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  1. #61
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    "I do not watch films I find offensive. I don't read books I find offensive."

    I do. Sometimes several times. Otherwise how do I know exactly how outraged to be?? Thats the Daily Mail way!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    "I do not watch films I find offensive. I don't read books I find offensive."

    I do. Sometimes several times. Otherwise how do I know exactly how outraged to be?? Thats the Daily Mail way!
    Well, one could make a good argument that you should watch and read things you find offensive, simply to ensure that you don't end up living in a comfortable but ignorant cocoon. But jeez, then I'd have to read stuff like the Bible, and watch soap operas and wrestling shows on TV. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorinji_Knight View Post
    We don't like socialism or communism because they equalize everyone to the point that you're not rewarded for working harder nor penalized for slacking. We're all for helping people when they're down, but we don't want a system that holds people down. That's what we proudly refer to as the American dream. It is the hope that through hard work and initiative we can build a better life for our families. Sure we're all a little jaded, but most of us still believe in the promise of a better tomorrow and are willing to work for it.
    To be honest it seems more to me that americans have been bombarded with so much anti socialism and communist propaganda since the cold war that there's a kind of inborn fear in everything related to the words since then. But even then, social democracy is a pretty far cry from all out commumism. I mean, you'll hear the same arguments against communism if you ask people around here.

    but we don't want a system that holds people down. That's what we proudly refer to as the American dream.
    Yet the system you have at the moment is the anti-thesis to that. It's said that in america everyone can be successful if they want. But looking at countries with a more socialistic structure it's much easier for anyone to "move up" in society and be successful if they want to.

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    The problem with actual communism is that it hasn't really worked anywhere it's been tried. And, it has led to large numbers of mass graves and wheelbarrows full of skulls.

    Surely, Karl Marx must be rolling in his grave about now considering the working conditions of the Chinese kids who make iPads for Americans and Europeans in yet another "workers' paradise."

    And the reason Commies aren't taken too seriously today: refer to Peta's campaign promises in my above post-- she wants to "seize the banks"(!)-- that's just crazy talk. . .

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    I would not say that it is the anti-thesis...

    The thing is right now the employment situation is pretty bad, so I can see where that impression comes from. However I know a lot of people that have made it, in fact more have than have not. They may not have made it so well as they would like, but to be middle class over here means to live pretty well. Even a lot of our poor are fat. We take for granted one of the highest living standards in the world. It is possible over here for an individual to amass enough wealth to rival world nations.

    One of the major problems over here at the moment is the drive to make everyone go to college. If everyone has a degree then it is the same as no one having one. Now we have companies demanding degrees for jobs that should require none. At the same time skilled labor is cheapened since it is so readily avalible. The fear is that soon McDonalds and their ilk will require a degree.

    Another major problem we have over here in the jobs market is illegal immigration. Don't get me wrong because I've worked in construction for many years and have many friends who aren't legal. It is though a fair statement to say that they take jobs from legal US residents. I have seen jobsites flooded with illegals. The companys that hire them sometimes pay them top dollar, because they still get them at half the price by avoiding all the taxes, workman's compensation, and other Issues. People say that they only take the jobs that no one else want, but that's just not true. Illegals aren't all nice honest people either, some actually are criminals... I've known a few.

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    "The problem with actual communism is that it hasn't really worked anywhere it's been tried. And, it has led to large numbers of mass graves and wheelbarrows full of skulls."

    We covered this already: "Communism is a superficially comprehensive theory of human behaviour that is based on flawed axioms and, if acted upon, would result in either failure or a hellishly unpleasant state of post-industrial feudalism."

    "What is vital for such a scheme, however, and what was always missing in the planned economies of our world's experience, is the continual, intimate and decisive participation of the mass of the citizenry in determining these goals, and designing as well as implementing the plans which should lead towards them."

    "Even a lot of our poor are fat. "

    Sounds great! Go America!

