    ROBOGABO SKETCHES in members section



    Information____is not Knowledge
    Knowledge_____is not Wisdom
    Wisdom________is not Truth
    Truth__________is not Beauty
    Beauty________is not Love
    Love__________is not Music
    Music_________is------------------->THE BEST!

  26. #505
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    bone doctor? nay

    BONE MASTER!!

    Mentler, as much as your work has always been music for my eyes and it is getting much better in my opinion, my brain can barely cope with the complexity of the drawings and highly individual stylisized way of writing. I do visit often and love what I look at and I have done a couple of the construction examples. I just find it difficult because it seems hard to understand for me. Basically I am too dumb to understand your notes (if it aint ABC my brain switches the understanding button to off.

    I love that you are here and will continue to look at your threads and SOFA and try and glean what I can. PS How can us Aussies get hold of the DVDS?

  27. #506
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    Daily Dose

    Tackling poses that I normally don't draw <> started a couple from ref then worked from memory <> also doing a lot for life at the studio will get those shoot and posed soon

       The  Book  of  Bones
       The  Book  of  Bones
       The  Book  of  Bones

    draw reshooting parts of DVD to make them the best they can be once I get this first set where I want them to be in terms of production value we will move forward from there at a faster pace!

    gaboartpage I hope I am getting better <> that's what it is all about <> thank you for your kindness and support

    max1975 Sort of both <> when I do work from ref it is just for a few moments to get the action of a pose then I let the figure develop on its own <> the short answer is that I work mostly from memory and imagination
    Last edited by mentler; November 2nd, 2005 at 12:30 AM.

  28. #507
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    Daily Dose

    Daily dose of thumbnails and short poses <> mixing them up <> life, ref, and imagination

       The  Book  of  Bones
       The  Book  of  Bones
       The  Book  of  Bones

  29. #508
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    Daily Dose

       The  Book  of  Bones

    Moving forward and discovering that working from life has the disadvantage of limited movement <> this is something that I have always known but now I am accepting the challenge of creating the life or emotion in poses that do not seem to have it.

  30. #509
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    I liked the page of knees a couple of pages back. It was very clean and clear and revealing. Posts #505 & #506 have some really nice drawings.

  31. #510
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    Chasing The Pose

    Posted this on SoFA but thought it worth repeating here ...

    This deals with what I call chasing the pose .... with erasing and starting over every time the models moves a little from their original position .... and ending up after several hours with a drawing that should have been done in about 30 or 40 minutes.

    Models move and this is not going to change <> to me this is not a problem but to many who rely on the model as there only source of reference it is a hugh problem that frustrates them to no end.

    Here are my thoughts on how to make it a little less painful.

    You have to seize the moment so to speak <> models move unless you are working with cadavers <> try to work the whole pose as much as possible, particularly in the beginning stages <> establish the construction and position of things <> in the Atelier sense this would be call the lay-in <> however this is where I differ considerably <> block in the aspect (rotation) of the head and decide where you want the features to be (I often have the model hold a pose a minute or two longer until I get the area I am concerned with established <> then I live with this position when the model comes back from her bread.

    I know I say this a great deal, but since it is a very key issue it bares repeating, in t long pose do not start right into you main efforts, do a few thumbnails, move around the model and view the pose from all angles, do thumbnails or small compositional sketches from different angles.

    In a 10 minute pose do this for a couple of minutes a 20 minute pose for 4 or 5 minutes and so on

    When the pose is going to be for and hour I recommend 15 or 20 minutes of understanding to pose exercises.

    If the pose is going to last for several hours I try not to nail down any aspects of the pose during the first 20 or 30 minute set.

    There are 2 main reasons for doing this

    1) The better you understand the pose the better you will draw it

    2) It gives the model a chance to settle into a pose poses change a great deal during the first several minutes and a great deal more between the first setting and the second.
    Models depending on their level of experience all start off a little ambitious then they sink into the pose the second setting they are far less ambitious and pretty get into a different pose it will change a little each set and each day if it is a multi day event.

    Never start on the head or features early in a pose because the head is balance on the top of the body and as the body moves so does the head I other words the head moves the most.

    Once the model gets relaxed into a pose nail the aspect (rotation) and weight of the torso. Then the legs and feet <> the weight baring leg first in a standing pose <> then the arms and hands <> you are mainly interested in the placement of the feet and the placement and gesture of the hands at this point <> then it is time to deal with the head and features.

    Once you have determined the aspects of the pose they become the pose the pose in front of you will change the pose on the page is what you should be concerned with now.

    Draw what you see, but know what you see, then draw what you know you see.

    Do not chase the pose i. e. Once you have established the head position and the placement of the features stay with it <> once you have laid in the hands stay with that position <> use the model as a reference not a reality <> the reality of course is that the model in going to move.

    Movement is good by the way <> it is the essence of life and in my book movement equates with emotion <> I feel it is the artist job to find the movement not eliminate it.

    On Portrait studies the same considerations apply do a few sketches to determine the tilt and rotation of the head, how you want to position it on the page, note the unique structural factors i.e. broad forehead, high cheekbones, weak chin, heavy brow, deep set eye sockets, the general shape of the head and hair.

    These are the main features and not the eyes, mouth, nose and ears in that order.

    We recognize someone we know from a distance long before we see their eyes.

    So deal with the structural features before you worry about the sensory features.

    Again do not chase the pose <> once you have established the shape and aspect of the head and have your construction lines in place draw the features to fit that position and construction.

    I often change parts of the pose or the whole pose during this process so it really helps to learn to draw from memory.


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