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  1. #1
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    Current project.

    Name:  Slave Kara_3.jpg
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    After numerous critiques on my previous version of this art, I completely re worked it, Critis are welcome.
    Making less progress on it than I hoped but I would like to get some critiques on it before I become too attatched to the progress I have made already
    Looking for improvement in the anatomy shading, especially on the face, particulaly, but anything else you see that needs picking at would help

    Last edited by TagoTarTogus; December 20th, 2012 at 02:09 PM.
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  3. #2
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    HI

    I hate to be a downer here, but... you haven't really addressed the criticisms in your previous version, this looks almost identical except a different background (which has new problems all it's own). Stop trying to do this from imagination. Draw your living room so you can see how walls, floors and curtains fit together. Throw a blanket on the floor and sketch it. Make sure you get the perspective right. Find a reference photo or a good friend and draw that. No color right now. Get the anatomy right.

    THEN...come back and post - you will have had a chance to solve the easily fixable issues and people can help you with fine-tuning.

    Hope that helps

    D'Arcy

    p.s. seriously - no color...they are so saturated and unnatural that they really hurt my eyes :-)

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  4. #3
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    Stop trying to use Photoshop, stop trying to color line art. Get a pencil, a pack of printer paper, "Figure Drawing" by Loomis and "Perspective Made Easy" by Norling, and learn to do structural drawing. You aren't anywhere near ready to handle a color picture.

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  5. #4
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    Name:  Slave Kara1.jpg
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    More progress. Sad that I am getitng better critiques on tumblr than I am here.
    As for the critiques... I have been finding them very unhelpful, on this site. I have only been getting general comments along the lines of "Your anatomy is horrible go look at books" without saying anything specific. I would find things like "Her torso is too short. You need to lengthen it so that she has room for her guts" helpful (Which is one of the things I found was wrong on the old picture). I would find "Her face is off. You need to work on that a little more" helpful.
    the lineart I am skipping. My goal on this piece as far as that goes was to work with line weight.
    In the last picture, I was told the lighting was off. I got a GOOD critique, that pointed out specific flaws, on my last part, so I have been trying to work with it. Like light sources. An explaining what is wrong with the picture more than "Everything is wrong"
    Telling me I should quit at digital art, when the industry I am trying to get into is predominantly digital, is not helpful. Telling me to "Quit photoshop" when the only way to LEARN how to make good art in photshop is to practice with photoshop, is not helpful. Same with color. I cant learn how to work with color well if I do not practice. Telling me to quit what I am trying to learn is not helpful.
    Yes I will study Loomis.
    I have the books, at least in PDF format. I will make studies from the books. But I will also study from photos. and most of the good photos are.

    My proferssor told me the people here are pros and that I can learn a lot here.
    I am here to LEARN, and get critiques. Proper critiques. Critiques that actually tell me what is wrong with my artwork. But at this rate, I am sorely disappointed, and feel that I would be getting better critiques on devantart, where there is a minumum text requirement in the critique program, so that the critiquer actually has to give informative feedback.

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  6. #5
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    The reason why you get crits saying, "study more anatomy", rather than, "this arm is too short" or whatever, is because they are a LOT of issues with your anatomy, generally if a drawing has so many mistakes in the basic construction, you won't learn anything by asking for quick fixes. You will end up spending hours on it trying to get it right, and failing because you just don't know enough about what you're doing yet. So ultimately it depends on what you want from drawing; do you just want to draw this particular picture as best as you can, or do you actually want to get better at drawing? If the latter, you first will need to get better at basic drawing, which is much much easier to learn with pencil and paper, rather than photoshop. You will never learn how to properly shade (in photoshop or whatever) if you can't draw the form correct. The advice here sounds harsh, but will actually be much more helpful in the long run than giving you a redline or trying to fix the many issues in this.
    Noone is telling you to quit or give up, but just take a step back and start at the beginning, rather than trying to learn everything (perspective, anatomy, shading, color, lines, photoshop etc) all at once.
    If you don't much care about improvement in your skills, but just want to finish this one drawing; feel free to ignore us (;

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  8. #6
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    Hoo boy. You aren't really getting it. Pfutzing more with a flawed drawing is NOT going to get you quick progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by TagoTarTogus View Post
    More progress. Sad that I am getitng better critiques on tumblr than I am here.
    Sorry, but this isn't progress. This is unaffectionately known as "polishing the turd". Progress would happen if you do 1000 quick sketches of simple objects and human figures, preferably from life. Spending this much time with a poor drawing is only reinforcing bad habits, and you need to build good ones.