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    Marx would be horrified at the way communism turned out - it was meant to be based on the middle classes.

    Any one read In The Wet by Neville Shute? That had a novel way of voting - everyone had one, but you could gain extra votes for getting so far in education, giving something back to society. There was a maximum of 5 votes a person could earn. Not sure how it'd work in practice, but it would cut down the nutters.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    "The problem with actual communism is that it hasn't really worked anywhere it's been tried. And, it has led to large numbers of mass graves and wheelbarrows full of skulls."

    We covered this already: "Communism is a superficially comprehensive theory of human behaviour that is based on flawed axioms and, if acted upon, would result in either failure or a hellishly unpleasant state of post-industrial feudalism."

    "What is vital for such a scheme, however, and what was always missing in the planned economies of our world's experience, is the continual, intimate and decisive participation of the mass of the citizenry in determining these goals, and designing as well as implementing the plans which should lead towards them."

    "Even a lot of our poor are fat. "

    Sounds great! Go America!
    Hey VK, thought the Stross quote was a dig at Libertarianism! Which, I'm not sure has been tried anywhere.

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    Even a lot of our poor are fat.
    Actually, the main reason for that is that if you're above a certain level of poverty, a lot of fat food is the most expensive food you can afford. Which in itself is a problem.

    But sure. Compared to some parts of the world even being below the standard of living in the western world makes you fortunate. I'm sure most bums live healthier lives than a lot of people in the third world. But does that really mean we should be content with "not good enough, but I'll get by", when there's something to be done about it?

    As for the rest... Sure, those are legitimate issues, which I think are more or less common all over the western world. But it's kind of besides the point I was making.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tobbA View Post
    Actually, the main reason for that is that if you're above a certain level of poverty, a lot of fat food is the most expensive food you can afford. Which in itself is a problem.

    But sure. Compared to some parts of the world even being below the standard of living in the western world makes you fortunate. I'm sure most bums live healthier lives than a lot of people in the third world. But does that really mean we should be content with "not good enough, but I'll get by", when there's something to be done about it?

    As for the rest... Sure, those are legitimate issues, which I think are more or less common all over the western world. But it's kind of besides the point I was making.
    I was just using those points to explain why we're having a jobs crisis over here. Just so I'm clear... My contention is we don't currently have good economic mobility because of the job crisis not because of a lack of "socialistic structure". The only real support I have for this preposition is our record during better times.

    I'm not arguing that we have a great system. I freely acknowledge that it has flaws like every other world government. I do however believe that while the ideologies of socialism and even communism are aimed at creating a greater good, they cannot work as long as there is greed. Corruption turns ideals designed for good into the practice of evil. That is why most Americans do not embrace either socialism or communism.

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    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

    -C.S. Lewis

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    "The insane war on drugs seems to be mostly an American export that they now ram down everybody's throats"

    Sorry!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    "The insane war on drugs seems to be mostly an American export that they now ram down everybody's throats"

    Sorry!
    I suppose we expected to be "greeted as liberators."

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    . I do however believe that while the ideologies of socialism and even communism are aimed at creating a greater good, they cannot work as long as there is greed.
    Which is exactly the problem with a capitalistic system. It cannot work as long as there is greed. If everyone was altruistic, throwing their money around everywhere and trying to improve the well being of everybody else, then sure, capitalism would be great. However, that's not how the world works. Which is why you need a system that promotes this kind of cooperation. Lessening the value and importance of getting rich and "making it" will in fact also lessen the greed. Because the reward for being greedy is also lessened.

    Corruption turns ideals designed for good into the practice of evil.
    Well, yes. That's the definition of corruption. What's that got to do with anything?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stacybean View Post
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

    -C.S. Lewis
    I wonder if Syrians agree. Erm, I mean Americans. Americans.

    Kamber you are right it said communism and libertarianism etc.

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    The only part I hate about the socialism stigma is the dent it puts in any plans for a universal type healthcare. Because the healthcare now is fucking pathetic. Pay out the ass for care which is a complete tossup whether you get good care or terrible care which could flat out kill you if you don't know any better.

