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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    Theres so much anger in what you and Kev write. Why is that?
    Because you're reading anger from 8-bit text? Did I curse? My tone is serious and sometimes a little curt, but not overtly belligerent.

    You spit your words out, you posts are full of viciousness, rhetorical questions, it always sounds so shrill. Far too many explamation points, and instances of the exact misfiring sarcasm you say you dislike (for example at the end of your post Sketch.)
    Rhetorical questions are valid devices used in public discourse. They're not a sign of emotional instability. I didn't say I dislike sarcasm. I said the sarcasm was poorly-thought out.

    OK, you dont like heroin and methamphetamine. Neither do I. Their ability to do harm is self evident. Im not advocating their use in any circumstances. Grouping those chemicals with things like mushrooms under the umbrella of DRUGS is absurd, soething we;ve already looked at in some depth.
    You don't have enough data on shrooms to properly judge whether or not they should not be grouped with those other drugs. 'Shrooms aren't that accessible or widely used. Alcohol is. Put people behind the wheel while on shrooms for decades and let me know how what happens. Put them in every grocery store, gas station, and liquor store. I'm pretty confident that no matter what you do, the drugs that hardly anyone does will be at the bottom of the list and the ones that everyone does will be at the top. And no, that's not me saying that every position on that chart is as tightly correlated to popularity.

    You dont like hallucinogens. Again, OK, dont take em. Personally I think youre missing out, but its your choice. On the other hand, maybe your preconceptions and stories arent enough. in which case, why not try some and find out.
    Look, this isn't the first time we've had this conversation. It pops up regularly. This isn't the first time either of us have posted. If I "don't like" drugs then go read my posts in the previous threads. My tone is the way it is because of the selective language that you people are using. "You don't like heroin..." "You don't like hallucinogens." In case you don't realize it, you're reducing my arguments to personal bias. That I'm arguing against you because of a petty personal preference as opposed to a real argument of value and fact. Maybe it's an unconscious assumption.

    LSD increases dopamine production and uptake in the brain. Brain activity under the influence of LSD closely resembles Schizophrenia. Forgive me if I don't take something that produces a schizoid event. Forgive me if I trust science over some guy on the internet who did LSD once so he truly knows what it's like. Being under the influence of drugs is being as biased as possible. How can you make an informed decisions about anything in such a condition? This mysticism surrounding drug use is problematic. So no, it's not that I don't like it. It's the chemical and biological consequences of ingesting it.

    Im fascinated why in a subset of people, things like LSD cause them to flip out so fervently. As the guy Ferrera hates so much, Terrence McKenna once said
    I hate Terrence as much as one person can hate someone without meeting them. Leary too. They're pseudoscientists who created a religion around drug use. They're the homeopathic doctors of drugs. They're the creationists of pharmapsychology. They're the flat-earthers of enlightenment. They're the UFO experts of knowledge. They're the time-cube proponents of ontology.

    Have some Hunter S Thompson:
    That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously... All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.


    Last edited by s.ketch; December 2nd, 2012 at 01:02 AM.
    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
     

  2. #92
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    I dont like Leary much either. I read a lot of Tom Wolfe when I was younger and he was not that kind about him.

    "LSD increases dopamine production and uptake in the brain. Brain activity under the influence of LSD closely resembles Schizophrenia. Forgive me if I don't take something that produces a schizoid event. Forgive me if I trust science over some guy on the internet who did LSD once so he truly knows what it's like."

    I forgive you. I wouldnt advise any noobs to take a shitload of LSD in any case, it can cut you to the core, its scary stuff. What about E though? that doesnt seem to really do any harm at all unless you take loads for years.. You should try it with your wife, its really nice. Ha only joking, youre not into it. Thats fine. Im not trying to convince you. i was laying out the experiences Ive had for people who are interested in trying them.

    "" That I'm arguing against you because of a petty personal preference as opposed to a real argument of value and fact. Maybe it's an unconscious assumption. "

    Im not argueing against you at all dude. Makes zero difference to me. But let me put it this way, if you met someone whod never looked look at the stars, and said quite rightly that they give off dangerous cosmic rays, and theyre basicaly white dots on a black background, wouldnt you suggest they see them for themselves, at little real cost?
    None of which constitutes a scientific arguement, Im just walking you through my mental process.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; December 2nd, 2012 at 01:28 AM.
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  3. #93
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    That's really a false analogy. I have done drugs in the past. There is nothing to be gained. It's a waste of time and money and is often harmful. Young artists staring out must understand that doing drugs does not make you cool, or enhance creativity. That surpasses any political or personal reason to argue for drug use. A bunch of you saying "I don't recommend doing drugs but it was awesome when I did it." doesn't really help. It reminds me of Tim Meadow's character in these scenes:



