im getting tired of using references
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    im getting tired of using references

    i can draw ok from my head but not nearly as well without using a reference. this is upsetting me because how is this an "art" if you have to copy someone's work. its a craft. and i know that saying "you have to draw 1000 hands to be able to comfortably draw hands from your imagination". but honestly, i dont wanna draw everything a thousand times. i feel like a human copying machine. and dont get me started on those people that use grids. whats the point of this? to recreate a picture that already exists? i feel like what i want to draw is limited to what i can find in a decent quality on google images. now i could just draw from my head for fun, but it doesnt come out nearly as good and i dont think that improves you really. also, i would like to reach a professional level some day. this frustrates me that i have to sit there and copy other people's work.

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    OmenSpirits is offline Commercial-Illustrator in-training, NOT an artist. Level 13 Gladiator: Retiarius
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    Quit.

    End of frustration.

    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
    -John Huston, Director
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    1. Stop being lazy and draw the damn thousand hands.

    2. You don't understand how to use reference. If you're just blindly copying photos, you're doing it wrong. You need to understand how things are structured, how light works, how perspective works, basic anatomy - ALL THAT - so you can glean useful information from reference pictures, edit out the less useful information, and add your own modifications from imagination. PLUS, professionals don't grab random photos off of Google, they take their own reference photos, so the ref they use is exactly what they need for the picture.

    3. If you want to reach a professional level, you can't be lazy and skip essential areas of practice. Snap out of it. And that means...

    4. DRAW FROM LIFE. Copying 1000 photos will not get you nearly as far as drawing 1000 things from life.

    For a better understanding of how to use reference creatively and without being a copying machine, check out the photo ref sticky: http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...ence-correctly

    Also check out James Gurney's book "How to Paint What Doesn't Exist".

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    If you're working in a professional capacity you'll likely be using reference, unless you somehow manage to maintain a library in your head of everything in the world.

    There's also a difference between copying a reference and referencing a reference, this link might help you clear up some thoughts on using reference

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    im getting tired of using references... i dont wanna draw everything a thousand times...

    also, i would like to reach a professional level some day...


    This is so ridiculous that I'm honestly not sure if you're trolling, but assuming you're not:
    Your problem is that the first two statements are at direct odds with the last statement. You can either work hard and "draw everything a thousand times" and use references to get better, or you can draw for fun from imagination only and not reach a professional level.

    References and studies are part of art/improvement. It's time to man up and get used to it. If you're not ready to put in the time and do things the right way, and you don't feel like ever using references again, maybe being a professional artist is not a good goal for you.

    Also, I don't know of anyone who recommends just sitting around just copying photos of things or making grids to reproduce other people's works, so you're imposing on yourself an extremely bizarre and ultimately unhelpful study regimen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkylulu View Post
    i can draw ok from my head but not nearly as well without using a reference.
    Show us some...

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkylulu View Post
    if you have to copy someone's work.
    Copying directly is not how you use reference.


    Quote Originally Posted by tinkylulu View Post
    i dont wanna draw everything a thousand times.
    I would say this is a lack of devotion to achieve your full potential

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkylulu View Post
    and dont get me started on those people that use grids. whats the point of this?
    Observation of measurement and proportions.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkylulu View Post
    now i could just draw from my head for fun, but it doesnt come out nearly as good and i dont think that improves you really.
    Draw from life.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkylulu View Post
    also, i would like to reach a professional level some day. this frustrates me that i have to sit there and copy other people's work.
    So devote yourself and draw the same thing "a thousand times", you may find you need to do it more than that. "Copying" other peoples work, such as master artists, can give you a great insight into their technique and methods.

    I have painted from a lot photos...it doesn't really help in terms of a 3D form...draw from life! Now I'm going to go and take my own advice and sit down to paint. Cheerio.

    Oh yeah...Read this LINK here on CA.

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    Reference is for referencing not just copying. Learning construction theory will help you be more independant of from your refs. But the theory will never completely replace reference. Try reading Andrew Loomis's books, or even How to Draw the Marvel Way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorinji_Knight View Post
    How to Draw the Marvel Way.
    Ha, I have that book, it's fun!