    As for the critiques... I have been finding them very unhelpful, on this site. I have only been getting general comments along the lines of "Your anatomy is horrible go look at books" without saying anything specific.
    It's because your problems with anatomy are global, not specific. They go below anatomy into basic structure. You ignore perspective, and you don't have a good grasp of proportion yet; and you have already colored this thing, which means that you cannot fix it easily as you could a sketch. If you try to shorten the torso, you'd have to repaint a good portion of the image. But that is irrelevant, because you are not using a structural drawing method, you are trying to guess the lines. This won't work.

    Next time, show sketches. Sketches are tools you use to build a composition and solve the problems that need to be solved before you paint. Tweaking an image with this amount of finish is futile; draw another one. And then another one, and more. Forget line and color, you need to learn to draw volume.

    Telling me I should quit at digital art, when the industry I am trying to get into is predominantly digital, is not helpful.
    Forgive me, but that is simply stupid. Photoshop is a tool, and digital is just a medium. It is ten times faster and easier to learn drawing with pencil and paint in real paint, and THEN proceed to Photoshop or whatever. The principles of image making are the same, and independent of the tools. But some tools are more conductive than others, and a computer is not one of those.

    Your problems are not going to go away if you learn Photoshop better. They will only go away if you learn DRAWING. Otherwise, you road into the industry will be a long and meandering one, and you'll likely be plagued by the same structural problems years from now, and be forced to relearn. It's your choice.

    My proferssor told me the people here are pros and that I can learn a lot here. I am here to LEARN, and get critiques. Proper critiques. Critiques that actually tell me what is wrong with my artwork. But at this rate, I am sorely disappointed, and feel that I would be getting better critiques on devantart, where there is a minumum text requirement in the critique program, so that the critiquer actually has to give informative feedback.
    And you are a total expert on what constitutes a proper critique, right? Teach us from your extensive experience, o enlightened one.

    Seriously, what the beep? You ARE getting advice that it is proper for YOUR case. Some people need to be told general structural things like "you made the torso too long, and the left eye is disconnected from the skull". Some need to be told about tiny nitpicking obstacles like "add more subsurface scattered light in the backlit ear." And some, like you, need to be yelled at: "STOP, YOU ARE DOING IT ALL WRONG!!!"

    So stop. You are doing it all wrong. You need to build a different working method, because the one you are using now is counterproductive and an impediment on your progress.

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  10. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by TagoTarTogus View Post
    My proferssor told me the people here are pros and that I can learn a lot here.
    "when the student is ready the teacher will appear"
    It honestly comes off to me that you're not yet ready for critique that goes beyond simple "X is problem, do Y to fix it".
    You're trying to learn things yet you seem to also try to skip a lot of the important previous steps (like understanding values before going to colour), which is why you're being told to go back and learn them.

    "I eat comics and poop stylization"
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  11. #8
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    Photoshop is a tool its not a solution. The reason you can't use photoshop is you don't understand basic drawing and painting principles. Argue all you want. Unless you stop this you will never get anywhere near being a professional artist. Its your choice, ignore all the good advice and stay an amateur all your life or leave the digital tools alone and get into a life drawing class and crack the books with basic pencil and cheap paper. You need to do 1000's of drawings from life, 1000's. It will take at least 2 or 3 years from where you are right now if you start tomorrow probably longer cause you think you know better.

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  13. #9
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    You are all right and I am sorry for lashing out when you were only trying to help.
    I havent been doing studies lately, it is true, and I need to get back into that habit.
    I am used to critiques that list specifics, and have been a bit frustrated because I am unused to the kinds of critiques I have been getting, especially when I need to rework and possibly throw out a whole bunch of things I learned in my life drawing classes and am wondering why my teacher for the classes never pointed out my mistakes. I am womdering how long this has been going on, and I am VERY new to CA.org, and have just got hit by a whole bunch of criticism and am still reeling from that.
    But that it no excuse for my rant, and I will start studying loomis and other figure drawing books and resources asap, focus on those for a while, and keep them to my sketchbook before stating any projects. Hopefully I can get to the point my overall anatomy improves to the point that people arent overwlemed with horror and saying "fix everything", and start pointing out specifics.
    It is my own fault for not practicing, and I shouldnt take it out on you wonderful people.
    any other resourses, like websites and books, would be appreciated.

