Hatsune Miku help
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    Hatsune Miku help

    This is a birthday gift for a friend. I guess I'll be updating it as I go along.

    Right now, the most important thing I want to know is if the position/anatomy is correct, and if the clothes are fitting the form alright. Or if there is an alternative position that will suit the figure better. Redlines would be wonderful.

    Name:  Miku Trial 1.png
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    Pelvis is tilted the wrong way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toriknew View Post
    Or if there is an alternative position that will suit the figure better.
    That depends. Can we see the gestures you did before you decided on this one? What about your value thumbnails?

    I'm not familiar with the character, but is an aerial punch with a stern expression an accurate depiction of her personality?

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    I take it you're going for more realistic proportions for her face and body, as opposed to her native anime style? EDIT: it seems obvious that you are, I'm just making sure, didn't want to assume. Anyway, random thought: her arms might be a little too stocky. I'd think they'd be a little more slender.

    Last edited by diamandis; February 6th, 2013 at 01:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atreides View Post
    Pelvis is tilted the wrong way.
    I'm sorry but I disagree. In martial arts moves come from the hara which means that more or less when you throw your fist, you throw your hip before and toward your aim. Same thing occur with kicks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StefRob View Post
    I'm sorry but I disagree. In martial arts moves come from the hara which means that more or less when you throw your fist, you throw your hip before and toward your aim. Same thing occur with kicks.
    Martial arts aside, this is a drawing and if something looks wrong it needs to be corrected even if it is technically correct. Besides, I just think that it looks like she is holding a wired mic in her hand, doing a little punching dance move.

    The hip area does indeed need some work, If you like to keep the position of the pelvis you would have to change the position of the legs instead. Perhaps you could find some reference images?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frida Bergholtz View Post
    Martial arts aside, this is a drawing and if something looks wrong it needs to be corrected even if it is technically correct. Besides, I just think that it looks like she is holding a wired mic in her hand, doing a little punching dance move.

    The hip area does indeed need some work, If you like to keep the position of the pelvis you would have to change the position of the legs instead. Perhaps you could find some reference images?
    Yes, she seems to hold a microphone but it doesn't change anatomy and physiology. Her right portion of the torso is turned forward her so her hips has to follow. Her position doesn't look wrong to me. And if you try to take the same pose after a quick rotation of your torso you'll discover your spine probably wouldn't like it.

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    AA guys thanks for all the great advice! I really appreciate it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frida Bergholtz View Post
    The hip area does indeed need some work, If you like to keep the position of the pelvis you would have to change the position of the legs instead. Perhaps you could find some reference images?
    I couldn't really find any true ref images but I flipped through a figure drawing book and found something like this:
    Name:  Supplement 1.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexokinase View Post
    That depends. Can we see the gestures you did before you decided on this one? What about your value thumbnails?
    Oh, I'm kind of new to this so I didn't do a thumbnail or value sketches...I think I should have aaah oops. I'll probably do a value sketch on the character once she's sketched out and maybe a color thing.

    So this is it updated? I tried some new legs and hips and thinned the arm a bit at diamandis's suggestion. I kind of feel like her hips need to twist more. Also I have trouble defining the joint point and how the knee turns.

    Name:  Trial 2.png
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    I also feel the emotion on the face is not really connecting with the pose - like they are supposed to be two separate things.
    I also don't know if this was intentional but she is a very feminine character - the features you have drawn in seems to lessen that
    effect. I would shrink the mouth and the nose if it were me.

    Good luck!

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    Quote Originally Posted by EZpaint View Post
    I also feel the emotion on the face is not really connecting with the pose - like they are supposed to be two separate things.
    I also don't know if this was intentional but she is a very feminine character - the features you have drawn in seems to lessen that
    effect. I would shrink the mouth and the nose if it were me.

    Good luck!
    Ah, I see what you mean. I guess since Miku is a music software her apperance/image both outside and emotionally changes depending on the situation? Idk personally her character design goes looser for me.

    But I see how she seems a bit masculanized. I'll see what I can do with the face? Which option do you guys thing is better?

