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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorinji_Knight View Post
    This is an acceptable number to you for such a small subset of people? I'd call that more than common... thank you for illustrating my point.
    .
    The only point this illustrates is you cant do maths. In the UK there are on average 17 deaths per year where ecstacy use is implicated out of as user base of 500,000. thats 1 in 30,000. Youre calling a 1 in 30,000 shot common?
    There are 40,000 deaths from alcohol abuse per year from a user base of 40,000,000. 500,000 is 1/80th of 40m, so multiply 17 by 80 to get the projected number of deaths if e was as widely used as booze, = 1360. Vs 40,000 for booze.
    You can put your head in the sand if you like but those are the numbers, and thats why E is so low on the graph of harm, whereas alcohol is at the top.

    I dont consider any deaths acceptable, but the reason for them was poor information on how to take them, which lead to people drinking too much water or overheating. As I already said, there have been zero recorded deaths from poisoning or overdoses. I couldnt find any violence figures but i strongly doubt people take pills and beat up their wives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shorinji_Knight View Post
    Also I know from personal experience several guys who've used recreational drugs a lot when they young and later attribute it as the reason for their permanent diminished capacity.
    They took too much too much.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; December 3rd, 2012 at 12:50 PM.
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  2. #122
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    It's not the math, it is your failure to follow the scientific method. You keep posting stats without citation. I would question the frequency of use, the population sampling methods used, and the controls used in such a study. We'll talk math after the stats are backed up with reputable citation.

    Sure booze is a killer, no argument here. No I don't drink. Both of my grandfathers were raging alcoholics and one died from it. So I agree that booze is high on the list of harmful substances.

    As far as taking too much goes. These are reality altering drugs. How are you going to know when you've reached the too much stage. I mean so many other people can't tell when they've reached that line... why are you different?

     

  3. #123
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    The only way I can advocate psychedelics is to take them very infrequently. I know people who have taken them once a week or more often and developed problems from that rather quickly. I have taken them often in certain situations but looking back now, it was dangerous and I didn't allow myself the amount of time necessary to integrate those experiences into my life. Once a month is the most frequent someone should use psychedelics, but a more responsible timeline would be 3 or 4 times... or once... a year. There is certainly a problem with people using too much. As for the development of mental illness, it has been found that the same percentage of drug users develop schizophrenia as the rest of society, so there isn't conclusive evidence that psychedelics were the cause of that. I've been basically obsessed with Syd Barrett for years now and so I've read a lot about his becoming an "acid casualty." Syd was pre-schizophrenic and didn't stop taking psychedelics despite this. People who knew him say that they believe he would have gone mad with or without the drugs.

    But I do know people who are marginally mentally-ill due to too much psychedelic use. Definitely.

    Last edited by OldJake666; December 3rd, 2012 at 03:45 PM.
     

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  5. #124
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    I guess if were counting pharmaceuticals I can't claim sobriety anymore due to the fact I have nerve damage from getting shot that causes me constant pain in both my legs so I take carbamazepine which is a non narcotic neuropathic pain killer (typically anti seizure) so now I'm afraid mr Ferreira and that other guy will now have to think I'm less cool as I have to admit to doing drugs..

     

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  7. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorinji_Knight View Post
    It's not the math, it is your failure to follow the scientific method. You keep posting stats without citation. I would question the frequency of use, the population sampling methods used, and the controls used in such a study. We'll talk math after the stats are backed up with reputable citation.
    Well you didnt think a graph compiled by the Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs and reprinted in the Lancet was good enough, so i guess you can keep trying to dismiss the evidence on that basis ad infinitum. The mean figure of 17 deaths per year where ecstacy was solely implicated is from the Government Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs. It wasnt a study, those were the numbers of people who keeled over after drinking 14 litres of water at raves. Cos they werent ever told doing that on E is a bad idea.
    If you have access to better information, rather than some story about some random guy you know who once said something vague, please feel free to provide it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shorinji_Knight View Post
    I mean so many other people can't tell when they've reached that line..
    More ignorance. You can keep taking MDMA, but it wont do anything. Thats a good way to know youve had enough. The other way to know is its 6am and you want to go home. Duh.
    This makes my point that drug education is bad, as you didnt even know this.
    Acid and K are intense, once a year is enough for me, here: http://2012.photos.secretgardenparty...ts+2012&page=1

