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    Drawing with a wacom as beginner

    Hello,

    I would like to know if it would be good to draw ( as a beginner) also with a Wacom tablet. I already have one, but until now i've only been drawing with a pencil and a paper. Would it be good to draw also with a tablet?

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    What do you mean by "good"? Is it going to be easier? Heck no. Is it going to make your artwork better? No. Is it going to damage your skills? Also no. It's just a tool. You can use it if you want, or not use it.

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    Well, I disagree with Vineris. Drawing with a intuos or bamboo is a problem because you can't draw with full range of motion and you aren't looking at what you draw in the same place as where you are drawing it. While these things are not insurmountable; why handicap yourself when you are starting out? Better to sit down with cheap paper and pencils and a kneaded eraser and learn to draw properly with everything available to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Well, I disagree with Vineris. Drawing with a intuos or bamboo is a problem because you can't draw with full range of motion and you aren't looking at what you draw in the same place as where you are drawing it. While these things are not insurmountable; why handicap yourself when you are starting out? Better to sit down with cheap paper and pencils and a kneaded eraser and learn to draw properly with everything available to you.
    I think it's important for newbies to discover some of these things for themselves. If you own a tablet and you need permission from CA to try it out... well, there's something fundamentally wrong there.

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    In addition there is a major drawback to working on a tablet (any type from Wacom to iPad)...that problem is the lack of tactile response. Traditional media have a nearly infinite range of physical surface interaction that effects the feel and the way you draw...charcoal is different than graphite, which is different from pastel, which is different from conte, which is different from ink, which is....etc. Add to that the wide range of paper or board surfaces and you can see that drawing with a plastic nib on a plastic surface just doesn't compare.

    Drawing is more than the lines, shapes and forms you see visually. While digital tools can make it look like traditional media, they can't make it respond or feel like traditional media.

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    Having looked at your sketchbook, I can say you'd find it easier to continue practicing with pencil on paper. You aren't nearly confident with those yet, to tackle the additional hurdles inherent to a tablet.

    Most people (me included) tend to sketch on paper, and then use a tablet to make a painting based on the sketch. Sketching on a tablet is too inexact and hard to control.

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    Mainly due to lag from the computers processing speed, and how the painting program is programmed. Even if your computer had the fastest memory cache in the CPU and Hard Disk, and the fastest GPU. You're still a victim of how the programmer wrote the painting program. How much lag you get, or if the lag is adjustable.

    Like Arenhaus, a lot of artists tend to transfer their drawing from pencil to computer.

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    Hey Vineris,

    CA is the home of GODS!

    NO one DARES DEFY the word of GODS!





    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmenSpirits View Post
    Hey Vineris,

    CA is the home of GODS!

    NO one DARES DEFY the word of GODS!



    Today I will be playing the part of Eris.

    I think you should draw with gravy. It is the best way to learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vineris View Post
    Today I will be playing the part of Eris.

    I think you should draw with gravy. It is the best way to learn.
    and it's delicious!

    Meanwhile- A lot of industries use wacoms now aside from just concept art, animation uses wacoms all the time. - So if you intend to make a go of certain professions it's essential - but certainly a long term concern. Otherwise it doesn't really matter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhubix View Post
    and it's delicious!

    Meanwhile- A lot of industries use wacoms now aside from just concept art, animation uses wacoms all the time. - So if you intend to make a go of certain professions it's essential - but certainly a long term concern. Otherwise it doesn't really matter
    "Industries" only care about one thing...whether or not you can draw/communicate visually. If you can draw you can learn the software and how to draw with a tablet...if you can't draw it doesn't matter. The reality is learning to draw with traditional tools and media is a far easier path.

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    Play with them. You will start to see for yourself what advantages and disadvantages there are and what very different ways of thinking can be caused by subtle differences.

