Artist cheating clients out of money.
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Thread: Artist cheating clients out of money.

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    Wasp Artist cheating clients out of money.

    I often frequent Deviant Art's Job Offers Forums (Yes I know...) and ran across this posting where a client was "Looking to spend $50-75 depending on skill level and quality". I decided just to check around some of the people who were applying when I ran into a interesting exchange of comments.

    "I'll do it for $20 I'll sketch it up and show you if you don't like you won't have to pay then I'll upload a low quality pic if you don't like you won't have to pay then I'll upload a high quality pic you'll have to pay"- This comment came from a very new artist with...Er...Not the best of work. (Not trying to be rude!) Who I say normally charges that much.

    In responds he got this "if the client is offering a rate you shouldn't go lowering it to the floor. if you want to apply, show your portfolio. but if the client doesn't ask for bids you should refrain from the unethical behaviour of offering the work for peanuts,
    and much less for free, if you don't need the money go to the projects forum where people look for artists but can't afford one."

    What are your thoughts about people who over charge clients just because of their budgets? IMO I think an artist should always stick with prices and not alter them based on client. I mean you come up with your prices based off of how much time/complexity/profit you would like to make, so why charge more just cause you can? I think it really takes a hit at the integrity of that artist. I hardly see it as undercutting.

    *I also mean this not in industry standards but in terms of DA (Young non-professional artist/not commercial jobs)

    Edit* Maybe I'm really saying this weird??? I'm asking would it be correct for this guy who is a beginner (DA beginner, not industry beginner) to charge 2-3 times more because the client has that much money

    Last edited by Mr.Thorns; December 23rd, 2012 at 12:37 AM. Reason: Was too vague!
     

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    Er- Also I'm sorry if this is in the wrong location! Wasn't sure if it was better to ask here or in the General Off-Topic

     

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    Artists should have a base rate they charge for their work and it should be set at industry standards. Having said that though if a client wants to pay more than that rate then that is the clients decision and the price could be affected by many things, time frame to complete the project, complexity of the project, Licensing rights- its not a black and white issue. If you are offering work for less than industry standards then you are a scab. In the USA industry standard is at least 25 an hour.

     

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    The client just said "Looking to spend $50-75 depending on skill level and quality" not that he spending that much on whoever he hired though. I mean it's fine if the clients doesn't mind paying more but my issue is artist are greatly increasing their rate just cause of that. It's like if I drew stick figures my rate should be lower than other more experiences artist. It really seems more like misleading the client into thinking they charge that much rather than the client deciding they want to spend their whole budget on that said artist.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Thorns View Post
    The client just said "Looking to spend $50-75 depending on skill level and quality" not that he spending that much on whoever he hired though. I mean it's fine if the clients doesn't mind paying more but my issue is artist are greatly increasing their rate just cause of that. It's like if I drew stick figures my rate should be lower than other more experiences artist. It really seems more like misleading the client into thinking they charge that much rather than the client deciding they want to spend their whole budget on that said artist.
    Trust me, of all the problems in the world, artists overcharging for work is about number 148,623.


    Tristan Elwell
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Artists should have a base rate they charge for their work and it should be set at industry standards. Having said that though if a client wants to pay more than that rate then that is the clients decision and the price could be affected by many things, time frame to complete the project, complexity of the project, Licensing rights- its not a black and white issue. If you are offering work for less than industry standards then you are a scab. In the USA industry standard is at least 25 an hour.
    I can understand that if this was on CA but on DA these jobs aren't really professional. In this case it was a small time commission for non commercial use with lots of nooby artist applying. It would be insane for them to charge industry standards. (I suppose I should have specific the level of work they were looking for)

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Thorns View Post
    IMO I think an artist should always stick with prices and not alter them based on client. I mean you come up with your prices based off of how much time/complexity/profit you would like to make, so why charge more just cause you can? I think it really takes a hit at the integrity of that artist.
    So, if I do an a job for an ad agency with millions of dollars in billing annually, I should charge them the same as if I do a flyer for a local club? Give me a fucking break.
    If a client has a budget, and you do work for that budget, BY DEFINITION you aren't overcharging them. And if your work isn't professional quality, the way to get work is to make your work better, not try try to be cheaper than anyone else. The response that poster got was ABSOLUTELY the right advice.

    Last edited by Elwell; December 22nd, 2012 at 11:51 PM.

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    No you don't understand what goes into a job. Its not what the end result is, its client satisfaction and creativity. Saul Bass was paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to millions of dollars to design logos. Its not always about how hard it is to draw. Here are just a few of them
    http://annyas.com/saul-bass-logo-design-then-now/

    Bass was paid 2 million to develop this logo in 1968

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    Last edited by dpaint; December 22nd, 2012 at 11:53 PM.
     

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    DA ≠ anything resembling the real world.


    Tristan Elwell
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    This is a deviantart job for a random person who will probably use it for a fanfiction, not a multi-billion dollar job. I can understand everyones logic if this was in a proffessional setting.. but from the looks of OP, what it seems like is someone charging someone else 75$ even though they normally charge $20 just because the client has the money. You cannot expect someone who just picked up anime art yesterday to charge industry standard prices, or expect anyone to pay industry standards when its nothing but small time individual jobs for 15 year old girls.