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthonycarey View Post
    I'm afraid mr Ferreira and that other guy will now have to think I'm less cool
    its a terrible cross to bear T, but we'll make it

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob Kobryn View Post
    I've been basically obsessed with Syd Barrett for years now
    I live a couple of streets over from Syds house, its rather nice I wish it was mine. very peaceful street too.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; December 3rd, 2012 at 02:59 PM.
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  9. #126
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    I'm a drinker mostly - that's my big vice.
    I've recently smoked a little weed (after 33 years of not) because my wife takes it medicinally for her back and she didn't want to be alone in it (and btw, it's the only thing out of all of the prescription drugs they pumped into her over the course of 5 years that has actually WORKED *and* hasn't had any side effects)
    I've never done any psychedelics
    I've never done any of the so called "club drugs" like E.
    I've CERTAINLY never done any of the hard, super addictive drugs like crack, heroin, or meth.
    I've never even smoked a cigarette or had any form of nicotine.

    And let me just say that the people that are preachin sobriety in this thread are FAR more irritating to read than those expressing their experiences with drugs.
    I don't know why some of you have so much aggression about it. Someone you know turned out to be a loser, I guess? Fine. I get that.

    But no one likes a preacher. If you are "high on sobriety" good for you!!! You'll win over more people talking about your fun experiences with being sober than trying to say why anyone who enjoys a vice here and there is a junkie piece of shit. EVERYONE has vices. EVERYONE. Just because you are sober from intoxicants doesn't mean you are free from it. It might be porn or video games or food...but you have something. So don't look down on people that have their "thing", whatever it is.

    My 2 cents.

     

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  11. #127
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    Thank you Dusty. While I wouldn't ever tell someone that they should do drugs, except in situations such as that of your wife (or mdma for therapy if it ever was permitted) I think education and open mindedness is very important.

    Some people take drugs because they think it will make them feel less bad, and it's hard to reason with someone in a situation like that, but people who take drugs for fun should be educated on wtf they are doing to themselves and do it properly.

    If the only thing we ever hear is "OMG drugs are bad and people who do drugs are pathetic", we never address the people who will do drugs anyways and these people will not get important information. It's a bit like abstinence-only sex education, it doesn't work, so I'm very opposed to that kind of preaching.

     

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  13. #128
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    What Qitsune says. Education and open mindedness are very important. The Netherlands has a quite open policy towards soft drugs (and is quite tolerant on hard drugs as well) and we (as a child already) have been educated in our schools on how to use those drugs, what it does to us and the dangers involved. We have far less drug crimes compared to other countries and far less people using drugs or people using it wrongly. Most problems we have concerning drugs are from foreigners who come to Amsterdam (or any other city) and don't have a clue on how to be responsible with it. Those are the shitheads that end up in hospitals. This goes for almost every drug, except for the really addictive ones like heroine. Besides that we also have a problem with alcohol usage. Main reason for that is social pressure.

     

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  15. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    The only point this illustrates is you cant do maths. In the UK there are on average 17 deaths per year where ecstacy use is implicated out of as user base of 500,000. thats 1 in 30,000. Youre calling a 1 in 30,000 shot common?
    There are 40,000 deaths from alcohol abuse per year from a user base of 40,000,000. 500,000 is 1/80th of 40m, so multiply 17 by 80 to get the projected number of deaths if e was as widely used as booze, = 1360. Vs 40,000 for booze.
    You can put your head in the sand if you like but those are the numbers, and thats why E is so low on the graph of harm, whereas alcohol is at the top.

    I dont consider any deaths acceptable, but the reason for them was poor information on how to take them, which lead to people drinking too much water or overheating. As I already said, there have been zero recorded deaths from poisoning or overdoses. I couldnt find any violence figures but i strongly doubt people take pills and beat up their wives.
    VK, does bad mixing of E equate into your statistics for death?
    I've heard that though the pure form, mally (did I spell that right), has no real negative side effects, (except for possible depression due to brain chemical over release, which passes in time), I've understood that E pills are almost like playing russian roulette. The mixtures dealer make/sell can be very variable, and sometimes there may be enough of another component to cause real damage.
    Couldn't someone OD from a bad set of pills? I forget all of the drugs that are mixed into some E pills, but I think heroine is in some mixtures. If that's the case, If there is a larger dosage of heroine than there should be, couldn't you OD on that?