    Il give you an example. Being able to infinitely erase with digital seems like an awesome learning advantage. You can tweak the line until its perfect. But it comes at a cost. You potentially start to focus on the line and not the whole. You stop thinking how this object passes behind this one and just think line, angle, shape. With enough time you can create a much more accurate drawing but you won't neccacerilly be actually thinking about WHAT it is your drawing. Like say if you doing an anatomy study of the sholder and drew a perfect deltoid you might not have been engaged at all in thinking about the deltoid as an actual thing in 3D space and how it works. Doesn't have to be that way. Won't always be that way. Just a tiny example of what I mean.

    Just play with it all. Be engaged with what your doing. You will experience it all on your own. No rules. Have fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whirly View Post
    [...] Il give you an example. Being able to infinitely erase with digital seems like an awesome learning advantage. You can tweak the line until its perfect. But it comes at a cost. You potentially start to focus on the line and not the whole. [...]
    I think practicing gesture drawing (digitally) or and/or thumbnailing a lot can help overcome this urge, since it allows the aspiring digital artist little to no time to tweak a line until it's perfect and forgetting the initial idea. Leaving little to no time to image manipulation consequently also helps moving the focus from the program to the drawing.

    Not pointed at you, but I also don't quite agree that one has to first master traditional media to become proficient with a graphics tablet, if we're speaking of technical skill (subject knowledge is of course universally transferable). They're almost completely different things. Even just speaking of sketching, the pen feel, friction on the tablet surface and especially the fact that eyes don't have to follow the pen tip but rather the pointer on the screen, rather often make accomplished traditional artists struggle when starting to work digitally.

    I would define traditional media more accessible (as long as you have a pen/pencil and paper you can draw anywhere, anytime) than digital and perhaps more physically involving in a way, but not necessarily a prerequisite for drawing directly on a pc with a graphics tablet. I know that not everybody has or has had this chance, but it's probably better to start early with it, if possible. Not doing so when it is (and especially in the case of the OP who already owns one), because "true artists"/CA gods don't do that is handicapping oneself.

    Last edited by s12a; December 30th, 2012 at 04:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by s12a View Post
    I think practicing gesture drawing (digitally) or and/or thumbnailing a lot can help overcome this urge, since it allows the aspiring digital artist little to no time to tweak a line until it's perfect and forgetting the initial idea. Leaving little to no time to image manipulation consequently also helps moving the focus from the program to the drawing.

    Not pointed at you, but I also don't quite agree that one has to first master traditional media to become proficient with a graphics tablet, if we're speaking of technical skill (subject knowledge is of course universally transferable). They're almost completely different things. Even just speaking of sketching, the pen feel, friction on the tablet surface and especially the fact that eyes don't have to follow the pen tip but rather the pointer on the screen, rather often make accomplished traditional artists struggle when starting to work digitally.

    I would define traditional media more accessible (as long as you have a pen and a per you can draw anywhere, anytime) than digital and perhaps more physically involving, in a way, but not necessarily a prerequisite for drawing directly on a pc with a graphics tablet. I know that not everybody has or has had this chance, but it's probably better to start early with it, if possible. Not doing so when it is (and especially in the case of the OP who already owns one), because true artists/CA gods "don't do that" is handicapping oneself.
    Not even close to reality, it takes a couple of weeks at most to pick up using a wacom tablet if you know how to draw traditionally at a pro level. You never learn sensitivity to line and all its attributes working in digital thats why most digitally trained artist have inferior ability and lesser careers.

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    When the OP becomes adept with pencil/pen, OP can move on to wacom.

    Truth be told, they will be more proficient with the wacom and have better control of the stylus.

    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
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    In addition to what dpaint and Jeff said, which I agree with completely- even though you can erase, learning to draw with a pencil or charcoal, or any other traditional media, forces you to make decisions about what you're doing. The unlimited scope for corrections in digital painting is fantastic for a lot of things, but having that much flexibility when you're learning can be a detriment. It can easily lead to an approach of fudging around endlessly until you hit on something you like, rather than learning to pre-visualize and commit to what you want.

    There are some digital artists who learned solely on that medium and turned out just fine, but it's comparatively rare. And, even in the case of guys like Rigney who can't paint traditionally (at least the last time I checked), he can blow most people out of the water with a pencil.