    You know what's cool? Someone working their fingers to the bone trying to master their craft. Someone posting their progress and creating great art. You know who I want to hang out with? That guy. The guy/gal who is so enthusiastic about his art that he has trouble talking about anything else. The guy/gal who constantly learns and moves forward. The guy who goes to college to work, not wasting two to four years trying to figure out what to do with his life on someone else's dime. That's who I want to be friends with. I want to party with him/her. And by party I mean impromptu drawing sessions. The guys trying to look cool and expand their minds are in the bathroom doing another line or at the club dancing and rubbing people because he's on E. The ones I don't want to waste my time on are those who spend hours laying in their bedroom floors while listening to shitty music because they can't move without everything turning to geometric shapes and colors. And I don't want to be friends with someone who can't make morning classes because they're hungover every Monday and Friday morning. The latter people are parasites and negative influences. If you want to be edgy and cool, cut your hair wear a pocket protector. Dare to study while everyone else is getting blasted.

    And as for comparing doing drugs to scientific exploration? No wonder people like Kev have a problem with you.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
     

  4. #94
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    To attach video use [yt]content[//yt] tags without the second dash.

    "And as for comparing doing drugs to scientific exploration? No wonder people like Kev have a problem with you."

    huh? when did i do that? drugs like LSD and E will make you see and feel things youd never otherwise experience. Some people like that kind of thing, some dont. I dont mind either way.

    "You know what's cool? Someone working their fingers to the bone trying to master their craft. Someone posting their progress and creating great art. You know who I want to hang out with? That guy. The guy/gal who is so enthusiastic about his art that he has trouble talking about anything else. The guy/gal who constantly learns and moves forward. The guy who goes to college to work, not wasting two to four years trying to figure out what to do with his life on someone else's dime."

    in that case, join TAD, my crew and the other faculty arent fake-ass message-board dilettantes or preachy washed-up comic book writers or pie-eyed wastrels, theyre some of the hardest working, hardest thinking artists and designers Ive ever met. Youd like them. And no we dont talk about our personal views on drugs. We eat sleep and live art and design, we work hard, and we learn fast and constantly. Its something I feel far more passionately about that whether or not you do dabble in hallucinogens, and something i would definitely try to convince you to do. If youre as serious about this as you sound, then think about it, it might be what youre looking for.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; December 2nd, 2012 at 08:11 AM.
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    You know what's cool? Someone working their fingers to the bone trying to master their craft. Someone posting their progress and creating great art. You know who I want to hang out with? That guy. The guy/gal who is so enthusiastic about his art that he has trouble talking about anything else. The guy/gal who constantly learns and moves forward. The guy who goes to college to work, not wasting two to four years trying to figure out what to do with his life on someone else's dime. That's who I want to be friends with. I want to party with him/her. And by party I mean impromptu drawing sessions. The guys trying to look cool and expand their minds are in the bathroom doing another line or at the club dancing and rubbing people because he's on E. The ones I don't want to waste my time on are those who spend hours laying in their bedroom floors while listening to shitty music because they can't move without everything turning to geometric shapes and colors. And I don't want to be friends with someone who can't make morning classes because they're hungover every Monday and Friday morning. The latter people are parasites and negative influences. If you want to be edgy and cool, cut your hair wear a pocket protector. Dare to study while everyone else is getting blasted.
    The thing is, I am this guy. Anyone who knows me will tell you so.

    I am this guy and I happen to find a great amount of inspiration, which has improved my craft, through the psychedelics. And my productivity in art has actually greatly increased since using psychedelics, not the other way around. There's also nothing wrong with dancing, which you scorned in the latter part of this paragraph, which is something I greatly enjoy as well. Why put down dancing? And for the record I have never been hungover in my life. I've never been drunk either. And the psychedelics have never once led to me missing an assignment (which I've rarely received less than a B on) or to miss a deadline for a commission (of which I've completed many for many years now.) I'm passionate about psychedelics, but I'm much more greatly passionate about art. And if someone said to me in a theoretical situation "Ok, you have to decide, you can either take psychedelics for the rest of your life but never create another piece of artwork, or you can go on making art but never again take psychedelics" the choice would be extremely easy. Bye bye LSD, hello Charles Bargue. I've been in the top three students of every class I've taken at my entire 3 and half years at art school and I work harder than nearly every other students in those classes. I am proud of this.

    The thing is you're still running on assumptions that, although they have some instances of actually occurring, are not necessarily true. Using drugs =/= being a degenerate who doesn't contribute to society. People degrade cannabis because they say that it makes you lazy and that you don't do anything while on it but make fart jokes and play video games. Well I don't play video games, and I don't watch television. I get stoned and I make oil paintings. And I've drawn and painted on psychedelics, as well. In some cases the results have been extraordinary. In some cases they've been terrible.

