Do you think this a valid method to get better?
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    Do you think this a valid method to get better?

    I suck hard at drawing women as a whole, even more so sexy woman. I can never give them the kind of subtle sexual appeal that a cute one would have (like in attachment 1) or that femme fatale strong sex appeal, like Rachel from the newer Sherlock movies. My female characters all look a little to much androgynous or just not sexy. So I thought a way to try to get better. What I would do (and I'm already trying it out) is that I would get a image from the internet that represents what I want to show (again, like in attachment 1) and would deconstruct all the elements. The skeleton, the muscles, the body mass and so on and so forth. Do you guys it's worth a shot?

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    Practice gesture; half of the sexiness in the female form comes from how they hold themselves. Try not to use other people's stylized anatomy, find real people. Images are okay - live is far better.

     

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    Uhm. No. Look at sexy women. In real life or photos (if you don't have a real life). Try to figure out what makes them sexy. Learn to draw them. From observation and from your head.

    Also, why don't you post one of your drawings, instead of someone elses? This way we can tell you what you're doing wrong. Maybe "sexy" isn't what your figures are lacking after all.

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    You need to have more personal interactions with real-life women. I see a lot of artwork similar to the example you're going after, and in my opinion stuff like that isn't even fit to be called pin-up art. The bodies are always heavily sexualized, but the faces are reduced to symbols. It's pretty much the definition of "objectification" - looking at women from the neck down, and being utterly disinterested in their personalities or specifics.

    Please know that I'm not accusing you of being sexist. Instead I think it's a consequence of looking at women as mystical, unattainable beings (which lots of young men do before they have more real-world experience with lots of different women). For this reason I'm guessing that you might be a young man (please correct me if I'm making a mistake).

    Also, I'm not saying there's something wrong with painting sexy ladies. Artists like Egon Schiele, for example, painted rather sexually explicit portraits of the women they were involved with -- but his work was good because it was based on his personal perception of those women, their personalities, what he thought was sexy about them in particular.

    Real women (including their real female sexuality) are out there to meet or observe in life. You have to base your artwork on your actual experiences or else you are just repeating someone else's idea of what a woman is (or what a space marine is, or what a tree is).

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igoos View Post
    I suck hard at drawing women as a whole
    Looking at your pic in C&C, you are having serious issues with the very basics of human form. You do not put eyes in the correct place on the face. You do not put the neck in the correct place between the shoulders. You are guessing at what humans look like when you draw them. So of course going beyond that and drawing a sexy human is going to be even more difficult.

    If I were you, I would first get photos of humans and practice breaking them down into major 3D shapes with an emphasis on getting the proportions correct. Then when you can reliably draw a person in proportion, you can work on body language and figuring out exactly what is going on with a body in a pose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tobbA View Post
    In real life or photos (if you don't have a real life).
    That hurt... my feelings! Jk, I really don't have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tobbA View Post
    Also, why don't you post one of your drawings, instead of someone elses? This way we can tell you what you're doing wrong. Maybe "sexy" isn't what your figures are lacking after all.
    Because I don't have anything anymore. Not even old stuff. A few months ago, my frustration on the problems I had with human figure, especially female ones, built up to such high levels due to my inability to show what I wanted to show, to my problems with body structure, despite my efforts, daily training and having books on the subject that I decided to set the subject aside for a while before I had a breakdown. Since then I've been doing most backgrounds and landscapes and I'm just returning to it now.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by neonnoodle View Post
    You need to have more personal interactions with real-life women. I see a lot of artwork similar to the example you're going after, and in my opinion stuff like that isn't even fit to be called pin-up art. The bodies are always heavily sexualized, but the faces are reduced to symbols. It's pretty much the definition of "objectification" - looking at women from the neck down, and being utterly disinterested in their personalities or specifics.

    Please know that I'm not accusing you of being sexist. Instead I think it's a consequence of looking at women as mystical, unattainable beings (which lots of young men do before they have more real-world experience with lots of different women). For this reason I'm guessing that you might be a young man (please correct me if I'm making a mistake).

    Also, I'm not saying there's something wrong with painting sexy ladies. Artists like Egon Schiele, for example, painted rather sexually explicit portraits of the women they were involved with -- but his work was good because it was based on his personal perception of those women, their personalities, what he thought was sexy about them in particular.

    Real women (including their real female sexuality) are out there to meet or observe in life. You have to base your artwork on your actual experiences or else you are just repeating someone else's idea of what a woman is (or what a space marine is, or what a tree is).
    No, I'm not at that age (I'm turning 20 in June). Also, I never thought of women as nymph-like beings. Women are just people, and like people, I don't give much of a f*** about them. I'm an outcast, an outside observer, someone that look at reality and humanity and asserts certain values and patterns to people, actions and events. I look at the world mostly as a pure exercise of rationality, where everyone and everything has a high predictability, where actions and decisions obey a pattern already observed. My characters (I'm a wannabe comic book artist/writer) are all a metaphor for elements of life (like, life & death, sanity & insanity, etc) of the human psyche (hope, paranoia, love, hate, distrust, misogyny, misandry, etc) and the cosmos as a whole (anti-anthropocentrism, insignificance of life before the vastness universe and so on). And not to be offensive, but this isn't a thread on philosophy (although I would gladly carry on with the discussion elsewhere), nor a thread to discuss my views on women. It's a thread with the purpose to help me get better at human figure after months of inactivity due to astonishing amounts of frustration due to my subsequent failures.