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    Wow, that was awesome. You just swallowed some very harsh criticism and managed a smile. Good on you.

    The reason the critique section sounds like a broken record (wait, is anybody here old enough to remember what a broken record sounds like?)...since time immemorial, artists in the West have trained the same way. Drawing simple shapes and still lifes, studying anatomy, copying master drawings, doing drapery studies. It's a long, slow process...but it works. Representational art is hella hard to do.

    Artists without formal training often skip some of that. There have been some excellent self-taught artists, but most show deficiencies from things they missed. Or their progress is slower. Or they don't quite reach their potential.

    It doesn't mean you have to stop drawing flaming lizard ladies. But you need to do more of the hard eye training so you know why this one drew so much criticism.

    I was once on the receiving end of a critique so savagely nasty, I marched straight out of class to the office and changed my major (sketchbook).
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  17. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TagoTarTogus View Post
    You are all right and I am sorry for lashing out when you were only trying to help.
    I havent been doing studies lately, it is true, and I need to get back into that habit.
    I am used to critiques that list specifics, and have been a bit frustrated because I am unused to the kinds of critiques I have been getting, especially when I need to rework and possibly throw out a whole bunch of things I learned in my life drawing classes and am wondering why my teacher for the classes never pointed out my mistakes. I am womdering how long this has been going on, and I am VERY new to CA.org, and have just got hit by a whole bunch of criticism and am still reeling from that.
    But that it no excuse for my rant, and I will start studying loomis and other figure drawing books and resources asap, focus on those for a while, and keep them to my sketchbook before stating any projects. Hopefully I can get to the point my overall anatomy improves to the point that people arent overwlemed with horror and saying "fix everything", and start pointing out specifics.
    It is my own fault for not practicing, and I shouldnt take it out on you wonderful people.
    any other resourses, like websites and books, would be appreciated.
    Yeah, good for you then. Remember when you copy Loomis or other pro work ,copy it over and over until it looks like Loomis or who ever; don't settle for some bad knockoff that gets the pose but none of the quality. You should always be striving for accuracy and quality and shame on your teacher for not holding you to those standards.

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  19. #12
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    I did a very rough paint-over to show you how you can use color to lay out the image before you start detailing. You need to introduce some level of contrast to give the viewer something to look at, and don't be afraid to trim the image to make it as concise as possible.

    Attached Images Attached Images  
    My Website...
    www.keithwhalenart.com
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  21. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TagoTarTogus View Post
    I am used to critiques that list specifics, and have been a bit frustrated because I am unused to the kinds of critiques I have been getting, especially when I need to rework and possibly throw out a whole bunch of things I learned in my life drawing classes and am wondering why my teacher for the classes never pointed out my mistakes. I am womdering how long this has been going on.
    Art is a lifelong learning process. You are always going to be throwing things out and adjusting this and trying that. Just get used to the idea. When art stops changing, chances are good that you're beating a dead horse.

    *** Sketchbook * Landscapes * Portfolio * Store***

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  23. #14
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    Thank you very much. I appreciate the paint over. It is really helping the message click

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  24. #15
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    Looks like you've changed your attitude! That takes guts, I must say.

    Just wanted to say that when you work with books, don't copy the tables. Use the tables to understand the method and as guides to what you are seeing around you, but do your own sketches applying the knowledge in the book.

    And start small. Even a simple cube can be a challenging task to draw at first, if you do it properly.

    Good luck.

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  25. #16
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    Yes ! It is so nice to see someone who has the courage to stop and reflect as you have just done. That ability by itself, by the way bodes well for future art - it means you are more likely to make the changes the art needs to become something real instead of grinding on to the end with a fatally flawed concept. You'll also be in good company: http://muddycolors.blogspot.fi/2012/...flip-side.html

    Cheers

    D'Arcy

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  26. #17
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    Yes ! It is so nice to see someone who has the courage to stop and reflect as you have just done. That ability by itself, by the way bodes well for future art - it means you are more likely to make the changes the art needs to become something real instead of grinding on to the end with a fatally flawed concept. You'll also be in good company: http://muddycolors.blogspot.fi/2012/...flip-side.html

    Cheers

    D'Arcy

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