    This drawing, for example, was worked on for several weeks. There were times in which I was sober while working on it but for the most part I was stoned throughout the entire process. And there were a few times I happened to be on mushrooms while working on it as well. It's very greatly influenced by my experiences with psychedelics.



    Let me clarify something. By no means do I think that using psychedelics could turn an average person into a great artist. HOWEVER, I think that if the artist already has the proper background and technical training, the psychedelics could enhance their art and push it into new and interesting directions. Did LSD account entirely for the greatness of The Beatles? Of course not. But did it make their music better and more interesting? I think so. I'll take Sgt Peppers over Please Please Me any day!

    And there is of course a LOT of bad psychedelic art out there. But there have been a few artists (who I mentioned before - Robert Venosa, Andrew Jones, Alex Grey, Ernst Fuchs, Andrew Gonzalez, etc) who have been influenced by psychedelics and make absolutely astonishing artworks. Hopefully I will join them in the ranks of psychedelic art history someday.

    And about E (MDMA), I've used it occasionally as well as other Phenylethylamine empathogens (MDA, MDE, Methylone, etc.). As for now I have no intention of taking it again. There was a time when I was using it to help overcome social anxiety because it made me more relaxed and open to meeting people. I'd kiss lots of pretty girls while on it I attributed that solely to the drugs! Now I see that I can't be reliant on the drugs to help me in social situations and so I go to parties sober. And I don't need it anymore. I'm fully comfortable being sober in social situations and I still kiss the pretty girls!

    And no VK, I am not stupid. I don't think anyone has accused me of that in my entire life. I am, however, young, naive, idealistic, and romantic. So take everything I say with a spoonful of salt.

    I would also say that cannabis has caused more harm (however minor the amount) to my life than LSD or other psychedelics have. I used to smoke daily and it got to the point where it was causing some physical problems such as fatigue, lethargy, and even sexual dysfunction. Now I smoke less (only 3 or 4 times a week - or not at all depending on the mood and situation) and I supplement it with regular exercise (yoga, dance, etc.) and healthy diet to ward off those potential ailments.

    Another thing about Terence McKenna is that although he advocated the use of psychedelics, he did advocate the use of psychedelics much more responsibly than Tim Leary. Tim Leary basically encouraged people to drop acid daily. I've never liked Tim Leary (though he's certainly a hell of a lot better than fucking Daniel Pinchbeck.) McKenna, on the other hand, told people to take psychedelics very infrequently (3 or 4 times a year at most) albeit at very high doses. He also said that the best way to use cannabis is to smoke once a week. Now (my personal psychedelic hero) Aldous Huxley, on the other hand, said that you may only need to use a psychedelic substance once, and that only the "best and brightest" of our society should be the ones to use them. He said that most people don't have the intellectual capacity or the spiritual insight to be able to properly utilize those experiences. I greatly agree with this.

    The bottom line is that psychedelics helped me greatly in my personal development, and even if that isn't the case for most people and I just won the psychedelic lottery, it's hard for me to look at them without some kind of reverence given that fact. You have to be able to decide for yourself whether or not drugs can be good for you. Maybe you'll convince yourself they will be and they won't? Like anything else in life, it's a gamble. You play, you win. You play, you lose. You play.

    Last edited by OldJake666; December 2nd, 2012 at 06:11 PM.
     

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  7. #96
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    I didn't say there was anything wrong with dancing. I said there was something wrong with doing drugs that prompt you to do other things than focusing on what is important. It's not about being a buzz kill or hating fun. I've stated my thoughts on LSD already.

    What did you learn from that drawing? I mean, what real knowledge did you acquire, what part of your technique did you improve on or that was enhanced? How is that piece exemplary in regards to to the work you normally produce? If you're trying to convince me that I'm wrong because you do drugs and are productive, then prove that those kinds of drawings are productive. If you're going to claim that drugs helps people be more creative, then prove causation. If you can't prove causation, then it's not different from an athlete thanking God for scoring points.

    There's a bit of placebo effect and self-fulfilling prophecy at play. If you're convinced drugs enhance art because your role models said so, then you're going to interpret the results of taking drugs while working that way.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
     

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  9. #97
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    Yeah, I'm actually with s.ketch on this 100%. I'm glad to see a good discussion going and VK is MAH BOI...

    But drugs for "improving art" not gonna happen for me. But to each their own. My response to the OP was more of a joke than
    anything else, because man those forums look dry...and I don't appreciate the hit n run spam tactics for advertising your forums.