    Edit: None of that means, "don't touch the Wacom." By all means, play around with everything you can get your hands on. Experimentation's part of the process. Just don't neglect the traditional part.

    Last edited by Sidharth Chaturvedi; December 30th, 2012 at 04:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Not even close to reality, it takes a couple of weeks at most to pick up using a wacom tablet if you know how to draw traditionally at a pro level. You never learn sensitivity to line and all its attributes working in digital thats why most digitally trained artist have inferior ability and lesser careers.
    I know a few people who have drawn since they were able to hold a pencil and had a very hard time adapting to using a graphics tablet for digital work. One ended up buying a Cintiq because he couldn't manage drawing without looking at the pen, another one has a standard tablet but mostly sketches his drawings on paper first because he feels it better that way rather than doing it on his PC directly, which he uses mostly for inking and coloring (a cartoonist). Many who started drawing since very young and only relatively recently started working digitally have a similar workflow.

    However, here I really think you're mistaking one's past artistic experience for the medium used.
    Those who are "digitally trained", ie who literally have learned drawing on a graphics tablet, likely started drawing later in their lives than "traditionally trained" artists and have probably not attended or are not attending art schools (they would not be "digitally trained", otherwise). So it's only natural that they can do less than them: they know less about drawing, painting and art in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s12a View Post
    However, here I really think you're mistaking one's past artistic experience for the medium used.
    Those who are "digitally trained", ie who literally have learned drawing on a graphics tablet, likely started drawing later in their lives than "traditionally trained" artists and have probably not attended or are not attending art schools (they would not be "digitally trained", otherwise). So it's only natural that they can do less than them: they know less about drawing, painting and art in general.
    I don't see how that contradicts what Armand just said. You don't need art school to learn this stuff, incidentally. Practicing the things that the others are talking about (sensitivity, etc) is the best way to learn, without it none of the stuff a teacher will tell you really even makes sense. Starting later in life doesn't make as much difference as you might think.

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    there are restrictions to graphic tablets (cintiqs aswell) and thats the max. pen-tilt, the shape of the pen-nip, lack of (or difference in) texture, lack of brush "pens". etc.

    you can get quite comfortable drawing with those tools... the different brush options within one tool, textures/paper, layermodes etc add up to most likely counterbalance those deficiencies... its just something entirely different than traditional.

    BUT within digital everything is a possible subject to change all the time. nothing's set... thats good for production where theres all different changes to be made all the time. but for learning it sucks. go for it in pencil, acrylics, oil, whatever, and youll come to a moment where you are fighting with your medium, to force it to come close to the vision you had. there you learn. from the medium specific compromises you have to make, or work around the next time.
    digital is all mushy ... you learn little compared to traditional. if you place a patch of color in watercolor, and it doesnt fit, youre pretty much screwed. yet thats a good thing, because over time you build your craft based on trial and fail which equals experience for the last 10,000 years (or even longer). and theres a point where you did your best, things are off, but you know, you really dug into it, and its ok if there are areas that are less perfect than you would like them to be... but you put into it what you got, and thats the result. theres also that factor that there are really lucky accidents in there all the time. those happen due to a certain amount of unpredictability, they are your friends .

    all that doesnt happen in digital. it just does not. if thats off, change it, overlay, screen, saturation, curves, histogram, whatever. add, substract, multiply at will, erase, tint, etc.

    imo pictures are done when you just cant do better than what is on the canvas. thats not at all part of any digital paint simulation.


    youll be forced to use the all-time-changeable nature of digital soon enough... give yourself room to enjoy the haptic qualities of real mediums, exploit this freedom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidharth Chaturvedi
    I don't see how that contradicts what Armand just said. You don't need art school to learn this stuff, incidentally. Practicing the things that the others are talking about (sensitivity, etc) is the best way to learn, without it none of the stuff I teacher will tell you really even makes sense.
    I was speaking of universally applicable abstract knowledge and skills such artistic concepts/ideas, drawing experience (ie how to break down forms, color/light theory, etc), visual memory, subject knowledge, observation skills, however you posters seem to be referring to rather physical attributes and qualities of real media and saying that it is necessary to know them to excel in digital drawing/painting.