    Name:  Face 1.png
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Size:  67.4 KBName:  Face 2.png
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Size:  68.1 KBName:  face 3.png
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Size:  76.3 KBName:  Face 4.png
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    Out of those four, the first one and last one seem the most feminine. But it still feels masculine, overall. Her chin feels too wide, and her overall jaw feels too big. The chin should be sharper, taper to more of a point. Her nose in the top one feels too flat and wide. Her lower lip seems like it should be fuller. All these features you've drawn can show up in women, but they don't conform to average female proportions.

    Quick paintover:
    Name:  m17c64ve.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by diamandis View Post
    Out of those four, the first one and last one seem the most feminine. But it still feels masculine, overall. Her chin feels too wide, and her overall jaw feels too big. The chin should be sharper, taper to more of a point. Her nose in the top one feels too flat and wide. Her lower lip seems like it should be fuller. All these features you've drawn can show up in women, but they don't conform to average female proportions.
    Ohh I get it now! Yeah I was really struggling with that haha. Thanks so much!

    So now I have a "finalized" sketch, which is this:
    Name:  Trial 3.png
Views: 415
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    And I've done some basic lines. Feel free to redline or tell me anything like poses or emotion that wasn't transferred from the sketch. Personally I think I'm pretty confused about the skirt and how it looks too repetitive? Are the hands alright as well? I'm still a bit iffy on the nose too.

    Name:  Lines 1.png
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    On a completely different note, as I don't really want to make another thread for this. Would anyone mind putting some input into this "finished" piece? I probably won't change it but it's definitely helpful to see anything that can be fixed for future reference.

    Name:  Red riding Hood.png
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    Last edited by Toriknew; February 7th, 2013 at 10:03 PM.
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    Pelvis is still wrong (on the first one)

    Quote Originally Posted by StefRob View Post
    I'm sorry but I disagree. In martial arts moves come from the hara which means that more or less when you throw your fist, you throw your hip before and toward your aim. Same thing occur with kicks.
    Well, I'm going to disagree with you. If you've got any sort of form stand up and throw an ordinary reverse punch and hold it in extension. Then look at how the weight is distributed on your legs and check the angle of your pelvis. (It might be subtle). It isn't a martial arts thing it is just the anatomical relationship between the angle of the shoulders and the pelvis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atreides View Post
    Pelvis is still wrong (on the first one)


    Well, I'm going to disagree with you. If you've got any sort of form stand up and throw an ordinary reverse punch and hold it in extension. Then look at how the weight is distributed on your legs and check the angle of your pelvis. (It might be subtle). It isn't a martial arts thing it is just the anatomical relationship between the angle of the shoulders and the pelvis.
    Uh I'm pretty confused as to what you mean by the relationship between the shoulders and the hips. Would it be too much trouble to ask for a more visual Explanation?

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    That pic you posted from the anatomy book up higher shows the principle. There is a section on balance in every anatomy drawing book. You haven't been taking your art vitamins.

    Basically, understand that movement comes from swinging weight around. When part of your body swings around another part has to counterbalance it. That counter balancing system relies on a set of dynamic arcs and angles in the skeletal system. In the torso the main relationships you need to understand are between the line of the spine, the angle of the shoulders and the angle of the hips. ( The angles as seen in a frontal plan view- a line drawn across the shoulders from acromion to acromion and on the hips from trochanter to trochanter)

    For our purposes you need to know that the line of the shoulders and the line of the hips will always be in opposition to each other. If the left hip is up, the left shoulder will be down, and vice versa. It it possible to come up with gestures that violate this rule , but not if the person is standing on the ground with no external forces acting on them aside from gravity. Your picture violates this rule. Further, the weighting is off. Your figure is stepping forward and taking the weight on the front leg. Bio mechanically, that hip must then be higher than the other, but you've drawn it lower.

    Why am I writing this? Just go and read the books, do lots of contraposto studies, you'll get the hang of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atreides View Post
    That pic you posted from the anatomy book up higher shows the principle. There is a section on balance in every anatomy drawing book. You haven't been taking your art vitamins.