    Healthcare is one of the few things I think should not be a privileged in some countries the damn internet is a right but making sure people aren't dying in their own country isn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Spot View Post
    Marx would be horrified at the way communism turned out - it was meant to be based on the middle classes.
    I wonder if he would have been pragmatic enough to note the errors of the Soviet communists, and to suggest remedies?

    As far as I can work out, even rightwingish sociologists are of the opinion that Marx was correct in much of his diagnosis of the ills of society. They aren't always too enthusiastic about his proposed remedies.

    The problem is that, despite subjects like political "science," politics is one field where humans remain pretty much mired in medieval thought, in that we tend to put ideology before everything else. Politics should be a real science, based on observation and experimentation. If you think the economy will be improved by, say, nationalizing all the mines, then nationalize all the mines under carefully controlled conditions, monitor the effects carefully, and see if it works or not. If it works, it works, whatever your ideology says. If it doesn't, privatize the mines again.

    Ideally, the voting public will base their vote on how effectively and in how rational a way governments go about this sort of experimentation, rather than on whether a particular policy worked or not. Here in South Africa, our biggest problem at the moment isn't that our government's policies are all wrong-headed. Some of them probably are; many are not. But the government is corrupt and utterly inefficient in implementing any of its grand schemes. Thus it seems to me that within reasonable limits, it actually doesn't matter all that much what policies a government follows, as long as it can implement them effectively and is flexible about changing them if necessary.

    Alas, most of our politicians (and most politicians all over the planet), and most of the voting public (and I may well be as guilty here as anyone else), look at everything through spectacles that are so heavily tinted by their pet ideologies that they simply cannot see the world clearly.

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    Back to da arection. . .

    Here're interesting portraits of Romney and Obama:

    http://video.pbs.org/video/2288869682

    Yeah. . . yeah. . . it's from that "socialist" PBS. . .

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    Interesting seeing clips and debates from early in their political careers (Well only Romneys so far in the video, not that far into it).

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    Heres the BBC's Andrew Marr on Obama and the differences between this election and the one before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Marr
    "Barack Obama was sworn in as president of the United States on the "audacity of hope" but four years on, the great orator - fuelled by such bold optimism and grand promises - appears to have been replaced by a very different man, says Andrew Marr.

    ..We set out for Chicago, Washington and New York with a simple question: what happened to hope?
    Was it that the 2008 financial crash and the threat of a second Depression just blew away the optimism?

    Was it his own impossible promises, combined with inexperience? Was it endemic failure in the US political system? Or raw Republican enmity?"

    ....


    This is a great country which is losing its economic dominance and has not found any kind of consensus about how it might be recovered. Politicians have loaded the country with debt, much of it now owned by China.

    Tough choices have been avoided. As Sachs pointed out, a thicket of dense, semi-corrupt relationships between big money and politics has overgrown Washington.

    Meanwhile, increasingly, Americans live in their own separate liberal and conservative worlds, listening to different media, barely conversing. Instead of steering the ship, the crew are throwing punches.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20168393

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFierce View Post
    Interesting seeing clips and debates from early in their political careers (Well only Romneys so far in the video, not that far into it).
    It's interesting to see how that quintessential Liberal Democrat, Ted Kennedy, basically handed Romney his own ass in that exchange over healthcare in Romney's ill-fated Senate run. Problem being? Romney couldn't articulate any specifics or hard numbers in re his "plan."

    To date in the Presidential run, that's also been a critique of Romney-- he's pretty short on details.

    Nowadays, as someone I can't remember stated: "Out of 315 Million Americans, the RNC picked the one guy who can't run against Obamacare. . ." Considering, as many critics on the Left have pointed out, Obamacare is basically Romneycare applied on a Federal level.