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    *Gets comfortable*

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    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post
    1. Stop being lazy and draw the damn thousand hands.
    Only a thousand? I think you are underestimating it. :-)

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    Draw from your head, look at what you drew to see where you went horribly wrong, and then get reference and improve it. Trying to do it entirely out of your head is like trying to write a book set in 1945 but refusing to do any research whatsoever. You KNOW that you will get facts wrong. But there's no reason why you have to type out someone else's book set in 1945 and complain the whole time about how it's not writing.

    And the studies will make a big difference once you connect them to something you are doing for fun. Don't want to draw 1000 hands? No problem. Draw some people doing stuff. When you are tired of drawing people doing stuff with mangled appendages, studying how hands are put together will be the solution to an annoying problem and not some sort of bullshit make-work chore that stands between you and drawing warriors.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkylulu
    but honestly, i dont wanna draw everything a thousand times.
    Sure you do. You will be using the basics in every picture you ever make. It's not like after you draw your 500th human you will suddenly go "okay, that was 1000 hands, I am never drawing another hand again!" Almost all your people are going to have hands and you will probably be drawing people until you're dead so... Might as well learn to enjoy drawing everything because it's all going to come up in your pictures again and again and again.

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    everyone that replied rudely and thinks he's some witty big shot can get out of here.
    i came here asking for advice, not to get rudely made fun of. "bullying" me over a forum jeez..
    i draw 4-6 hours a day. its my biggest hobby. while im no expert (neither are some of you "im not scared to be rude on the internet" bigshots) i am quite decent.
    about the "i dont want to draw a thousand hands" "i wanna be a professional", youre right that was poorly phrased and contradicting. trust me ive drawn plenty of hands. i was just hoping to eventually reach the level of drawing full drawings really well from my head. so youre saying most professionals heavily rely on refrences and dont in fact create concept art from scratch?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Star Eater View Post
    *Gets comfortable*
    get out, youre not funny

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    Quote Originally Posted by OmenSpirits View Post
    Quit.

    End of frustration.
    you quit. get out

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    Something that might help speed things up. Draw a quick perspective grid similar to camera space in the photo you are referencing and then BUILD the thing you are drawing. That means conform more to your grid and not the contours of the picture. So your object might be at a slightly different angle since your grid wont be exact. This forces you to actually construct and build from cubes and spheres so you actually LEARN what it is you are drawing. Check out the student gallery at FZD http://www.fzdschool.com/gallery_sketchbook_01.html for an example about what I mean. You need to think in terms of building things. It doesn't really feel like copying and its how you are going to do it without any reference too.

    Hope it helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkylulu View Post
    so youre saying most professionals heavily rely on refrences and dont in fact create concept art from scratch?
    You get the idea, you sketch the idea, you refine the sketch, you get reference to make sure you didn't bend the arm in some impossible direction, etc.

    Reference everything for concept art? Given time constraints probably not. Intend to create a polished illustration? Probably want to make sure your tree looks like a tree.

    Going to need a significantly thicker skin.

    EDIT: Wow, fast ban.

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    I've helped Tinky on her mystical improvement journey by giving her a free vacation from the forums.

    If you decide to come back, take some time to think before you post. In the meantime, study those refs.

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    Reference from books or magazines to get familiar with different parts of the body (specially if you're aiming for realistic style) you don't need to "just" copy. Everyone here who commented is doing the same thing, It's the only way to get better. If you are already fed up take a break for a while then practice again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkylulu View Post
    everyone that replied rudely and thinks he's some witty big shot can get out of here.
    i came here asking for advice, not to get rudely made fun of. "bullying" me over a forum jeez..
    i draw 4-6 hours a day. its my biggest hobby. while im no expert (neither are some of you "im not scared to be rude on the internet" bigshots) i am quite decent.
    about the "i dont want to draw a thousand hands" "i wanna be a professional", youre right that was poorly phrased and contradicting. trust me ive drawn plenty of hands. i was just hoping to eventually reach the level of drawing full drawings really well from my head. so youre saying most professionals heavily rely on refrences and dont in fact create concept art from scratch?
    Yes, that is what I'm saying. You have an ignorant idea of what art is, and no clue what a professional artist does or how they do it. Using reference means you use it to inform your work to make it more believable, any idiot can copy something, that's not what using reference means. If you want to learn how to draw and paint something, draw and paint from life, if you can't do that you will never be capable of drawing from imagination with any ability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Star Eater View Post
    I've helped Tinky on her mystical improvement journey by giving her a free vacation from the forums.