     

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  11. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    What did you learn from that drawing? I mean, what real knowledge did you acquire, what part of your technique did you improve on or that was enhanced? How is that piece exemplary in regards to to the work you normally produce? If you're trying to convince me that I'm wrong because you do drugs and are productive, then prove that those kinds of drawings are productive. If you're going to claim that drugs helps people be more creative, then prove causation. If you can't prove causation, then it's not different from an athlete thanking God for scoring points.
    There isn't much that makes that drawing more valuable than others I've done other than it shows a more refined grasp of the medium of graphite and is stylistically less derivative of other artists' work that I admire (and that is actually what makes it valuable - that it looks like my art and not particularly much like other artists.) As for what makes a work of art "productive," that's opening a new can of worms, isn't it? I suppose the fact that it's a personal work that was created for the sake of visual exploration alone makes it a work of fine art, and more a work of aesthetic than a kind of statement towards anything. I think if anything, it's more of a representation of my subconscious. It was created with the surrealist idea of automatic drawing in mind.

    Improvement, of course, is subjective in its own right. I create from a different place under substances. I don't look at other artists for inspiration or for visual answers under their influence, and I create from a more genuine and personal place. My artworks also tend to be more detailed and I have a greater level of patience.

    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    There's a bit of placebo effect and self-fulfilling prophecy at play. If you're convinced drugs enhance art because your role models said so, then you're going to interpret the results of taking drugs while working that way.
    You're probably very right about this. I'm also very inspired by and have a great affinity for psychedelic culture (in both it's 1960's technicolor and contemporary Burning Man stylings) so that probably has impacted my work as much if not more greatly than the psychedelic experience itself. But then there lies the question of whether that culture is genuinely a product of drug use or if drug use is merely an aspect of it, and that's a sort of chicken or the egg type scenario. I will say that the contemporary psychedelic culture, this weird and eclectic fusing of Merry Pranksters-meets-Mad Max, Burning Man-meets-Cirque du Soleil, Syd Barrett-in-an-opium-den-in-the-wild-west-after-the-apocalypse culture is THE most imaginative, interesting, and just fucking cool subculture I have ever been exposed to and I think it is the most genuine and unique form of a counter-culture that exists today.

    And I'll quote this again, because it's the most succinct statement I can make about my position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob Kobryn View Post
    The bottom line is that psychedelics helped me greatly in my personal development, and even if that isn't the case for most people and I just won the psychedelic lottery, it's hard for me to look at them without some kind of reverence given that fact. You have to be able to decide for yourself whether or not drugs can be good for you. Maybe you'll convince yourself they will be and they won't? Like anything else in life, it's a gamble. You play, you win. You play, you lose. You play.


    Last edited by OldJake666; December 2nd, 2012 at 08:00 PM.
     

  12. #99
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Thanks for taking the reins on this one, S.Ketch. We're pretty much on the same page.

    My main issues with this thread are not whether you can do some recreational drugs, have a good time, survive, and be productive in life. I know many people who dallied around with illicit substances and still kept up with things, house, kids, two cars, mortgage, etc.

    My issue is not even with the facts of my experience with people who had problems with drug use and drug addiction, wasted their money week in and week out for years, or had unshowered, smelly drug user friends who hung out for decades in crummy run down apartments eating junk food and watching television and telling lies to themselves, or the people I knew who ended up with "pot cough" or heart problems or in mental wards. Nor do I disagree that alcohol can also be a problem.

    My main issue is that, if you want to give somebody good life advice, if you want to be cool in my book, tell young artists the real truth about life... that only discipline will save them. Only discipline will get them where they hope to go, mentally, socially, financially, psychologically. Only discipline with give them pride in themselves. Only discipline will give them the chance to stay healthy and active for the longest time fate may allow.

    Mr. Kendall, please stop PM'ing me. I'm glad you are Star Eaters' BOI, that's great that you are friends with the mods. My answer to every one of your PM's will continue to be "please do not PM me." So let's not waste each other's time.

    At least Icarus tried!


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  14. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    My main issue is that, if you want to give somebody good life advice, if you want to be cool in my book, tell young artists the real truth about life...
    I don't care about being cool in your book Kev, at all, or giving out hackneyed advice about discipline. That's what we have fortune cookies and kung fu movies for. The poster I was originally responding to asked for specific information about recreational drugs- the effects, upsides and pitfalls of which I endeavored to explain a little bit in a lighthearted way.
    The fact that you declined to discuss this in private and instead just slagged me off in public, again, along with scoffing at anyone who disagreed with you, was a shame but like I say, I'm not losing sleep over it.
    Im losing sleep cos Breaking Bad is making me freak out. Too intense.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; December 2nd, 2012 at 10:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    Did you notice the part where Cannibis is more harmful to others than Cocaine and Meth? When's the last time you saw someone on pot kill someone or steal from their mothers to keep the habit? What's that? Did you just get me? Did you just catch me admitting that pot isn't harmful? Ha! You win.

    This is the original study the chart
    was taken from, it has a separate chart where is lists what makes a drug harmful. In the case of cannabis, the highest category is Economic cost, such as lost in productivity, it has no drug specific mortality. Unlike, say alcohol, butane, metadone and tobacco (all legal substances.) I suspect something like WoW would rate to a higher harm to self and to other if you could the loss of productivity, maybe we should outlaw WoW as well. And do all kinds of nonsense propaganda to scare people off WoW.


