Critique from "Lower Levels"
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    Critique from "Lower Levels"

    Hello all who see this.
    forgive me if this has been posted before. A quick hotword search with "critique" would probably show the answer I am looking for,
    But I will also use this opportunity to say hello and as I will be here for the long haul.

    Basically I just wanted to ask people's opinions on receiving thoughtful critique from artists they deem at a lower skill level to themselves.
    Being on here I always try and do more than just give ass pats to the higher tiers which in its own right, are good for artists as well.
    It can be hard as it's quite easy to get blinded by a show of great draftsmanship that you fail to see the errors in the work you are viewing, but on the occassion
    where critique is asked for, I try my best. However I personally feel out of place when critiquing a piece of work I know I could not do.
    An example would be like a white belt in Karate, commenting on a black belts movement. The black belt is the one who has been putting in the hard work the longest
    so what does this newbie fresh off the boat know.
    that is how I feel the higher tiers feel when I comment on their work sometimes.

    Me personally I am all ears to critique from people who may not be as good as me; you can learn from new comers as well as from higher tiers.
    again with reference to martial arts the white belt may notice a slight error in movement that the higher belt is not correcting and can point it out, because he is being drilled on that specific movement. you learn things through reading that someone who is higher than you may not have come across.

    hmmm I'm hoping my clarity in typing is better than my clarity in speech as I feel somewhat that this can confuse.

    do you welcome thoughtful critique from all levels? do you feel a critique from a lower level although a kind gesture, is futile because you already know the flaws?
    are you appreciative of this attempt at critique or are you like "Your art is whack jack, get outta here~ you don't know shit.

    hmmmmmmm I will continue in my efforts to be more than just an asspatter anyway (unless you got a big ol' ass lol I joke i joke) but just curious on the thoughts of others if they take offence.

    -Luther

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    Quote Originally Posted by luthertaylor View Post
    Hello all who see this.
    forgive me if this has been posted before. A quick hotword search with "critique" would probably show the answer I am looking for,
    But I will also use this opportunity to say hello and as I will be here for the long haul.

    Basically I just wanted to ask people's opinions on receiving thoughtful critique from artists they deem at a lower skill level to themselves.
    Being on here I always try and do more than just give ass pats to the higher tiers which in its own right, are good for artists as well.
    It can be hard as it's quite easy to get blinded by a show of great draftsmanship that you fail to see the errors in the work you are viewing, but on the occassion
    where critique is asked for, I try my best. However I personally feel out of place when critiquing a piece of work I know I could not do.
    An example would be like a white belt in Karate, commenting on a black belts movement. The black belt is the one who has been putting in the hard work the longest
    so what does this newbie fresh off the boat know.
    that is how I feel the higher tiers feel when I comment on their work sometimes.

    Me personally I am all ears to critique from people who may not be as good as me; you can learn from new comers as well as from higher tiers.
    again with reference to martial arts the white belt may notice a slight error in movement that the higher belt is not correcting and can point it out, because he is being drilled on that specific movement. you learn things through reading that someone who is higher than you may not have come across.

    hmmm I'm hoping my clarity in typing is better than my clarity in speech as I feel somewhat that this can confuse.

    do you welcome thoughtful critique from all levels? do you feel a critique from a lower level although a kind gesture, is futile because you already know the flaws?
    are you appreciative of this attempt at critique or are you like "Your art is whack jack, get outta here~ you don't know shit.

    hmmmmmmm I will continue in my efforts to be more than just an asspatter anyway (unless you got a big ol' ass lol I joke i joke) but just curious on the thoughts of others if they take offence.

    -Luther
    Well. . .

    I have no acting ability. And, I've never directed a Hollywood movie.

    But, I'm pretty sure that anything with Adam Sandler in it has pretty much sucked ass!

    How's that for metaphor regarding what you're shooting at?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    Well. . .

    I have no acting ability. And, I've never directed a Hollywood movie.

    But, I'm pretty sure that anything with Adam Sandler in it has pretty much sucked ass!

    How's that for metaphor regarding what you're shooting at?
    I liked Mr Deeds.

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    Well, at one point of time I felt really insecure about giving constructive criticism because I don't know much. Kind of like "I don't deserve or have the credentials to criticize this person's work" or "I don't know enough to teach other people because I'm afraid I'll push them in the wrong direction." I welcome critique from all levels if their critique is justified and not just nit-picking. Even I don't have people nit-picking on my stuff; they usually just push me in the right direction of what studies to try or techniques I should learn about.

    So no matter what, the critique has to be justified. Look at the body of their work, and if you see something that's wrong with the majority of the drawings(recent drawings), point that out. And if the criticizer's skill level is below the recipient, they shouldn't try to tell him how to fix the problem(unless the person criticizing absolutely has experienced the solution working for artists, or has suggested a method popularized by another more experienced artist). The more experienced artist will most likely be able to find a solution for himself if the the less-experience criticizer doesn't have one for him. The moment a criticism turns sour is when it starts to suggest a wrong, or uninformed way to fix something. So I believe as long as you don't try to come off better than you actually are, or smarter than you actually are, or more experienced than you actually are, then your criticism will be perfectly accepted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Star Eater View Post
    I liked Mr Deeds.
    Admitted. I have a pretty huge bias against stuff with SNL staff that have made it to Hollywood!