    Please, try defining as much as possible in a basic way how things like "sensitivity to line and all its attributes" and the "full range of motion" of traditional media (say paper and pencil, because that's what beginners without access to digital drawing media typically start with) apply to graphics tablet proficiency compared to the general artistic experience I mentioned.

    Last edited by s12a; December 30th, 2012 at 05:30 PM. Reason: reworded
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    Wacom Tablets have been around since the early 90's, 20 years. I still have my wacom Ultrapad from 94. Plenty of time to grow up drawing digitally from scratch, the reason its inferior is its is an incomplete learning tool. I didn't go to art school either but I did train a number of artists working in the industry. You think my experience is mistaken but you are basing your opinion on what exactly? You aren't a professional, you don't even draw enough to put up a sketchbook since you started asking how to learn how to draw 6 months ago. You probably aren't around any artists who make their living as artists. So why is my 20+ years of real world experience trumped by your lack of experience and ability when it comes to having a clue about learning to draw and paint digitally or otherwise?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Wacom Tablets have been around since the early 90's, 20 years. I still have my wacom Ultrapad from 94. Plenty of time to grow up drawing digitally from scratch, the reason its inferior is its is an incomplete learning tool. I didn't go to art school either but I did train a number of artists working in the industry. You think my experience is mistaken but you are basing your opinion on what exactly? You aren't a professional, you don't even draw enough to put up a sketchbook since you started asking how to learn how to draw 6 months ago. You probably aren't around any artists who make their living as artists. So why is my 20+ years of real world experience trumped by your lack of experience and ability when it comes to having a clue about learning to draw and paint digitally or otherwise?
    20 years ago, Wacom graphics tablets were expensive specialized tools for a very limited audience; computers weren't as ubiquitous as nowadays, they were expensive and graphics tablet enabled applications were hard to come by too. It was a time when computer graphics was mostly for Mac computers, further limiting the potential user base. Even only 10 years ago decently-sized Wacom tablets weren't as cheap as modern models yet, and the competition was still composed mostly of poorly supported, imprecise toy imitations with bulky, heavy stylus pens.

    Today it's a different story: any semi-economically independent teen or young adult can afford a Medium/formerly called A5-sized Wacom tablet. Computer graphics is not a Mac-only business anymore, and there is good free software around to suit one's artistic needs without the need to use pirated software. Now, try putting yourself in the shoes of a beginner just starting today. Sure, he could simply just use paper and pencil, that's the most readily available and logic choice. However a graphics tablet looks like an attractive choice too. Many young people seem to be starting the same way and sharing online their flashy colorful creations made exclusively digitally. That sounds fun too. So why go through the traditional media purgatorium first? Sure, when there's not a pc around, paper and pen/pencil is the way to go (wasn't sketching an artist's resting state after all?), but otherwise? Your answer to this is basically, paraphrased:

    "Learning drawing digitally is inferior. I'm a pro with a 20+ old real world experience, so you have to trust me"

    Which is not very satisfactory, to say the least. At least for me, who I don't usually just take things for granted.
    My posting history is irrelevant to this fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by sone_one
    there are restrictions to graphic tablets (cintiqs aswell) and thats[...]
    As even I said, digital and traditional media are different things. Different tools. One should not approach or see digital media as a way to emulate/simulate traditional media. I'm personally not expecting to learn how oil painting or water color or pencils physically work and feel though a graphics tablet, that's not what I was writing about all along. Perhaps there was some misunderstanding regarding this, leading to flaming discussions?