    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    Lucid, rational science? It certainly can't be found in pro-drug literature. Inducing delusions is good science? Fighting the man is good science? Putting things in our bodies to change the way we think so that we reach a higher level of understanding? Who's scientific method is that? This isn't about good science, or science at all. It's a political battle. It's a battle of values. Just like in any political debate, science is used and abused. Statistics too. I didn't realize a concise scientific argument consisted of who can find the most poorly constructed charts.
    How much pro-drug literature have you read?

    Also, I'm going to leave this here, it's not a scientific study, just anecdotes, but it's still interesting. "Scientists On Drugs: 11 Science & Tech Luminaries Who Used"

    Also, your rant is not entirely coherent and it makes you sound a bit aggressive and hysterical maybe you could use a relaxant. I'm just saying.

     

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  18. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    You know what's cool? Someone working their fingers to the bone trying to master their craft. Someone posting their progress and creating great art. You know who I want to hang out with? That guy. The guy/gal who is so enthusiastic about his art that he has trouble talking about anything else. The guy/gal who constantly learns and moves forward. The guy who goes to college to work, not wasting two to four years trying to figure out what to do with his life on someone else's dime.
    Fairly ironic coming from the guy who has no art link in their signature and more activity in the lounge than in any other section. It appears that you did post art in 2008 though, something about a GTA remake, and in 2007 bad sketches about necrophilia. A few graphic design things more recently. You have been here since 2005, you have shown no evidence of having done any significant stride at art and you lecture people like Kendall and Jake about working hard? Are you high?

     

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  20. #103
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    I didn't lecture anyone. I described the kind of person who I thought was way cooler than a drug user.

    Argument ad no-artem. My apparent lack of skill in art has nothing to do with my credibility in the discussion at hand. Indignation doesn't bother me. If that's your attempt to shame me out of voicing an opinions you don't like, nice try.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
     

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  22. #104
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    I've known too many junkies to not have a problem with people telling others to do drugs. Plato didn't use drugs to glimpse the spheres he postulated were the source of knowledge. The prophets of the Bible had visions without using stimulants. Most of the drug inspired art I've seen is basically the same. Just swirls with optical distortion of any halfway recognizable feature… the kind of stuff that only really resonates with other junkies.

    I've heard of E, and how wonderful the people taking it think they feel. I've also seen the piece on dateline a few years back about a college boy who went to a rave and used it once and never woke up... and that isn't uncommon either. Just google “ecstasy coma”.

    If you want to read something interesting about some of the official government research on psychedelics read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra This is where a lot of these drugs came from, research on mind control. Ever wonder why they're so available even with the war on drugs? Now they have more willing test subjects than they know what to do with.

    I'm with Kev on this, help people deal with the realities of life not escape them.
    I have nothing personal against you guys, but I strongly disagree with promoting drug use as a cure for lack of creativity.

     

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    I don´t want to come up rude or anything, i´m not even saying the drawing is bad but Jake, is that picture really something you needed weeks on acid and mushrooms to come up with? i don´t see what you are trying to show there.

    Honestly. i don´t really care how much someone loves drugs and stuff, it is your own problem what you do but all that huge effort in rethoric trying to pass these things as better that brocoli and green tea and recommend them to others is silly.
    So its something you choose to do for recreation, because its your time and body (and cash) and for wathever reason decided it was fun, then fuck it, leave it at that, not judging. Any speech going on branches to explain some deeper meaning than that is a load of mumbo jumbo. I´m with s.sketch, shorinji and kev on this one. Its really not a constructive thing to be recommending.

    If you feel the need to convince yourself and others that what your doing is actually benefitial and will help your work in some way maybe you are a bit insecure about it after all. I bet more than one person after spending hours playing a videogame then went to themselves "well, i need to do this anywaus, its research after all" its the same kind of cop out.

    I also don´t see how linking the quality of someones work to a substance they happen to use is not insulting to the years of time and effort they have put in to get there but thats just me.

    Last edited by JDSart; December 3rd, 2012 at 12:51 AM.
     

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  26. #106
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Will one of the MODs please tell me how to block Mr. Kendall from PM'ing me. Or just block him from PMing me. Thanks.

    At least Icarus tried!


    My Process: Dead Rider Graphic Novel (Dark Horse Comics) plus oil paintings, pencils and other goodies:
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    Try going to your personal settings and going to the "edit ignore list" and adding his name!