    that's why I stay away from anything chemical- too many variables to risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthonycarey View Post
    I guess if were counting pharmaceuticals I can't claim sobriety anymore due to the fact I have nerve damage from getting shot that causes me constant pain in both my legs so I take carbamazepine which is a non narcotic neuropathic pain killer (typically anti seizure) so now I'm afraid mr Ferreira and that other guy will now have to think I'm less cool as I have to admit to doing drugs..
    Thats kind of what I was getting at. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be taking your pain killer, but it is "drug usage" in many ways. My argument, is who am I to say that many other drug users aren't also suffering in some way? most people who eventually become addicted to a drug don't want to be addicted. Normally it's either to numb themselves, or feel better in some way. That's why without the drug, they need so much therapy. they have a problem of some kind. So is it really a doctors note that makes one drug better than another?
    Is it the side effects? Because I know that many pharmaceuticals have some really dastardly side effects; like IDK death.
    and though Anthonycarey, the pharmaceutical you describe as being non-narcotic, isn't it very likely that you can get addicted to the feeling of not being in excruciating pain?

    If it's any consolation, I still think you're cool.

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  16. #130
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  17. #131
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    Oh no, I made some people on the internet mad at me, by stating that I disagree with telling people to do drugs. Who were the preachy ones here?

     

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  19. #132
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    Since we're on the subject of what constitutes being open minded:



    I'm pretty sure open minded doesn't mean accepting the behavior of others without critical consideration. Especially when that behavior can be causally linked to severe consequences that effect us as a society. It's hilarious how it's considered open minded and educated to accept this behavior. The point flies so far over some of your heads that you can't grasp incredibly simple ideas.

    Okay, it's a vice. Okay everyone has a vice. So all vices are equal? How does that work?

    Nobody likes a preacher because nobody likes to be held accountable. They want to be told what they are doing is right and that they can continue without consequence.

    but people who take drugs for fun should be educated on wtf they are doing to themselves and do it properly.
    Yeah we need the public to pay for educational courses on how to take Ecstasy and Heroin properly. Because proper use (whatever that means) is different from the way it's normally used. Which is to get high.

    If the only thing we ever hear is "OMG drugs are bad and people who do drugs are pathetic", we never address the people who will do drugs anyways and these people will not get important information. It's a bit like abstinence-only sex education, it doesn't work, so I'm very opposed to that kind of preaching.
    And what piece of important information will you give to help those people? Give 'em a clean needle and government manufactured FDA approved smack and give them a well-lit public area to do it in? How will that benefit them? I hate to be so intolerant and imply doing drugs is bad. What is your plan to help the Substancely-challenged beyond decriminalization? Have you ever considered the actual logistics of it in the US? Or are you going to talk about another country?

    Let's see if you can reply without googling my name to find that one porn account I had a few years ago.

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  21. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorinji_Knight View Post
    Oh no, I made some people on the internet mad at me, by stating that I disagree with telling people to do drugs. Who were the preachy ones here?
    If you think I am "mad", you are mad.
    Also, don't post ever again, please.

    Your post count is 666.

     

  22. #134
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    This is like the "cheer me up" threads evil opposite twin it might as well be called the "hey let's fight with everyone and see how many people we can frustrate" thread. While I don't take any of it to heart and view this thread as a way to kill time because it's probably the most active thread on the website right now I do see a lot of people getting emotional and forging rivalries and alliances based on their views..

    I just wanted to take a step back and say I dont hate, dislike or even look down on anyone who may have a different opinion than what I believe, but I do disagree with the tone and vicious way some people make their case.

     

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  24. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthonycarey View Post
    This is like the "cheer me up" threads evil opposite twin it might as well be called the "hey let's fight with everyone and see how many people we can frustrate" thread. While I don't take any of it to heart and view this thread as a way to kill time because it's probably the most active thread on the website right now I do see a lot of people getting emotional and forging rivalries and alliances based on their views..

    I just wanted to take a step back and say I dont hate, dislike or even look down on anyone who may have a different opinion than what I believe, but I do disagree with the tone and vicious way some people make their case.
    You are still pretty new here. This is completely normal. Very few people here actually hold grudges. These forums are not like most found on the net.
    Don't let the thread get to you, its just the usual lounge throwdown.