     

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    Will do.

     

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    Take it easy guys, for crying out loud... If you want to draw in a certain style, it goes without saying that you need to study that style thoroughly so in my opinion, that is absolutely a valid way to learn. Go for it and take special note of proportion while you're doing it. Of course if you don't really understand drawing basics, all the style in the world wont make your work look good. If you've studied anatomy, form, tone, color, composition, etc. then you can draw in any style you want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Cam View Post
    Take it easy guys, for crying out loud... If you want to draw in a certain style, it goes without saying that you need to study that style thoroughly so in my opinion, that is absolutely a valid way to learn. Go for it and take special note of proportion while you're doing it. Of course if you don't really understand drawing basics, all the style in the world wont make your work look good. If you've studied anatomy, form, tone, color, composition, etc. then you can draw in any style you want.
    What to you is "drawing basics"? Just anatomy and proportion or what else?

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igoos View Post
    What to you is "drawing basics"? Just anatomy and proportion or what else?
    Anatomy, human proportions, knowing how to define form and structure (making things look 3D), Graphic design, linear perspective, knowing how light falls on form, composition (which is rhythm), control of value, color theory, drapery... That's about it I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Cam View Post
    Anatomy, human proportions, knowing how to define form and structure (making things look 3D), Graphic design, linear perspective, knowing how light falls on form, composition (which is rhythm), control of value, color theory, drapery... That's about it I guess.
    I have a very solid theoretical basis on almost all of those and more or less decent practice on them. Anatomy and proportions, to me, go awry when you add dynamism to it. Different poses and viewing angles makes a mess out of my brain, trying to understand what would appear, what not and how to show it. The only thing I don't understood is what you mean by composition.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igoos View Post
    Women are just people, and like people, I don't give much of a f*** about them. I'm an outcast, an outside observer, someone that look at reality and humanity and asserts certain values and patterns to people, actions and events. I look at the world mostly as a pure exercise of rationality, where everyone and everything has a high predictability, where actions and decisions obey a pattern already observed.
    You know, that might be part of the problem... You can observe people more accurately if you're actually interested in them. And if your observations are being shoehorned into some preconceived ideas of how life works, they're probably not terribly accurate. Life is messy and full of more variety than you seem to think.

    In any case, the best way to learn about the human figure is to go out and observe real people, and draw real people. You can supplement that with books, but the information in books is incomplete without the practice of actually observing and drawing real people. Of course, if you're starting with minimal drawing skills (and I don't know if you are or not,) it might be easier to hone basic observation by drawing simple objects from life first, until you can draw them with reasonable accuracy, and then tackle more complex things like people.

    As far as books go, the Loomis books cover most of the basics pretty clearly.

    If you want to draw in a certain style, it goes without saying that you need to study that style thoroughly so in my opinion, that is absolutely a valid way to learn.
    That's an incredibly backward way to learn. If someone hasn't yet mastered the basics, trying to imitate a "style" will be a distraction at best, and at worst they'll pick up a bunch of symbols and gimmicks from the style they're trying to imitate which will actually impede them when they try to observe anything accurately. You see this all the time with kids who start out by trying to imitate anime or comics or their favorite cartoons... Before they can learn to really draw, they have to unlearn whatever "style" baggage they've picked up.

     

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    In what sort of bizarro universe is the attachment in the first post an image of a sexy woman?

    She's a badly drawn cartoon with no nose.

     

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    She also has grapes instead of toes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igoos View Post
    What I would do (and I'm already trying it out) is that I would get a image from the internet that represents what I want to show (again, like in attachment 1) and would deconstruct all the elements. The skeleton, the muscles, the body mass and so on and so forth. Do you guys it's worth a shot?
    No...really not the way to go if you want to improve. It's really pretty simple, you need to learn good solid drawing fundamentals. Then begin a more thorough study of anatomy and figure - from life. Then, when you get a pretty good handle on that you can start to explore capturing attitude and personality - studying and experimenting with stylization shortcuts and simplification that appeals to you.

    Be aware that what I just described is a few years of pretty dedicated work.

    Edit: Oh yeah, sexy women aren't an assemblage of elements...nor is anyone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igoos View Post
    What I would do (and I'm already trying it out) is that I would get a image from the internet that represents what I want to show (again, like in attachment 1) and would deconstruct all the elements. The skeleton, the muscles, the body mass and so on and so forth. Do you guys it's worth a shot?
    It's only worth a shot if you want to deconstruct everything that is wrong with anatomy in that picture from the internet.

    Doing the same exercises on photos would be good practice for studying visual anatomy. But it shouldn't replace other studies; rather, do it now and then to complement them.