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qitsune View Post
    Fairly ironic coming from the guy who has no art link in their signature and more activity in the lounge than in any other section. It appears that you did post art in 2008 though, something about a GTA remake, and in 2007 bad sketches about necrophilia. A few graphic design things more recently. You have been here since 2005, you have shown no evidence of having done any significant stride at art and you lecture people like Kendall and Jake about working hard? Are you high?
    i laughed so hard i woke up the girlfriend

    by the way im totally confused by the fact people are judging people based on wether or not they do drugs, i sincerely hope you guys dont actually practice that in real life.. im so used to basing who i judge as cool by how nice they are and how good of a person they are, im not particularly concerned with how successful a person is or if they do or dont have drugs.

     

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    i've been coming here for the last two days and every time it's like

    Name:  tripping balls.gif
Views: 166
Size:  1.83 MBim like this

    woha i thought that guy was friends with...? huh
    he doesnt like him?
    she said what?...

    ooohh shit! yo

     

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  32. #110
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    Wow has this been getting heated!

    Is it odd that I'm on both s.ketches's, AND VK's side?
    I get that perhaps drugs do provide a placebo effect for art, and I can't argue with that. It's also sort of a question no one can argue with. That's like getting into the "whole new-aged" mind over matter/ "the secrete" stuff. Does anything do anything, or are we all just willing it to happen with our thoughts (woah, deep I know).

    And I'm entirely against giving drugs or anything else credit for the work one creates, except for of course the mediums the artists used to create said work. It wasn't god, It wasn't drugs, and it wasn't the the universe just plopping art in front of them and saying "here take credit for this". It was the hard work of the artist. If any piece of the creative process can be given credit to out side forces for, it is most often only the initial idea/ inspiration/ concept phase; and I see nothing wrong if someone uses drugs as their muse. Use what ever you want as your muse, so long as it inspires you, and hopefully isn't detrimental to your health (but nowadays breathing could kill you).

    Jacob, I can't verify this, but I'd be weary of constant use of LSD and other hallucinogens. I've heard that there have been several cases of people losing their minds/ going insane. I'm not sure how it happens, but I've heard of a few documented cases (perhaps their cause of insanity has changed, but it was supposed to be due to hallucinogens.) just watch out. also there's that whole after shock thing? where after you've used a hallucinogen, all of a sudden it can effect you again, even years after you've been sober. it would suck to have that happen while driving or something. Be careful.

    Now here's a question, as one with ADHD, I've wrestled with this for awhile. Doctors want to prescribe me and others like me with basically speed. Ritalin, is a stimulant with from what i understand very similar properties to amphetamines.
    Codine is common in cough medicine, and is a close relative to herione. My father became addicted to opiates through the uses of cough medicine.
    people with depression need to take often seritonine supplements. For shizophrenia, people are basically given a plate of pills a day. basically any mental issue is nowadays cured with some over the counter drug. If you have a headache, take an ibprophen, if you are ill tylonol. Need more pep, heres an energy drink; want more muscles, drink a protien shake.

    so what about those who don't have Mental issues, or behavioral problems, at least as far as a psychologist is concerned, yet feel better on a self medication/ drug?
    If you are awkward in a social situation, and a drug makes you feel better, why shouldn't you take it? If you can't get your penis up, you take a pill, so if you can't get over your fear of talking to someone why not take a drug?
    If you don't feel creative and a drug helps, why shouldn't you take it?
    My question is, in our overly medicated world, where it seems most people in well to do countries, walk around in a doctor prescribed drug induced haze; why is it not alright to use "illegal" drugs for other issues?
    Is being awkward not a mental issue that effects ones life? Is being overly aggressive/ an uptight dick, not a negative personal issue that hurts yourself and those around you?


    I pose this question as one who associates with neither the users nor the abstinence's pov. I don't practice in pharmaceutical drug use as much as possible, nor do I take illegal drugs, as it's effects are not worth the potential threats of prison or fines. I do take daily vitamins, and to me that might as well be a drug as well. I also drink coffee. a lot of coffee. and tea.

    Fudge this AWESOME place!!!

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  34. #111
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    If I angered anyone to the point that they just want to rip me apart, please do so here: http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...orks&p=3594896

    Last edited by OldJake666; December 3rd, 2012 at 05:05 AM.
     

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  36. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorinji_Knight View Post
    I've known too many junkies to not have a problem with people telling others to do drugs. Plato didn't use drugs to glimpse the spheres he postulated were the source of knowledge. The prophets of the Bible had visions without using stimulants. Most of the drug inspired art I've seen is basically the same. Just swirls with optical distortion of any halfway recognizable feature… the kind of stuff that only really resonates with other junkies..

    Are you high? How many times? This has to be the 4th or 5th time Ive addressed this, and others have too: we are NOT advocating the use of drugs that junkies get hooked on, like coke, smack and meth. Can you understand that?

    Plato didnt use drugs? Im pretty sure he enjoyed a drop of wine, and who knows maybe he was one of the many greeks that like a pipe of opium now and again...