    In a more individual setting, if I was the client, I would see it as "This fuckers charging me triple just because I have the money"

     

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    I do agree with you Elwell when you put it into the sense of the real world but I was more asking in the example I gave. I mean I really do understand for real jobs it is very different but for DA terms I really find it kind of crappy to try and charge a lot just cause you can. This isn't any type industry jobs posted on DA so you can't really take how they work into DA standards.

    (Looking at my opening post I see I prob should have been a bit more specific as to the terms of everything >> Just wanted to avoid a textwall)

     

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    The original job listing was for "$50-75 depending on skill level and quality." So, I assume they had an idea of the quality they were looking for, and what (to them) a fair price was for it.


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    Exactly, that's the thing though. If someone who already does MUCH lower level art then how is it undercutting? It's them giving their prices based off of their level so it's not like their taking a job from anyone or really any threat. That's why I said imo it would be a wrong to charge $50-$75

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Thorns View Post
    Exactly, that's the thing though. If someone who already does MUCH lower level art then how is it undercutting? It's them giving their prices based off of their level so it's not like their taking a job from anyone or really any threat. That's why I said imo it would be a wrong to charge $50-$75
    The $20 quote is probably more a result of them having little idea about the costs involved running a business.

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    But if their art sucks, they're not going to get the job anyway, so what they would charge is a moot point. And if their art doesn't suck, they should be paid fairly.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    But if their art sucks, they're not going to get the job anyway, so what they would charge is a moot point. And if their art doesn't suck, they should be paid fairly.
    Thats going beyond the point to a different point. From the looks, it looks like some guy was charging his base price of $20 which was a normal price for his level of art. Then he got attacked because he was undercutting others who were charging more, despite the fact that they drew better anyways. Thats the basis of the question, would it be correct for this guy who is a beginner (DA beginner, not industry beginner) to charge 2-3 times more because the client has that much money.

    It seems more of a situation of people charging much more than they normally do because some guy has money. Thats kinda like a carnival altering their admission prices depending on how much money each customer has.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azu View Post
    Thats the basis of the question, would it be correct for this guy who is a beginner (DA beginner, not industry beginner) to charge 2-3 times more because the client has that much money.
    Well shit, Azu. That's exactly what I was trying to ask. Maybe my my brain is going stupid from all my coffee and I worded it all weird. Glad you got it though!

     

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    some guy walks up to you and offers you 100 bucks for your backpack. You say its only worth 25 bucks and he can buy one at Walmart for that price. He says I don't care I want yours and I'll give you 100 for it. You refuse to sell it because you think your cheating him and walk away. Who's the idiot in that scenario?

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    some guy walks up to you and offers you 100 bucks for your backpack. You say its only worth 25 bucks and he can buy one at Walmart for that price. He says I don't care I want yours and I'll give you 100 for it. You refuse to sell it because you think your cheating him and walk away. Who's the idiot in that scenario?
    I think you're missing the point. It's more like someone going "I have 100$ to spend on a backpack" and some guy with a ripped up stained one says "Take this one for 20$ dude" and everyone yells at him "YOU SHOULD CHARGE $100"


    In your scenario it would be correct if the client went to the small time artist and offered him 100$. It was the other way around, its someone going to a listing and offering them shit FOR 100$. Whether the client declines their offer or not is a different point all together. The entire point is "Is it okay for that artist to overcharge and pretty much deceive the client into thinking thats how much he always charges, because the client can afford it" It matters not if he would get the job or not. It's more on morals.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    some guy walks up to you and offers you 100 bucks for your backpack. You say its only worth 25 bucks and he can buy one at Walmart for that price. He says I don't care I want yours and I'll give you 100 for it. You refuse to sell it because you think your cheating him and walk away. Who's the idiot in that scenario?
    Thats backwards actually. It's more like someone saying they have $100 and wants to buy a backpack, and some guy with a crappy ripped up stained backpack says "you can have this one for $25" and everyone rages at him because he should charge $100 because thats how much money the guy has.

    In OPs story, the client didnt go to the artist, the artist applied to a listing and charged what he normally charges. Then other artists got mad for not overpricing his work 3-4x. By that logic everyone should charge EXACTLY the same. EVERYONES price will be identical regardless of skill.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    some guy walks up to you and offers you 100 bucks for your backpack. You say its only worth 25 bucks and he can buy one at Walmart for that price. He says I don't care I want yours and I'll give you 100 for it. You refuse to sell it because you think your cheating him and walk away. Who's the idiot in that scenario?

    Thats backwards actually. It's more like some guy saying he has $100 and wants to buy a backpack, and some dude offers his shitty beat up torn backpack for $25. Then everyone else rages at him for not charging $100.

    In OPs story, the client didn't come to the artist, but the other way around. The artist applied to a listing, and offered to charge his base price of $20 when OTHER artists got pissed that he didn't overcharge 3-4x just because the person who made the listing could afford it.