    And, Romney, being the father of the "individual mandate," has pretty much shot himself in the foot in re many conservatives. But, as you'll see from the video, the "individual mandate" actually has its roots in the conservative think tank the Heritage Foundation!

    But, of course this gives evidence to the idea that Obama has actually governed the U.S. from a "center right" stance which greatly pisses off the American Left over his failure to secure some sort of Canadian style "single payer" system.

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    Romneys running on the So Youre Sick of All the Problems Barack Obama Invented like How Youre Poor Now and Shit, Vote for Some New Guy ticket.
    he'll be just as useless as Obama, flying death robots abroad, squabbling and frustration at home, the whole system seems broken.

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    The squabbling at home is what happens when your society is a melting pot of the world and everyone has a view they are trying to express. When Americans are unified on something that is when the shit hits the fan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    It's interesting to see how that quintessential Liberal Democrat, Ted Kennedy, basically handed Romney his own ass in that exchange over healthcare in Romney's ill-fated Senate run. Problem being? Romney couldn't articulate any specifics or hard numbers in re his "plan."

    To date in the Presidential run, that's also been a critique of Romney-- he's pretty short on details.

    Nowadays, as someone I can't remember stated: "Out of 315 Million Americans, the RNC picked the one guy who can't run against Obamacare. . ." Considering, as many critics on the Left have pointed out, Obamacare is basically Romneycare applied on a Federal level.

    And, Romney, being the father of the "individual mandate," has pretty much shot himself in the foot in re many conservatives. But, as you'll see from the video, the "individual mandate" actually has its roots in the conservative think tank the Heritage Foundation!

    But, of course this gives evidence to the idea that Obama has actually governed the U.S. from a "center right" stance which greatly pisses off the American Left over his failure to secure some sort of Canadian style "single payer" system.
    What gets me is the republicans have had six terms to prove their trickle down economics work but they've completely failed causing a recession in every instance. The only bright spot in the last 30 + years was Clinton who balanced the budget and left a surplus and had the greatest numbers for job creation and the lowest unemployment rates.

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    Normally I don't express political views anymore because it starts up debates and I just frankly don't care as much anymore. I still say it's a douche vs a turdsandwich as southpark had it pretty much spot on.


    The one thing I will say is that video and the whole "Bain revolutionizing industry" little section just kind of proves my viewpoint. The guys companys entire purpose was making companies 'efficient'. He fired god knows how many people from these companies and I don't know Bains history but I would bet anything they were ridiculously quick on the gun to outsourcing labor overseas because their entire purpose was profits.

    It went into how this mentality 'got rid of' the golfing buddy type ceo. They thought they were heroes type of thing. But now what do we have? CEO's that do things like raise their pensions and completely remove their employees instead. Hey since our profits are up lets bump up our exec bonus's.



    Simply how can you run on the campaign of job growth when you spawned that kind of shit. It's the complete opposite. But then again Romney changes his stances every day. Whatever gets votes I guess. Just this flip flopping alone means you can't trust a word he says *shrugs*.

    There's so many videos I'll just pick one at random they all make the point.



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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    What gets me is the republicans have had six terms to prove their trickle down economics work but they've completely failed causing a recession in every instance. The only bright spot in the last 30 + years was Clinton who balanced the budget and left a surplus and had the greatest numbers for job creation and the lowest unemployment rates.
    The Democrats have become the party of Big Government. And, the Republicans have become the party of Big Business. Neither growing the government nor fattening up big business seem to be in the best interest of the middle classes.

    But, it's kind of what we're stuck with, politically.

    In the first case, it's the Democrats "Keynesian Economics" of spending us into prosperity. In the second case, it's your described "trickle down" idea of the Republicans where, supposedly, if the ultra-rich get tax cuts it'll free up money they will magically use to "create jobs."

    It doesn't seem that either ploy works very well.

    Clinton may have been a morally weak, self-serving scoundrel, but he was a pretty effective politician. Obama's pretty much squandered four years in not being able to "reach across the aisle" and get things done in the manner of Clinton. His greatest asset at this point, politically, has been the RNC's choice of Romney as their candidate!