    I did look up ecstasy comas, and I also looked up deaths caused by ecstasy. In the period and location I found data for, the UK between 2003 and 2007, there were 69 deaths where ecstasy use was the sole implicated drug. None (0) were due to allergic or other reactions to the drug itself, and were instead due to heat stroke from dancing too much, drinking too much water and raised blood pressure aggravating undiagnosed heart problems.
    Not bad for a totally unregulated illegal drug.
    So when you said ecstasy causing people to fall into coma and not wake up was common, you were either lying, or just wrong. Its extremely, fabulously uncommon. it is however extremely widely reported when such a case does occur, unlike deaths from drinking, crack, aspirin, driving a car, being fat... so maybe you were just falling prey to classic availability error. In any case, you were flat wrong.

    In the same period, thousands of people were killed by heroin and cocaine poisioning.
    Those are facts of life Shorinji.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; December 3rd, 2012 at 05:40 AM.
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  38. #113
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    Actually there's evidence to suggest that many of the best and brightest of Greek society, including Plato, took a psychedelic substance, speculated to be Sleepy Grass (which contains LSA - a naturally occurring cousin of LSD) in a ritual setting. Read The Mysteries of Eleusis. http://www.erowid.org/library/books_...scriptum.shtml

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob Kobryn View Post
    Actually there's evidence to suggest that many of the best and brightest of Greek society, including Plato, took a psychedelic substance, speculated to be Sleepy Grass (which contains LSA - a naturally occurring cousin of LSD) in a ritual setting. Read The Mysteries of Eleusis. http://www.erowid.org/library/books_...scriptum.shtml
    Well, I guess DKA makes the news reliable.

     

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    You can clean up a junkie, but an acid casualty is forever.

    I was once on the receiving end of a critique so savagely nasty, I marched straight out of class to the office and changed my major (sketchbook).
     

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    *Come back to thread, really heated arguments between specific people, starts whistling and heads towards exit

     

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  45. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFierce View Post
    *Come back to thread, really heated arguments between specific people, starts whistling and heads towards exit
    uuuhhh dude! fuckin auhhh pull up a seat!



     

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    Quote Originally Posted by themegagod View Post
    Is it odd that I'm on both s.ketches's, AND VK's side?
    I get that perhaps drugs do provide a placebo effect for art, and I can't argue with that. It's also sort of a question no one can argue with. That's like getting into the "whole new-aged" mind over matter/ "the secrete" stuff. Does anything do anything, or are we all just willing it to happen with our thoughts (woah, deep I know).
    Different strokes for different folks, drugs wouldn't do anything for me art-wise and I never tried to take any to improve me art. It does change one's perspective however, in ways that are hard to explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by themegagod View Post

    Jacob, I can't verify this, but I'd be weary of constant use of LSD and other hallucinogens. I've heard that there have been several cases of people losing their minds/ going insane. I'm not sure how it happens, but I've heard of a few documented cases (perhaps their cause of insanity has changed, but it was supposed to be due to hallucinogens.) just watch out. also there's that whole after shock thing? where after you've used a hallucinogen, all of a sudden it can effect you again, even years after you've been sober. it would suck to have that happen while driving or something. Be careful.
    This is the most serious study I found about LSD induced psychosis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6870484 I only had access to the abstract, but it seems LSD is a trigger to some people who are predisposed to addiction and schizophrenia, so it wouldn't cause permanent damage to random people.

    Quote Originally Posted by themegagod View Post
    Now here's a question, as one with ADHD, I've wrestled with this for awhile. Doctors want to prescribe me and others like me with basically speed. Ritalin, is a stimulant with from what i understand very similar properties to amphetamines.
    Codine is common in cough medicine, and is a close relative to herione. My father became addicted to opiates through the uses of cough medicine.
    people with depression need to take often seritonine supplements. For shizophrenia, people are basically given a plate of pills a day. basically any mental issue is nowadays cured with some over the counter drug. If you have a headache, take an ibprophen, if you are ill tylonol. Need more pep, heres an energy drink; want more muscles, drink a protien shake.

    so what about those who don't have Mental issues, or behavioral problems, at least as far as a psychologist is concerned, yet feel better on a self medication/ drug?
    If you are awkward in a social situation, and a drug makes you feel better, why shouldn't you take it? If you can't get your penis up, you take a pill, so if you can't get over your fear of talking to someone why not take a drug?
    If you don't feel creative and a drug helps, why shouldn't you take it?
    My question is, in our overly medicated world, where it seems most people in well to do countries, walk around in a doctor prescribed drug induced haze; why is it not alright to use "illegal" drugs for other issues?
    Is being awkward not a mental issue that effects ones life? Is being overly aggressive/ an uptight dick, not a negative personal issue that hurts yourself and those around you?
    You have to be aware that the different issues you have listed have different causes and the drugs you have listed have different mechanism. For example, codeine is an opiate, its addictive mechanism is completely different that that of amphetamines (mdma, speed, ritalin, chrystal meth) and even amphetamines don't all work in the same way. For example, if you abuse MDMA, it just stops working, you can keep taking more and more and it will be bad for you (read : neurotoxic) but it will be pointless because you won't have a high again. Ritalin in small doses is not harmful unless you take it for very long (multiple years.) Of course, you may want to learn to overcome your ADHD by yourself, but it's not just a problem of discipline, it's not a question of:"If I really wanted to, I'd stop being ADHD" you can't will ADHD away anymore than you can will depression away even if discipline and therapy help.