     

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    While I do agree that fundamental anatomy training should be the primary concern here, this might help: http://babelab.blogspot.no/?zx=9174dbc198b05510

     

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    I came here to get information and I already got it. I didn't came here to explain my views on the world nor to listen to some bulls*** ass shrink mambo-jambo or whatever. To me, the purpose of this thread has been fulfilled and could be nuked at ease by a moderator or whoever.

     

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    I came here to get information and I already got it. I didn't came here to explain my views on the world (talking to ya neonnoodle) nor to listen to some bulls*** ass shrink mambo-jambo or whatever (talking to ya QueenGwenevere). I didn't started this to discuss philosophy. I would gladly carry on with the discussion elsewhere. If you want to, just pm me and say where. To me, the purpose of this thread has been fulfilled and could be nuked at ease by a moderator or whoever. I won't come back here anymore.
    I would like to thanks everybody that posted here, but even more so Sir Cam, Vineris, Arenhaus and iambanana (really dude? xD) for being especially helpful and for have remained focused on the question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Flake View Post
    In what sort of bizarro universe is the attachment in the first post an image of a sexy woman?

    She's a badly drawn cartoon with no nose.
    Because it's a fan art from a cartoon where the characters doesn't have noses, but that irrelevant to the point of this thread and doesn't matter anymore.


    Quote Originally Posted by tobbA View Post
    She also has grapes instead of toes...
    I realized that much on my own.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igoos View Post
    I suck hard at drawing women as a whole, even more so sexy woman.
    Unfortunately, sucking hard at drawing one thing in particular usually means sucking hard at drawing everything else.
    Once you really learn how to draw, you won’t have a problem drawing anything.

     

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    I remember David Finch mentioning he used to have trouble drawing girls, and that people usually have trouble drawing the opposite gender. I've been experiencing this, almost every woman I've drawn looks like a transvestite or some Justin Bieber kind of hybrid.

    I guess you'll have to do studies on femininity along with the basics.

    As for sexy cartoons I like Funny Cute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post
    That's an incredibly backward way to learn. If someone hasn't yet mastered the basics, trying to imitate a "style" will be a distraction at best, and at worst they'll pick up a bunch of symbols and gimmicks from the style they're trying to imitate which will actually impede them when they try to observe anything accurately. You see this all the time with kids who start out by trying to imitate anime or comics or their favorite cartoons... Before they can learn to really draw, they have to unlearn whatever "style" baggage they've picked up.
    Did you even read the rest of my post?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igoos View Post
    I came here to get information and I already got it. I didn't came here to explain my views on the world nor to listen to some bulls*** ass shrink mambo-jambo or whatever. To me, the purpose of this thread has been fulfilled and could be nuked at ease by a moderator or whoever.
    Way to thank the people who paid attention to your request and spent time to address your questions. Real classy.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by arenhaus View Post
    Way to thank the people who paid attention to your request and spent time to address your questions. Real classy.
    Oh look at me. I came back. Just because of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Igoos View Post
    I would like to thanks everybody that posted here, but even more so Sir Cam, Vineris, Arenhaus (that's you man ) and iambanana (really dude? xD) for being specially helpful and for have remained focused on the question.
    Did you read that part? I thanked everyone that came here. Everyone. I even thanked specially you and a few others that I felt were the most helpful to me. C'mon man.

     

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    Way to read three sentences, have a hissy-fit about nothing, and ignore nearly all the practical advice in this thread...

    Looks like a bad case of "I know what answers I want to hear so LALALA NOT LISTENING." Good luck with learning anything. You shan't be missed.

    Did you even read the rest of my post?
    I did, but the whole post still seemed to imply that trying to learn style as a beginner was a good way to learn... Possibly I misread that, but I wanted to advise against fixating on style while learning because it seems to be a major hindrance to a lot of people.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igoos View Post
    Did you read that part? I thanked everyone that came here. Everyone. I even thanked specially you and a few others that I felt were the most helpful to me. C'mon man.
    True, but you thanked people whose replies you liked and turned passive-aggressive on those whose replies annoyed you. Not very polite of you. In addition, the replies you called "bullshit" were questioning your working method, which is a valid concern but one which you took rather personally.

    This place can be a great source of advice and knowledge, but people here can be quite impatient with newbies who come for technical tricks but bristle at suggestions to change the method. As you have now found out.

    Art, even in its "craft" part, does not consist only of tools or tricks. It is a discipline, not a technology, and that means honing your own self as much as your technical skill. So be prepared to practice more than making marks and memorizing muscles - and if people tell you your observation method or approach to the subject seem fishy to them, you ought to check whether they might be on to something, instead of calling them names. Especially when these people have already been where you are now.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igoos View Post
    I came here to get information and I already got it. I won't come back here anymore.
    Mind your backside on your way out. Have a break to learn some manners.


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    Eh, no loss...another non-starter.

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    Geez guys, save some for me next time.

    What a colossal shithead. I hate crybabies.

     

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