    We work hard and we play hard.

     

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  26. #136
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    You say that your point flies over people's head. You don't consider that maybe you didn't get the point yourself, and since your ability to Google seems nil, here are a few resources.
    http://www.dancesafe.org/
    DanceSafe is a nonprofit, harm reduction organization promoting health and safety within the rave and nightclub community. We currently have local chapters throughout the US and Canada. Our local chapters consist of young people from within the dance culture itself who have a sincere interest in bettering their communities and educating themselves and their peers. We train our volunteers to be health educators and drug abuse prevention counselors within their own communities, utilizing the principles and methods of harm reduction and popular education.

    Our volunteers staff harm reduction booths at raves, nightclubs and other dance events where they provide information on drugs, safer sex, and other health and safety issues concerning the electronic dance community (like driving home safely and protecting one's hearing).
    http://www.erowid.org/

    Erowid is a member-supported organization providing access to reliable, non-judgmental information about psychoactive plants, chemicals, and related issues. We work with academic, medical, and experiential experts to develop and publish new resources, as well as to improve and increase access to already existing resources. We also strive to ensure that these resources are maintained and preserved as a historical record for the future.
    http://www.bluelight.ru
    Bluelight is a forum about drug use funded by it's members. It seeks to educate and to promote common sense about drug use.
    BTW, Bluelight hosts a number of academics and their tread titles tend to sound like "
    racemic and/or dextromethylphenidate effect on 5-ht1a receptor" but they also have a section called "the dark side" that serves as a warning to users. I find that having a basic knowledge of some of the most common substances prevent me from spewing nonsense about things I don't know in public, I also know what to expect when I come on contact with someone who has consumed and I know what to do when something unexpected happens.

    Last edited by Qitsune; December 3rd, 2012 at 06:50 PM.
     

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  28. #137
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    So it was. No I don't really think any of us are mad, more like perplex at the unbridged (maybe unbridgeable) gulf between our relative positions. We each feel that we are speaking to the best interest of society. I avoided this thread for a long time because I figured this would be a lost cause. These types of conversations always are when the principles are so diametrically opposed. However, when I finally saw someone post something I felt made sense, I didn't want them to be drowned out completely just because it was unpopular.

     

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  30. #138
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    Yeah, interesting thread, and it all started with a 3 line spam advert

    I would love to get into a debate about this but I'm too stoned to be bothered (just kidding) but let me just say that I've had bad and good experiences with both drugs and alcohol and I feel that both of them enhanced my life and made it a hell of a lot more interesting. However being over 33 means my body doesn't like as many stimulants as it once did and now I even have to limit my caffeine intake in case I get too jittery *sigh*..I'm so rock n roll...


    But anyway, I'll just leave this delightful little positive tale here...



     

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  32. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthonycarey View Post
    This is like the "cheer me up" threads evil opposite twin it might as well be called the "hey let's fight with everyone and see how many people we can frustrate" thread. While I don't take any of it to heart and view this thread as a way to kill time because it's probably the most active thread on the website right now I do see a lot of people getting emotional and forging rivalries and alliances based on their views..

    I just wanted to take a step back and say I dont hate, dislike or even look down on anyone who may have a different opinion than what I believe, but I do disagree with the tone and vicious way some people make their case.
    No this is accually pretty normal. Some threads we agree others we don't. It just depends on the subject. Take Velocity Kendall for instance, there have been a number of times I've agreed with his stance. On this issue though, I don't. Dusty, has written a number of interesting posts over the years, and so has Qitsune. Don't mistake disagreement with forging rivalries.

     

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  34. #140
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    What happens in the Lounge stays in the lounge. It rarely carries over to the good parts of the site.

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  36. #141
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    I can't speak for Buck or Kev. But, I'm generally on their side in these discussions.

    It gives me a certain feeling of satisfaction that the pro-drug CA side eschews the work of Leary-- good.

    I'm perfectly good with the idea of "chemical recreation," and, indeed, do so with various forms of vodka and gin drinks. (But, in my little world, the next job (perhaps) involves a Security Clearance and a rigorous background check by the (Oddly Teutonic Sounding) "Homeland Security" folks.) Thus, pissing around with various Hippy drugs ain't such a good idea. . .