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    Over all David Icke's perpective is right. All governments turn against their citizens. Why?
    Help yourself. It's around nine hours of presentation.

    David Icke – Remember Who You Are (Wembley Arena London 10-27-2012)

    http://vimeo.com/52527314

    http://vimeo.com/52527312

    http://vimeo.com/52527313

    http://vimeo.com/52527315

    Last edited by k2mountain; November 4th, 2012 at 10:54 PM.
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  40. #88
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    I haven't heard that name in ages..... ... ... but.... .... ... isn't that the same guy that spouts crap about reptilian shape shifters controlling the world and such conspiracies?

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    "Over all David Icke's perpective is right."

    haha no it isnt.

    its interesting how Clinton is rememebered. i was in Kansas during the Clinton years, and travelled to both coasts from that central spot through middle America, and the country felt confident and optimistic, long before the nightmare and collective insanity of 911.
    But how much can Clinton really be held responsible for the economic boom that was happening at the time?

    Clinton also bombed the shit out of Kosovo remember too. A just war perhaps but it still killed hundreds of bystanders by accident..

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  42. #90
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    This is pretty interesting: Views on the elections from correspondants around the world.

    Latin America

    http://opendemocracy.net/jorge-heine...-latin-america

    Germany

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/brigitt...ntial-election

    Kenya

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/alan-e-...an-perspective

    and from many other places round the world

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/freefor...ooks-from-here

    I think this reflects many global citizens views on the election in general

    Quote Originally Posted by India
    Indians are puzzled by the electoral system, which is so difficult to understand. The electoral college vote prevailing over the popular vote and the holding of elections on a working day instead of a weekend do not make sense. Indians are perplexed by the American obsession for issues such as abortion and same-sex relationships. They are amazed by the strength of the gun lobby despite the hundreds of killings of innocent people in high schools and college campus and shopping centers caused by the free availability of guns. Indians are frustrated with their own political leaders and parties who sacrifice national interests for the sake of winning elections by pandering to narrow communitarian and group interests. They are depressed by the fact that even in a mature democracy like the US, the Democrats and the Republicans make similar style decisions. Obama's victory in the last election was an inspiration for India's large and diverse democracy. The fact that an inexperienced, young middle class African-American outsider could challenge the system and win the election to become the President renewed the confidence in the authenticity of the American democratic system. The bottom-up grassroots mobilization of support using the power of Internet by Obama was remarkable.
    I thought this part of the German one gave a very good breakdown of most Europeans attitudes to the Republicans:

    Quote Originally Posted by germany
    "Germans still remember the tensions around the contested US invasion of Iraq, then US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld’s arrogant depiction of Germany and France as “old Europe”, and President George W. Bush’s missionary speeches justifying his War on Terror. Their disapproval of the current Republican presidential nominee might therefore to a large extent be rooted in the bad reputation of the Republican Party. Due to constant negative media portrayal of the Tea Party Movement and individual figures like George W. Bush, Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, Rick Santorum, and Newt Gingrich, the German public associates the Republican Party mainly with right-wing politicians of the ideologically-extreme, culturally-conservative, religiously-fundamentalist or populist sort. Conservative fanaticism of the type that periodically erupts during anti-abortion or pro-death penalty manifestations alienates German observers. The fierce opposition of Republicans against Obamacare is hardly comprehensible for the citizens of the country that first invented social security programs almost 130 years ago. In turn, Obama’s struggle against social inequality caters to the social-democratic mentality of the German populace.

    Aside from the negative image of his party, Germans view Mitt Romney with unease not only due to his former occupation as an investment banker, his affluence, the tax evasion allegations raised against him, or his strange religious affiliation. His changes of position on issues like abortion or healthcare are frequently referred to in the news and make him appear as opportunistic and unprincipled."


    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; November 5th, 2012 at 08:12 AM.
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