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  1. #121
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    I've heard that statistic. It's still just funny how bizarre the system is to have said concept. I get the general idea on 'why' since there could easily be mass fraud I imagine far easier (terrible grammar there I know). The video I find funny because it's technically true.

    Speaking of Electoral you almost forget how many votes some states have. I was looking and thinking "Oh wow Romneys ahead by quite a bit" then I looked at some of the states that haven't voted yet and said nevermind. Good lord I forgot California has 55.

    Last edited by JFierce; November 6th, 2012 at 09:52 PM.
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    Popular vote would be a nice thing for those states that are decided by local tendencies, i.e. consistently blue or red. It is kind of interesting to think about why some states are reliably liberal or conservative and others (the battleground states) are basically a toss up. What demographics cause this exactly? States with high concentrations of bible thumpers for example are typically red but some do flip. Who settled there and why are their views more subject to change.

    The networks want you to believe you need to stay up until 3AM to see who won, that's big $$. I haven't watched any of them since they had former Generals who have never seen combat playing Madden with digital markers in '03. Was a big CNN junkie when I was on active duty though.

    Last edited by Kolbenito; November 6th, 2012 at 10:48 PM.
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    Kamber, Obamacare is crucial because healthcare is the single biggest culprit in personal bankrupcies for most American families, and the costs are ballooning out of control. It's not a separate issue from the economy. As for the economy itself, much like a building, or really any project, it takes a long time to build, but you can tear it down any time, easily. Obama's actions seem to be working, albeit slowly. Seems normal to me. I mean, he could do another stimulus, but, oh irony, it wouldn't be popular with Americans. And you still haven't explained what Clinton accomplished that was so great, especially in his last years of his presidency when every waking minute was spent fighting Lewinsky allegations. I don't think they were working together on anything.

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    Last edited by TASmith; November 6th, 2012 at 11:54 PM.
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  5. #124
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    Obama Biden.

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    It looks like we're back to square one of the last election it appears.... good lord lol.

    For Obamacare. The issue was more so if it was the right time for Obamacare imo. With the national debt, the economy and such. But still it's gone pretty far even passed the Supreme Court. But the problem is that this is Obama's final term. The healthcare thing probably needs refining since they have to balance the budget. Along with many many big issues.

    But as we just saw there's once again most likely a split with Rep. house majority and Senate/Pres. Dem.

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    CBS just called it as a WIN for Obama based on his projected win of Ohio.

    But, at this point Romney is winning the popular vote by about a million votes.

    (TA-- get back t'ya on that depending upon how long this thread survives!)

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    Edit: Looks like I don't need to post that again. Popular vote sorted itself out.


    On some minor more local levels Colorado legalized marijuana, and MD legalized gay marriage in a majority vote. Apparently so did Maine.

    Last edited by JFierce; November 7th, 2012 at 12:53 AM.
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    Michael Straczynski ?@straczynski
    54% of voters tonight were women. So to the losing Rep candidate who said women's bodies can shut down some things, turns out you were right

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    Now that California precincts are reporting Obama is also winning the popular vote.

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    PHEW!!!

    Although as the economy is likely going nowhere and as TA's link showed there are plenty of factors that could cause another deeper recession, does this guarantee a return for the hawkish rich evangelical white Republican guys next time around?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    PHEW!!!
    does this guarantee a return for the hawkish rich evangelical white Republican guys next time around?
    Isn't that usually the only kind they present?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    PHEW!!!

    Although as the economy is likely going nowhere and as TA's link showed there are plenty of factors that could cause another deeper recession, does this guarantee a return for the hawkish rich evangelical white Republican guys next time around?
    I have a feeling that demographics will ensure that the Angry White Men will never return to power again.

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    President doesn't matter as much if people kept the same congress in place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    PHEW!!!

    Although as the economy is likely going nowhere and as TA's link showed there are plenty of factors that could cause another deeper recession, does this guarantee a return for the hawkish rich evangelical white Republican guys next time around?
    I'd need to fact check this, but the last President who was elected of the same party as the incumbent was George H. Bush after Regan. It doesn't happen that often. Spending tax dollars on another space race would be huge for the economy, green energy would be a good candidate.