    If VK and Jake would come around to my way of thinking-- (drug of choice) as a way of blowing off steam and recreating, I'd be more accepting of their positions as opposed to mind-expanding-creative-utter-goodness-foo-foo-1960s-twaddle!

    [And, I still think that "sobriety," which I don't practice, is a damn fine thing.]

     

  37. #142
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    I do make the distinction between things I do for recreation and things I do with more "serious" intent. For example, there are times when I draw for the sheer joy of doodling and I don't really care about what I'm drawing as long as I'm enjoying it. Other times I develop serious concepts that I labor over for many weeks in an attempt to most dynamically communicate its message. The action is essentially the same and yet the intention is different.

    In the same way, the way in which I use substances can be divided into recreational or "something more" (psychological, spiritual, creative, experimental, etc.) by the intention and context in which they are used. I smoke cannabis in a recreational context. Sometimes it's just to take the edge off, sometimes it's with friends and we laugh and play, sometimes it's at concerts, etc but I've never considered it something spiritual or something that is profoundly insightful. I just enjoy it and I don't have much pretension about it. I'd also call my use of MDMA and other empathogens recreational because I used to take them only to make dancing at raves more enjoyable. The thing about psychedelics, however, is that I've never ever used them in a recreational context. I take psychedelics most often alone, either lying in darkness, or in meditation, or in a nature setting. I will listen to music but not electronic or other drug-scene music. I use them with classical, Indian, or ambient music. And the attitude in mind is usually one of exploration, of going into the unknown, usually of slight fear but resting in the open space of unknowningness and in a faith that the experience will be positive and worthwhile. When used in such a context, you can begin to explore the psyche in a way that is certainly something "deeper" and more profound than what you might experience in a recreational context. Fun is usually not something that comes to mind when I think of the psychedelics. I have had many experiences that have really forced me to focus my awareness to be able to navigate them safely. Those experiences were not what I would call fun and although slightly difficult, they were certainly profound and rewarding.

    Maybe I'm just geek and I don't know how to have fun, but I've never taken a psychedelic at a rave, party, or concert. (Other than at Burning Man, the experience of which is somewhere between fun, spiritual - I spent a lot of time in the temple - and most profoundly connective.) I'm not saying that they can't be used for recreational means, and I'm not saying that I wouldn't be willing to use them as such, but I have never used them in that way. Truly the entire spirit of the thing, the whole intent and context that it holds within my life, is far from recreational. I'm not saying this to be "deep" or pretentious, I'm just being honest and trying to give you the most accurate depiction of how the psychedelics operate within my life. I don't think it's a grave delusion to think that they can be used as a tool for introspection. The name alone, "mind-manifesting," portrays this school of chemicals as something which animates the contents of your psyche. I have spoken with many different PHD psychologists about this, and I have attended several lecture series at various colleges and conferences in which psychologists have discussed their potential for use in this way.

    And I'm certainly not alone about this. There are many people, probably people you know but are too shy to be open about it, who have used psychedelics in this way. I belong to a few different organizations in the Bay Area that aim to educate people on proper use of these substances to promote beneficial experiences and respectful and healthy ways of using them.

    About alcohol, I don't scorn anyone who uses it, but I don't like it. I think it's a shame that I don't like it because so many people seem to love it so much. I just don't like the way it makes me feel. It makes me feel drowsy and slightly anxious and it dulls my awareness too greatly. I'll probably try it again some day, but more recently when offered to me, I've been telling people "I don't drink." I really like Kava Kava, though, which is another legal intoxicant that is somewhat similar to alcohol but has a warmer and more open energy to it (like MDMA only more mild.) It's also rather clear headed. I still prefer cannabis, but Kava is really very nice and the fact that it's legal is attractive. It tastes freaking awful, though.

    Last edited by OldJake666; December 4th, 2012 at 02:41 AM.
     

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  39. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    Yeah we need the public to pay for educational courses on how to take Ecstasy and Heroin properly.
    And AGAIN youre deliberately conflating taking MDMA with getting hooked on Heroin. Its such an obvious ploy too. Would you be convinced if someone said eating carrots AND arsenic were the same, lethally toxic thing? Its a shame that the only sensible thing you said was meant in a tone dripping with sarcasm, as if to suggest educating people was such a laughably preposterous concept you can barely even comprehend why people would suggest it.
    One of the reasons some people progress from soft to hard drugs is because morons speak about them as if they are the same thing, which they are not any more than carrots are the same as arsenic.