    Last edited by s12a; December 30th, 2012 at 06:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by s12a View Post
    I'm personally not expecting to learn how oil painting or water color or pencils physically work and feel though a graphics tablet, that's not what I was writing about all along. Perhaps there was some misunderstanding regarding this, leading to flaming discussions?
    didnt say you did, and wasnt replying to you exclusively.

    point is... and i wrote in length about it in my previous post... different hurdles bring different learning experiences. the biggest hurdle in digital is that theres none.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sone_one View Post
    didnt say you did, and wasnt replying to you exclusively.
    point is... and i wrote in length about it in my previous post... different hurdles bring different learning experiences. the biggest hurdle in digital is that theres none.
    Mine was some sort of collective answer too, with my point being that several aspects of artistic learning are media-agnostic while others such as specific-media mastering are not, and that's all I meant to say there. However, here I have to politely disagree in that I'm not sure on how the chance of screw-up when using real media actually affects learning. I think what counts is how many finished pieces (even if not perfectly polished) one is able to do in a given time frame rather than having to fight against the possible frustration of a ruined work. Many people faced with the chance of irreversible failure slow down considerably and this can affect learning speed negatively. But I guess that different people learn in different ways.

    Sure, with digital one has to be aware of what traps he can fall into. It helps to know them in advance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell
    To be fair: three-year-old abandoned sketchbook
    You seem to be assuming that by not keeping an updated sketchbook on CA it must mean that I'm not drawing. While this is a perfectly legitimate assumption, the way you both are pulling this information in this thread out of thin air is certainly not very elegant. You're also wrong, by the way. As I've written here a couple of months ago (your posts even show below mine) I did intend opening a new one recently, but I needed to know if there was a function to make thumbnails to make the size of my images manageable for the forum (I would have to crop, split and resize each one of them manually with a different program, otherwise). No answer to be seen so far. I'm assuming it's not possible to do like this, or preferably in a bit larger format, only with the internal CA uploader as per site guidelines:


    (click to enlarge)

    Files have of course piled up since.

    But this is terribly off-topic here. Anyway, in a way I have to thank you since you just demonstrated that my past posts and threads risk to be bullied and ridiculed if I dare posting dissenting opinions. I will definitely think twice about starting a new sketchbook here or updating the old one, for what matters. The general discussion tone from 'old members' I'm perceiving recently (I don't remember it being as bad in 2008/2009) is a further turn off.

    Last edited by s12a; December 30th, 2012 at 08:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by s12a View Post
    I think what counts is how many finished pieces (even if not perfectly polished) one is able to do in a given time frame rather than having to fight against the possible frustration of a ruined work. Many people faced with the chance of irreversible failure slow down considerably and this can affect learning speed negatively. But I guess that different people learn in different ways.

    Sure, with digital one has to be aware of what traps he can fall into. It helps to know them in advance.
    i give you to think so. art is no math equation.

    [edit] you think art equals the least laborious result out of a given number of options? ^^

    Last edited by sone_one; December 30th, 2012 at 08:26 PM.
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    maaaaan

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    Quote Originally Posted by s12a View Post

    "Learning drawing digitally is inferior. I'm a pro with a 20+ old real world experience, so you have to trust me"

    Which is not very satisfactory, to say the least. At least for me, who I don't usually just take things for granted.
    My posting history is irrelevant to this fact.
    That is very disrespectful and ignorant to say something like this. I don't personally understand what is special about the wacom, I just try to use my sisters for the heck of it. I didn't like it at all.

    I wonder if I am the only person in my generation who prefer to do comics and art in the traditional manner.

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    Elwell is offline Sticks Like Grim Death Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    You aren't a professional, you don't even draw enough to put up a sketchbook since you started asking how to learn how to draw 6 months ago.
    To be fair: three-year-old abandoned sketchbook


    Tristan Elwell
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    whatever... its no dick-measuring contest. just a bunch of opinions. and eventhough ive petted mine appr. 15 yrs longer than most here doesnt mean it IS longer.

    ffs get over it, all this "im king of the castle" behaviour is getting old. no need to prove how right youre supposed to be... your opinion either is percieved like its right, or not. who cares. this is the internet.

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    ..yup

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