    Last edited by Kolbenito; November 7th, 2012 at 11:05 AM.
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    Dems picked up 3 in the senate. Looks like Marriage Equality passes in three out of four of the states it was on the ballot in- MD, ME, WA with those homophobes in MN turning it down

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    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    Kamber, Obamacare is crucial because healthcare is the single biggest culprit in personal bankrupcies for most American families, and the costs are ballooning out of control. It's not a separate issue from the economy. As for the economy itself, much like a building, or really any project, it takes a long time to build, but you can tear it down any time, easily. Obama's actions seem to be working, albeit slowly. Seems normal to me. I mean, he could do another stimulus, but, oh irony, it wouldn't be popular with Americans. And you still haven't explained what Clinton accomplished that was so great, especially in his last years of his presidency when every waking minute was spent fighting Lewinsky allegations. I don't think they were working together on anything.

    For those of you lucky enough to be Viacom's chosen ones, you can watch Jon Stewert and Stephen Colbert hash out the election results now here: http://www.comedycentral.com/live-election-night/

    This year, Viacom decided "Fuck Slovakia" so I don't get to see shit. And I got up at 5AM for this.

    UPDATE: Found a live feed!: http://livetvcafe.net/video/D7A846M8SDOO/Comedy-Central
    It's pretty simple TA-- at the end of his first term, Clinton was showing a surplus of billions of dollars. Under Obama's first term, the deficit has doubled and spending has hit over 6 trillion dollars. Plus, Clinton was pretty successful in getting much of his agenda accomplished in his first term-- getting things like NAFTA passed. Obama, on the other hand, has been mostly reactive and failed to do simple things like closing Gitmo and trying jihadis in U.S. criminal courts-- largely do a load of NIMBYism from his fellow Democrats in NY State such as Chuck Shumer.

    And, I don't see how Obamacare or Obama has really done a dang thing for anyone suffering from a medically related bankruptcy during his first term!

    The whole election has been a cautionary event-- it was a close call-- if he doesn't start turning things around in the next term, it'll set the stage for a Republican victory next time around. (But. . . they do tend to pick some really awful candidates.. . .)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    Kamber, Obamacare is crucial because healthcare is the single biggest culprit in personal bankrupcies for most American families, and the costs are ballooning out of control.
    It is a common misconception that Obamacare will fix that.

    http://news.investors.com/110512-631...rol-costs.aspx

    In what universe does higher demand and lower supply equal lowered cost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    does this guarantee a return for the hawkish rich evangelical white Republican guys next time around?
    Name a foreign policy in which Obama differs from Bush.

    Provide examples of how democratic politicians are less rich than republican politicians.

    Describe how it matters to you if a president is white or not.

    Name one evangelical president. Name one evangelical CONGRESSMAN.

    Being uninformed is one thing. Being uninformed and passionate is something beyond my comprehension entirely.

    Last edited by Stacybean; November 7th, 2012 at 11:17 AM.
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  23. #139
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    President Obama should hire Ron Paul as his personal advisor on how to start fixing things imo. I think you're right though, if the Republicans had put forward a better candidate they would have probably won because President Obama's first term was not very successful. I'm glad he was re-elected though, hoping Ron Paul is healthy enough to run for 2016 against however

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolbenito View Post
    President Obama should hire Ron Paul as his personal advisor on how to start fixing things imo. I think you're right though, if the Republicans had put forward a better candidate they would have probably won because President Obama's first term was not very successful. I'm glad he was re-elected though, hoping Ron Paul is healthy enough to run for 2016 against however
    Maybe in four years we can get a libertarian candidate to 5% and end this two-party system. It's hard to run on demonizing the other guy when there is a third option to vote for neither the demonized nor the demonizer. Gary Johnson got 1%, 1 million votes this time round.

    In other news, Pot is legal in WA and CO and it is illegal to make pornography in LA county without wearing a condom.

    Last edited by Stacybean; November 7th, 2012 at 11:34 AM.
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    Wouldn't the only real solution be to stop corporate funding of electoral campaigns though? Seems to me that's the core issue of pretty much everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stacybean View Post
    It is a common misconception that Obamacare will fix that.

    http://news.investors.com/110512-631...rol-costs.aspx

    In what universe does higher demand and lower supply equal lowered cost?
    I won't defend Obama's healthcare plan because I don't agree with it in its current form


    Name a foreign policy in which Obama differs from Bush.