    Opiates are still in use legally despite being known addictives simply because they are some of the most effective/cheap painkillers we have available.

    There have been studies about using molecules like mdma and ghb in therapy for things like PTSD, but these studies were either conducted before the molecules became schedule 1 in the US or outside of the US. They have had great results, but it's unlikely that they will be repeated in the US now, or even taken seriously by north american governments if they are being done elsewhere.

    Also, I tend to split drugs in my mind between "recreational" and numbing. The drugs one takes for fun, and the ones one takes to feel less bad. It's not all a question of self-medication. People usually don't go to Six Flags to feel less bad or forget their problems, or because they feel awkward. In the same way, people don't usually take mdma to feel less bad, they take it because it's fun. It's a recreational activity. Now I know some drugs are bad, I used to live in the neighborhood where crackwhores go to die (and to pee on my car) but I also know hundreds of people from all walks of life who take recreational drugs and have no adverse effect, they have normal respectable jobs and these people are never in the news, because it's more interesting to show the crackwhores peeing on my car (true story.)

    Quote Originally Posted by themegagod View Post
    I do take daily vitamins, and to me that might as well be a drug as well. I also drink coffee. a lot of coffee. and tea.
    Actually, studies show that if you have an adequate variety of food you don't need more vitamins. They are not a drug to you because your body gets rid of most of the stuff you don't need (that's why you probably pee neon yellow after taking vitamins. You are just buying expensive pee.)

     

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  48. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    Are you high? How many times?
    Nope, I don't do drugs. Never have never will. Like I said I've known too many junkies. I know the other side of the coin. I've worked in construction many years, where recreational drug use is rampant. It's been my experience that my guys that did drugs were the worst workers, the biggest attitudes, and the most likely to get someone hurt. These people aren't respected by anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    This has to be the 4th or 5th time Ive addressed this, and others have too: we are NOT advocating the use of drugs that junkies get hooked on, like coke, smack and meth. Can you understand that?
    I understand that you think that they're not addictive and don't leave any lasting damage. There haven't been many studies to know the full implications of taking these drugs. Also I know from personal experience several guys who've used recreational drugs a lot when they young and later attribute it as the reason for their permanent diminished capacity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    UK between 2003 and 2007, there were 69 deaths where ecstasy use was the sole implicated drug.
    This is an acceptable number to you for such a small subset of people? I'd call that more than common... thank you for illustrating my point.

    I don't care that you guys use drugs. It’s your life. Maybe you're different and drugs do wonderful things for you, the preponderance of the evidence is that they're harmful to individuals and to society on whole. Please don't romanticize it for all of the young and impressionable artists that come to this site. Some of them look up to you guys. You could be the reason that a 15yr old on the other side of the world tries drugs for the first time. Sobriety is a beautiful thing.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qitsune View Post
    Also, I tend to split drugs in my mind between "recreational" and numbing. The drugs one takes for fun, and the ones one takes to feel less bad. It's not all a question of self-medication. People usually don't go to Six Flags to feel less bad or forget their problems, or because they feel awkward. In the same way, people don't usually take mdma to feel less bad, they take it because it's fun. It's a recreational activity. Now I know some drugs are bad, I used to live in the neighborhood where crackwhores go to die (and to pee on my car) but I also know hundreds of people from all walks of life who take recreational drugs and have no adverse effect, they have normal respectable jobs and these people are never in the news, because it's more interesting to show the crackwhores peeing on my car (true story.)


    Actually, studies show that if you have an adequate variety of food you don't need more vitamins. They are not a drug to you because your body gets rid of most of the stuff you don't need (that's why you probably pee neon yellow after taking vitamins. You are just buying expensive pee.)
    sorry about your car. Due to crack whores my friends and I had to develop a new rule at parties. No shitting in the bath tub... don't ask. And a friend of mine once pissed on the windshield of a car, but he was sober. It was a joke or something... I still don't get it.

    My pee isn't vibrant yet, and I keep it to mostly fish oils, vitamin As, Bs, and memory enhancers such as ginko biloba. Its supposed to be a concoction that gives me more energy and increases brain function. If it does cause that effect, and doesn't come out in my pee (as though I use all the vitamins) Couldn't those effects be likened to drug usage?

    Fudge this AWESOME place!!!

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