    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    And what piece of important information will you give to help those people? Give 'em a clean needle and government manufactured FDA approved smack and give them a well-lit public area to do it in? How will that benefit them? I hate to be so intolerant and imply doing drugs is bad. What is your plan to help the Substancely-challenged beyond decriminalization? Have you ever considered the actual logistics of it in the US? Or are you going to talk about another country?
    Well as deaths from ecstacy have been exclusively due to water poisoning, overheating or heart failure in people with heart problems, ie mistakes due to lack of information, I would advise not drinking too much water, taking time to rest and cool off, and not taking it if you have heart problems.

    This information is already available if you look for it, and is presumably a contributing factor to the fact that of 500,000 users, only 27 per year come a cropper. To put that number in perspective, 30,000 people die from obesity in the same place in the same period. information about both these issues could be impressed on people early and in detail and might help mitigate them.

    If you think this is pointless or wrong, do you also disagree with people being given a consistent detailed message on how and why to practice safe sex too?

    As for devil heroin, unfortunately for your position of scoffing incredulity, as Qitsune pointed out, countries where well-designed heroine harm reduction regimes are in place, such as Switzerland, show considerable success in their rehabilitation and are consequently popular with the public. The US is a hard one because its politics is so corrupt and riven with partisan bickering, uninterested in rational thought.
    However the most important information about heroin is that there is no safe way to take it and that it will at a minimum cause massive damage to your life.

    Moving forward, a world with soft drugs decriminilaised might allow research into improving them.

    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    It rarely carries over to the good parts of the site.
    but, again as Qitsune pointed out, neither do you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    If VK and Jake would come around to my way of thinking-- (drug of choice) as a way of blowing off steam and recreating, I'd be more accepting of their positions as opposed to mind-expanding-creative-utter-goodness-foo-foo-1960s-twaddle!
    Weed and wine and guinness and mdma are for blowing off steam.

    Acid is for chatting cliched bullshit about how everythings connected. Dont let that put you off tho, when youre dazzled by the truly strange, profoundly real, often terrifying things acid forces you to confront in yourself and everything around you, cliched hippyish slack jawed exclaimations of astonishment are all anyone can be expected to manage. I dont care who you are, youll describe skyscrapers as tall, sex as nice and the world on acid as all, like, totally connected man. Because language fails, usually in the same ways. And also because its true.

    And K... all I can say about that is if you remember that show Muppet Babies, where they make a pirate ship out of cardboard boxes and the sofa, and then by the power of imagination it starts to rock in the ocean swell and wind fills the sheets and Kermit becomes Black Beard... its pretty much exactly like that if you bash a load of K. A shared lucid dream with your best mates and Classic FM pumping and whatever you can imagine becomes real. I dunno if its mind expanding, but holy shit is it fun.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; December 5th, 2012 at 03:09 AM.
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  40. #144
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    There's nothing left to say here.

    This is really an argument about character. Character is what you do when nobody is there to judge you. Character will bring about destiny or fate. All the bar and pie graphs, all the appeals to this authority or that, all the rationales or ideologies, all the finger-pointing, finger wagging, thumb sucking, and hand jive... its all just chatter. It isn't real.

    The years will roll by and only in due course will you find out whether you did right by yourself, whether you had your cake and got to eat it too, or whether you lied to yourself and missed out on unique and real opportunities by escaping into chemical stimulation.

    This experiment will run once. Good luck.

    At least Icarus tried!


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  42. #145
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    That all sounds sort of meaningful but lets decode it: if you actually think about what Kev said its either
    self evident, to ensure you nod your head (Time passes. Events have consequences. You only get one life)
    false dichotomies loaded with fear mongering to make you afraid to disagree (Doing right by yourself is mutually exclusive from enjoying the odd soft drug experience, drug experiences will automatically mean you miss out on unique opportunities, anyone who disagrees with Kev is lying to themselves) or
    actual nonsense (Statistics are no more reliable than "chatter".)
    These thought-denying tricks have been around since there have been preachy old men with a chip on their shoulder who like the sound of their own voice. Beware yo!