    Bush started two wars Obama ended one and is wrapping up the second
    He went into Libya as a coalition of nations against republicans who wanted it to be an american incursion

    Provide examples of how democratic politicians are less rich than republican politicians.
    Of the top 50 richest members of congress 32 are republicans
    Look it up


    Describe how it matters to you if a president is white or not.
    This is just ignorant

    Name one evangelical president.
    Garfield and Johnson were part of the Disciples of Christ

    Name one evangelical CONGRESSMAN.
    There are two officially listed as Christian Evangelical
    Rep. Hartzler, Vicky (REP-MO-4th)
    Rep. Noem, Kristi (REP-SD-AL)
    but the number is higher because a lot of traditional christian groups are now evangelical


    Being uninformed is one thing. Being uninformed and passionate is something beyond my comprehension entirely.
    This applies to you too.


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    Quote Originally Posted by tobbA View Post
    Wouldn't the only real solution be to stop corporate funding of electoral campaigns though? Seems to me that's the core issue of pretty much everything.
    Money buys elecctions more easily when the masses are easily swayed. Say you have one candidate backed by corporate interests, one candidate backed by union interests, and one candidate representing the little guy with just the federal funding but he's allowed in debates. Isn't this a much better solution than limiting free speech.

    "In truth, in the case of individuals, their actual voting is not to be taken as proof of consent, even for the time being. On the contrary, it is to be considered that, without his consent having ever been asked, a man finds himself environed by a government that he cannot resist; a government that forces him to pay money, render service, and forego the exercise of many of his natural rights, under peril of weighty punishments. He sees, too, that other men practise this tyranny over him by the use of the ballot. He sees further that, if he will but use the ballot himself, he has some chance of relieving himself from this tyranny of others, by subjecting them to his own. In short, he finds himself, without his consent, so situated that, if he use the ballot, he may become a master; if he does not use it, he must become a slave. And he has no other alternative than these two. In self-defence, he attempts the former. His case is analogous to that of a man who has been forced into battle, where he must either kill others, or be killed himself. Because, to save his own life in battle, a man attempts to take the lives of his opponents, it is not to be inferred that the battle is one of his own choosing. Neither in contests with the ballot -- which is a mere substitute for a bullet -- because, as his only chance of self-preservation, a man uses a ballot, is it to be inferred that the contest is one into which he voluntarily entered; that he voluntarily set up all his own natural rights, as a stake against those of others, to be lost or won by the mere power of numbers. On the contrary, it is to be considered that, in an exigency, into which he had been forced by others, and in which no other means of self-defence offered, he, as a matter of necessity, used the only one that was left to him."

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    Its been my view for some time now, america is to large, 300m people is a lot of people for one man to be acountable for.
    Further more it seems to me that the large differences in opinion, Ideology and policy, has alot of negative and distruptive
    effects on the growth, the workflow and the respectfulnes of others.

    That said Im glad that one man ended up being Obama.

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    It probably seems really bizarre if you aren't from the U.S., but those differences in opinion/ideology etc are what actually creates change over here when the time is right. Americans take their right to dissent and voice their crazy opinions pretty seriously

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolbenito View Post
    It probably seems really bizarre if you aren't from the U.S., but those differences in opinion/ideology etc are what actually creates change over here when the time is right. Americans take their right to dissent and voice their crazy opinions pretty seriously
    Oh no, its not bizarre theres plenty of crazies and weird oppinions all over Europe , what im saying is that because america is so large, there is a bigger difference in people you get places like the bible belt and san fran. Places that are so different to eachother that they're in direct conflict of oppinion, I'm not gonna ramble on, it just seems dangerously chaotic.

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    Bush started two wars Obama ended one and is wrapping up the second


    Obama hasn't differed from Bush's timeline. He is using Bush's timeline for withdrawal. There is no difference between his timeline and Bush's timeline.

    He went into Libya as a coalition of nations against republicans who wanted it to be an american incursion

    What do you mean by coalition of nations? It was an incursion, either way. Bush, Obama, Romney, none of them believe in in non-intervention. They all have and will continue to do the exact same things when it comes to the middle east. There is no "party of peace".

    Provide examples of how democratic politicians are less rich than republican politicians.
    Of the top 50 richest members of congress 32 are republicans
    Look it up


    Of the top ten richest members of congress, seven are democratic. Look it up. That's why it's meaningless to attempt smear a politician as "rich". Theyre all fking rich.

    Describe how it matters to you if a president is white or not.
    This is just ignorant


    I have never understood how race always seems to play into all this, so you are probably right.