    Should the artist have applied in the first place? No, hes not ready. But the original questions was if he should have risen his price, not if he should have applied.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azu View Post
    Thats backwards actually. It's more like some guy saying he has $100 and wants to buy a backpack, and some dude offers his shitty beat up torn backpack for $25. Then everyone else rages at him for not charging $100.

    But the original questions was if he should have risen his price, not if he should have applied.
    I think the real question is if it's any of your damn business.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    I think the real question is if it's any of your damn business.
    Uh... I'm discussing the morality of it.. I really don't even care who OP was referring to. This entire post really seems to be about morals and peoples opinion on it, not "look at this person! *link* tell me what you think about this guy in particular!" No one is targeting anyone's business. That's like someone asking CA about a clients questionable behavior, and everyone replying "Its none of our business" whenever someone is just trying to have a discussion.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azu View Post
    Uh... I'm discussing the morality of it.. I really don't even care who OP was referring to. This entire post really seems to be about morals and peoples opinion on it, not "look at this person! *link* tell me what you think about this guy in particular!" No one is targeting anyone's business. That's like someone asking CA about a clients questionable behavior, and everyone replying "Its none of our business" whenever someone is just trying to have a discussion.
    Morality? It's a business.

    They're not posting up hookers and blow and putting people out of homes. You're over here starting up a poll about a person who shouldn't have applied in the first place. The answer is it's up to the client as to whether or not they will hire him or her, and what that client will pay is none of our fucking business if they charge more.

    Their qualifications are determined by the person hiring. Not the public.

    That's like whether or not we should involve ourselves in the hiring process of a kid applying for any other job he/she is not qualified for.

    Exactly what consumer protection is this thread about? The client can make the final decision. A client can terminate the agreement especially if they're supposed to negotiate in the first place. So what is the point of this morality? What is the point of coming over and bugging CA about it? It's a problem on DA, then address the problem on Deviant Art!

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Morality? It's a business.

    They're not posting up hookers and blow and putting people out of homes. You're over here starting up a poll about a person who shouldn't have applied in the first place. The answer is it's up to the client as to whether or not they will hire him or her, and what that client will pay is none of our fucking business if they charge more.

    Their qualifications are determined by the person hiring. Not the public.

    That's like whether or not we should involve ourselves in the hiring process of a kid applying for any other job he/she is not qualified for.

    Exactly what consumer protection is this thread about? The client can make the final decision. A client can terminate the agreement especially if they're supposed to negotiate in the first place. So what is the point of this morality? What is the point of coming over and bugging CA about it? It's a problem on DA, then address the problem on Deviant Art!

    So no one can ever ask opinions on anything? If this was my thread I don't know if I should increase my prices depending on the budget of a client because it was none of my damn business to ask CA on the matter? Again no one is discussing the point of whether someone should apply or not, if they are qualified, or what their prices should be. The only question really being asked was "should an artist do this? and if so why?" No one is involving themselves in someone else's applications or anything. I know at least for myself I was curious to see CA's view on the matter so I know what I should be doing in that situation. No one is even involved.

    I don't understand why you're getting so irate over someone asking a question that can actually help anyone if put in a situation like this. That was an overreaction. I know I've applied to jobs before that had a budget over what I charged. It's not that uncommon. Just because its a business does not mean morals don't exist. Just look at apple, its a business with morality debates across the entire globe.

     

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    I'm not over here on CA complaining "Someone dooooooo something!!! Wahhhh" I'm asking thoughts on it. I also hardly see asking peoples thought on the matter bugging CA. If you don't like this thread you can ignore it. It's not like I'm sitting here mass creating them. Not ever thread will appeal to your taste. Just ignore it rather than being rude.


    @ Charlie D

    lmao No problem! Thanks for your point of view, it really did help me understand a bit more from the other side of debate (Not sure what else to call it).

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    I think the real question is if it's any of your damn business.
    Wow...This isn't some closed off discussion. No need to be rude. Just people giving their thoughts on the varies points


    @Vineris

    Yea that's true with big corporations but when you do that on DA you aren't getting back at the companies who are fucking over artist. You are fucking over some random Joe who is just wanted some fanart of his OC. I can understand your side though I still think it's wrong for a artist to go up to some client who has a budget on $100 then decides to rise his price to 100 vs an client saying I can pay you 100 and the artist agreeing. If the client is offering to give you more, cool. But if you are purposely jacking up your prices trying to take all his money it really seems kind of low to do. (In terms of it's a normal person just looking for art. Of course if it's a company I could see it differently.)

     

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    I took a gander at that thread. This is direct from the customer: "I'm looking for someone who has the skill, talent, and expertise to charge at minimum $40+ for their time and effort". This artist shouldn't even be applying for the job in the first place if he doesn't belief he has the qualifications to do it (and he definitely doesn't. His gallery is full of crap sonic recolours and bad manga ripoffs). Just because I can put a table together from IKEA doesn't mean I can apply for a job to build a house.

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    Yea but that's not really the point I'm after (Not to mention on DA it's a losing battle trying to get artist to think before they post)

     

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    The person could have spent 5 hours on that Mr Thomas. Should we pay him/her a fair price or slave wage??

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