    If we're moving away from specific facts and details into dubiously relevant platitudes about life in general, heres one I like:

    "Any road followed precisely to its end leads precisely nowhere. Climb the mountain just a little bit to test that it's a mountain. From the top of the mountain, you cannot see the mountain."
    from Muad'Dib: Family Commentaries by the Princess Irulan

    Which I interpret to mean inflexibility leads to a loss of perspective: so keep an open mind, try new things, find the best information you can, enjoy today, and think for yourself.
    I do, and look at me!... oh wait...
    hehe good luck humans!

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    I tried drugs because of their coolness. Forbitten fruit is always the sweetest. I did it also with the legal drugs: alcohol and tobacco.I dont know any of my friends who liked drugs at first time. Lets be honest, nobody likes their first beer or first smoke.I wish we could legalize everything, thus removing the coolness. But i doubt it will work, media keeps hyping alcohol and smokes.
    Funny story with cigarettes. Before marlboro-man commercials, cigarettes were considered suitable for women, not men. I'ts only after tobacco industry started using product placement in hollywood films and those famous marlboro-man commercials, cigarettes became what they are now: sign of ruggedness. You see hyping of alcohol everywhere on TV. Life gets tough... manly hero takes a sip of whisky of a beer.
    I'm afraid, that if we legalize drugs, industry will hype them also: intead of cosmopolitians in Sex and the City, you'll have cocaine. It's fabolous!

    Everybody likes a winner. Nobody talks about the would-been rockstar whos wasting away in a tiny apartment. Nobody talks about their uncle who died of cancer. Nobody tells you of those minus 10-20 years from your lifetime that you get with smoking. I'ts not cool.
    I can't tell about illegal drugs, since i was never hooked. But i can tell about alcohol and tobacco: life is better without. It's okay to have a drink with friend ( and i think its okay to use any other drug in moderation). But it's easier to pick up chicks while sober. It's better being fit versus having lungs full of coal. Drinking and smoking are just not worth it in excess. Plus you'll get small victory versus The Man. Every state on the planet taxes alcohol and tobacco.

    So risking unpopularity im in camp No-Drugs. I want my PM-s now.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArviK View Post
    ...
    I can't tell about illegal drugs, since i was never hooked. But i can tell about alcohol and tobacco: life is better without. It's okay to have a drink with friend ( and i think its okay to use any other drug in moderation). But it's easier to pick up chicks while sober. It's better being fit versus having lungs full of coal. Drinking and smoking are just not worth it in excess. Plus you'll get small victory versus The Man. Every state on the planet taxes alcohol and tobacco.

    So risking unpopularity im in camp No-Drugs. I want my PM-s now.
    I also think that moderation is key, so education is important, it's easier to be moderate when using, say, mushrooms than heroin, and knowing about dosage and possible risks of a substance before hand. And I think that many substances should be made legal and highly taxed. Not only that would help finance programs for the people who do get addicted (because it's going to happen whether it's legal or not, in places where no other substances are available, some people sniff glue or gas) but it would remove a source of revenue for organized crime and put some quality insurance in place.

     

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  47. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendoll
    I can only think of clever quips two days later edited by Velocity Kendoll, reason: get it? Ken doll lel
    It's locking time.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post

    Lucid, rational science? It certainly can't be found in pro-drug literature. Inducing delusions is good science? Fighting the man is good science? Putting things in our bodies to change the way we think so that we reach a higher level of understanding?
    Right. These sentences are pretty ironic.
    I can only hope you're being disingenuous to play the devil's advocate, BuckWeisel. It sounds like you're no more interested in actual science than the people whose arguments you're shaping into strawmen.


    This kinda stuff is interesting. It's not wildly supportive; rather, the papers look at possible beneficial applications of psychedelics in a rational and scientific manner, while identifying problems associated with their use. So it probably still falls into your 'pro-drug, fighting the man, inducing delusions is good' category?

    http://jop.sagepub.com/content/early...39253.abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22129843

    http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/arti...ticleid=210962

    Last edited by Oden; December 5th, 2012 at 10:43 PM.
     

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  50. #150
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    I dunno, i though it was interesting reading a bit of both sides, i have my view but i don´t regret reading the points which Qitsune, Vk, Jake, etc put some time elaborate, the feud scalating is mess up.

    See you around dudes.

     

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