    If you decide to come back, take some time to think before you post. In the meantime, study those refs.
    its tinkylulu.
    i had to make this account cause i couldnt see a way to message you.
    guess its a shame i didnt notice youre a moderator when i told you to get out huh. the reason i said that was that saying "getting comfortable" was clearly a mockery of me.
    i dont see why i deserve this kind of treatment. all i did was ask a question (even if naive, im here to learn) and i was looking for a serious discussion. and what do i get? all these people jumping on me and bullying me. all these people attacking me is fine but the minute i try to defend myself i get a 1 month ban? really? how is that objective? you (and everyone else) mocking me is fine but the minute i reply in the same tone you ban me? this is biased and unfair. go ahead and ban this account as well if you want. i just wanted you to see my point of you. i cant say this doesnt disappoint me

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    Quote Originally Posted by j67u View Post
    its tinkylulu.
    i had to make this account cause i couldnt see a way to message you.
    guess its a shame i didnt notice youre a moderator when i told you to get out huh. the reason i said that was that saying "getting comfortable" was clearly a mockery of me.
    i dont see why i deserve this kind of treatment. all i did was ask a question (even if naive, im here to learn) and i was looking for a serious discussion. and what do i get? all these people jumping on me and bullying me. all these people attacking me is fine but the minute i try to defend myself i get a 1 month ban? really? how is that objective? you (and everyone else) mocking me is fine but the minute i reply in the same tone you ban me? this is biased and unfair. go ahead and ban this account as well if you want. i just wanted you to see my point of you. i cant say this doesnt disappoint me
    oh ok.

    I was suspicious of this being a troll account, but I get it now. Thanks for clearing that up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j67u View Post
    its tinkylulu.
    all i did was ask a question...
    Your real stumbling block is that you are not clear about what your question is.
    That's why your post came over as an incoherent 'I'm frustrated give me a tip to make it better' whine and recieved the responses it did.
    Define the problem, be clear you understand what you want to ask and state it clearly.
    Not bothering to use the shift key doesn't help either.

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    Life - it's hard.


    I didn't think it was possible to be called an artist when you have nothing to say. It's like being a writer who publishes individual words as books and expects to be praised for it.
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    I have to agree with tinkylulu, in part. Some guys in here are way too serious about their ideas, and just because they are talking to a noob, doesn't mean they can always be right. Even thought the probability of you being right is much higher. Give some space..
    That ban was uncalled for, but then again, everyone makes mistakes

    Last edited by pegasi; November 6th, 2012 at 02:30 PM.
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    We do not cater to children who whine.

    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
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    Listen j67u/tinky...the way you asked the question was rude. It was petulant and I could feel your foot kicking at the floor and your body twist back and forth with a sour lok on your face because everything is so hard!

    So, the reality is as dpaint replied - the main problem is a lack of understanding of what art and illustration are about. That's ok...none of us knew when we started either. So you have a great deal of learning ahead of you, and not just in the technical craft but in awareness. That's ok too of course.

    If you're still here I think the one book that would help the most would be James Gurney's "Imaginitive Realism". It's all about the correct use of reference and how to use it for imaginary subjects. It is also an excellent primer on the field of illustration and has a great intro section on the historyof art. If you're serious about becoming an artist it's a great place to start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OmenSpirits View Post
    We do not cater to children who whine.
    Yeah, your response was funny. I'm talking about what came next..

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    1) It was a temp ban and still is.

    2 ) Here's a secret. If you get banned from a forum, most of the time you can rejoin under a different name. There is
    absolutely nothing stopping you from rejoining and taking part. Especially on a new account where we don't know your
    art or writing style very well. This is not a loophole, its basic forum 101.

    But, if you make multiple accounts and make a scene, well, you have to wonder where your heart is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasi View Post
    Yeah, your response was funny. I'm talking about what came next..
    No problem. Just a general statement.

    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
    -John Huston, Director
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    I wouldn't have been so fast with the ban hammer. Not because I'm nicer, but because I'm meaner.


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