    Name one evangelical president.
    Garfield and Johnson were part of the Disciples of Christ


    Def not the expert on christianity here, but are all mainline protestant denominations evangelical now? I'll have to tell my mom.


    Name one evangelical CONGRESSMAN.
    There are two officially listed as Christian Evangelical
    Rep. Hartzler, Vicky (REP-MO-4th)
    Rep. Noem, Kristi (REP-SD-AL)
    but the number is higher because a lot of traditional christian groups are now evangelical


    Broad brushes. It is a misconception that republicans are mainly evangelical, just as it is a misconception that democrats are mainly atheists. The fact that there's one atheist congressman doesn't change that.

    Being uninformed is one thing. Being uninformed and passionate is something beyond my comprehension entirely.
    This applies to you too.

    I was mainly referring to the partisan rhetoric that bothers me, like "all republicnz r rich n want war n their white n old superstitious christieans lolz"

    because yea, if you think about it, all of that applies to both parties. And the sooner people start realizing that, the sooner we can get away from the "well at least I'm not voting for THEM" fear-mongering mentality.

    rrrrrr

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  34. #148
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    Stacybean, thanks for the article. Here's the thing, though. Yes, the overall costs might go up (a bad thing that needs to be addressed) but those costs get diferred to large insurance corporations that can afford it. The costs go up because the customers get 25% more care - more care than that conservative pundit asshole is quoted as saying "they need or is marginally useful". Like he's qualified as a doctor to say what patients require. In other words, it's a subsidy to poor and middle class families so they can finally afford the care they need and deserve. And the complaint that they'll have limited access to doctors ignores the fact that at least they'll have some access, which is better than no access under the previous system.

    Kamber wrote:
    "at the end of his first term, Clinton was showing a surplus of billions of dollars. Under Obama's first term, the deficit has doubled and spending has hit over 6 trillion dollars. Plus, Clinton was pretty successful in getting much of his agenda accomplished in his first term-- getting things like NAFTA passed. Obama, on the other hand, has been mostly reactive and failed to do simple things like closing Gitmo and trying jihadis in U.S. criminal courts-- largely do a load of NIMBYism from his fellow Democrats in NY State such as Chuck Shumer. And, I don't see how Obamacare or Obama has really done a dang thing for anyone suffering from a medically related bankruptcy during his first term!"

    Clinton was fortunate in that the state of the economy wasn't so bad off during his election, and the internet bubble grew all throughout. I don't think he can take much credit for that. The surplus stemmed from that bubble, and Clinton's willingness to cut spending, part of a compromise with republicans, who largely supported NAFTA as well. So that's why it was so easy to work with them on those issues. Clinton was basically a republican. Obama's spending is directly related to the mess he inherited from W, and I put more faith in his assertions to eventually halve the debt than I do in Romney's revenue neutral tax cuts. And Obamacare has 9 different components that will be phased in from now to 2020. It'll take time, but it will help people in the end. It's not ideal, but it was the best he could do as a compromise. I don't blame him, so much as the opposition.

    Last edited by TASmith; November 7th, 2012 at 12:56 PM.
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    "Obama Care" is virtually identical and in the same spirit as the Republican supported Individual Mandate from the 90s during Clinton's term. Romney implemented the same thing in his state while Governor. If the media didn't act like it has no record of this and no concept of what happened 4 - 8 - 12 years ago they wouldn't be able to play this game.

    Clinton was very active with the military. The Iraq War did not really start in '03, it started in 1990 and there was never much of a draw down for the Navy and Marines who continued to enforce no fly zones, seek and destroy targets of interest, clear mines, board ships etc. The US conducted several operations during Clinton's years as President in the gulf region alone the largest being Operation Desert Fox. That's not even counting Kosovo. He did reduce the size of the military, mostly by closing bases and decommissioning most of the nuclear powered ships that were going to be very expensive to overhaul.

    That great economy had nothing to do with Clinton or anyone in D.C. The internet was booming, tech production went way up, tech stocks made people rich overnight etc. People with no college education or formal training that had aptitude for working on computers got very good paying jobs where there were none previously. The only part government played in that was basically handing DARPANet over to civilians to manage. The next thing that pulls us out of a recession and gets the economy on a boom cycle will have virtually nothing to do with our government aside from maybe tax incentives to do it here instead of overseas.

    Last edited by Kolbenito; November 7th, 2012 at 01:39 PM.
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