    Basically, understand that movement comes from swinging weight around. When part of your body swings around another part has to counterbalance it. That counter balancing system relies on a set of dynamic arcs and angles in the skeletal system. In the torso the main relationships you need to understand are between the line of the spine, the angle of the shoulders and the angle of the hips. ( The angles as seen in a frontal plan view- a line drawn across the shoulders from acromion to acromion and on the hips from trochanter to trochanter)

    For our purposes you need to know that the line of the shoulders and the line of the hips will always be in opposition to each other. If the left hip is up, the left shoulder will be down, and vice versa. It it possible to come up with gestures that violate this rule , but not if the person is standing on the ground with no external forces acting on them aside from gravity. Your picture violates this rule. Further, the weighting is off. Your figure is stepping forward and taking the weight on the front leg. Bio mechanically, that hip must then be higher than the other, but you've drawn it lower.

    Why am I writing this? Just go and read the books, do lots of contraposto studies, you'll get the hang of it.
    First, thank you for this useful reminder about balance between shoulders and hips. It's indeed interesting.
    That being said, I maintain what I said. Please read it carefully because I think we're actually talking about differents things from the begining.
    The theory you give is right when you talk about balance of the hips-shoulders in the coronal plan. But here we are in a totally different position and it's mixed us I think. I was talking about the balance in transverse plan between shoulders and hips.
    One picture is better than thousands words:

    As you can see the right hip HAVE to turn and go forward because it's actually following the shoulders (or hips create the movement if you chose the point of view of martial arts but that's another story). And as you can see compared to the OP picture, his left elbow and shoulder are far from the extreme rotation the OP gave to his picture which would (and I dare to say: have to) accentuate the hips rotation.
    As I told you, I know the body by my sport experience and I've studied the rhumatology/anatomy/biomechanic for years in my med school to know what I'm talking about.
    Again thank you for this discussion, I've learned something from it that'll be useful in the future and I hope you too.

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    No we're talking about the same thing, I didn't deny that the hip swings forward in a straight right. Look at the picture you posted. The weight is clearly on the left leg and his right side is sagging. Compare the belt line on pic 1 and 2. It is simple gravity. The side that takes the weight is held in suspension by the muscles and skeleton and the other side is subject to gravity.

    However what you said made me think about it so I threw some punches and look what I found:

    Name:  punch-dynamic.png
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    A straight vs a body shot have completely inverted spine dynamics. I never even realised the head counter balances the torso like that! This is so cool! Notice that the relationship of the shoulder to hip line is the same but inverted? With the right shoulder down there is a bit of weight on the back leg, but the front leg is still taking most of the weight and therefore remains higher.

    What is going on is that a skilled athlete can modify the body's natural balance mechanisms. I worked out how to do it with the hips too, but couldn't be bothered drawing it.

    So I guess I was a little hasty in my original thesis. I said

    It it possible to come up with gestures that violate this rule , but not if the person is standing on the ground with no external forces acting on them aside from gravity.

    But I guess I should have said:

    Weight bearing hip is up and same side shoulder is down in most movement situations but external forces or deliberate action can cause the body to violate this rule.

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    Thanks for the useful feedback you guys! I haven't said this before, but she's not doing a straight punch, more like she's twisting? I think you both have really good points concerning the movement of the figure, but perhaps you guys are talking about two different kinds of punches?
    In any case, your feedback has given me a lot of insight into the position of my character. After throwing a few punches myself I noticed the twisting motion indeed created a sort of contraposto with the shoulder and hip line. I think my issue was in the top half of the figure actually. The ribcage I think should bend in a little more? I think I was trying to do 2 different kind of poses at once and they contradicted with each other. Here are some thumbs with the new pose laid out. Are these ok?

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    Yeah that's better. See how the back leg is an arc? The spine should have a similar arc in the same direction. In fact the front edge of the torso can form a continuous arc with the leg.

    Yeah, I knew it was a rockstar pose and not a punch, it's just that someone else used the example of a punch to argue the weighting and I wanted to argue with them.

    I like your second pic, by the way. Good lines, nice shape.

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    I'm just going to finalize this now U_U. It's been a while since her birthday and I don't want to drag it out too far haha. Thanks for the help guys! I hope my picture reflects that.

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