    Along the same lines, I really haven't found SNL funny in years.

    (Even though Lorne Michaels has WAY more experience than me in, well. . . producing SNL!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by luthertaylor View Post
    Hello all who see this.
    forgive me if this has been posted before. A quick hotword search with "critique" would probably show the answer I am looking for,
    But I will also use this opportunity to say hello and as I will be here for the long haul.

    Basically I just wanted to ask people's opinions on receiving thoughtful critique from artists they deem at a lower skill level to themselves.
    Being on here I always try and do more than just give ass pats to the higher tiers which in its own right, are good for artists as well.
    It can be hard as it's quite easy to get blinded by a show of great draftsmanship that you fail to see the errors in the work you are viewing, but on the occassion
    where critique is asked for, I try my best. However I personally feel out of place when critiquing a piece of work I know I could not do.
    An example would be like a white belt in Karate, commenting on a black belts movement. The black belt is the one who has been putting in the hard work the longest
    so what does this newbie fresh off the boat know.
    that is how I feel the higher tiers feel when I comment on their work sometimes.

    Me personally I am all ears to critique from people who may not be as good as me; you can learn from new comers as well as from higher tiers.
    again with reference to martial arts the white belt may notice a slight error in movement that the higher belt is not correcting and can point it out, because he is being drilled on that specific movement. you learn things through reading that someone who is higher than you may not have come across.

    hmmm I'm hoping my clarity in typing is better than my clarity in speech as I feel somewhat that this can confuse.

    do you welcome thoughtful critique from all levels? do you feel a critique from a lower level although a kind gesture, is futile because you already know the flaws?
    are you appreciative of this attempt at critique or are you like "Your art is whack jack, get outta here~ you don't know shit.

    hmmmmmmm I will continue in my efforts to be more than just an asspatter anyway (unless you got a big ol' ass lol I joke i joke) but just curious on the thoughts of others if they take offence.

    -Luther
    Ive felt the same way and sometimes I still do. The thing alot of people forget about critique is that it doesnt always have to be pointing out whats wrong or what can improve it. Sometimes you do see something that you believe is awesome and you can see any thing you would do to improve it. Sometimes you can just tell those people what you think makes that piece work so well (going into detail here you also learn something). As for the sketchbooks here, sometimes I dont have anything I can offer personally for a particular piece but when it comes to their art as a whole I can offer a helpful link, related to something they said or that I have found helpful in my art journey. I love getting stuff like that I might have never found, even if its not a tutorial or how to but an artist who does similar subjects etc /ramble. Alright. Good luck!

    Ps: most people are higher lvl then me ^^;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    Well. . .

    I have no acting ability. And, I've never directed a Hollywood movie.

    But, I'm pretty sure that anything with Adam Sandler in it has pretty much sucked ass!

    How's that for metaphor regarding what you're shooting at?
    LOOL Golden response! xD I suppose in that respect you don't necessarily need to be clued up on something to know whether you like it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nexuun View Post
    Well, at one point of time I fe...
    I really liked your response dude, thank you very much for replying!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wingal View Post
    Ive felt the same way and som...
    You have given me a new thing to do instead of just ass patting! I should also actually describe what I believe makes the piece so strong! thank you for making me see things from that angle and for the handy tip! I agree pointing things out in others work will help you in the process.
    thank you for posting

    If I happen to comment on your sketchbook, please don't feel obliged to comment on mine. use that time instead to get back to work.

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    I agree with what people said,
    accept all critiques but question the ones that just don't make any sense, then try to make sense of what they are trying to convey.
    for example if someone posts the image on the left and asks for critique on composition, proportions, etc, then a 'lower tier' beginner comes in and says "your perspective is all wrong because your lines are supposes to go to the horizon, a 1x1x1 box should look like the one on the right", I would not take that persons advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luthertaylor View Post
    LOOL Golden response! xD I suppose in that respect you don't necessarily need to be clued up on something to know whether you like it or not.


    I really liked your response dude, thank you very much for replying!


    You have given me a new thing to do instead of just ass patting! I should also actually describe what I believe makes the piece so strong! thank you for making me see things from that angle and for the handy tip! I agree pointing things out in others work will help you in the process.
    thank you for posting
    But, Hey! Sandler could be a friggin' genius and I'm like:



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    But, Hey! Sandler could be a friggin' genius and I'm like:
    Well, there it is! :-) One of my all-time favourite films.

    As to the OP's question, I think it depends. Some aspects of art are open to critique by anyone and everyone. You don't need to be an artistic genius to know, for example, whether you understand what the artist is trying to convey, and if you don't, then perhaps the artist has not been successful (at least if it was his intention that anyone should be able to understand his work).

    On the other hand, I would never presume to critique, for example, a professional artist's technique. At least not as long as my own ability sucks. Thus I may say "I don't quite get this piece" or "I find your colours too garish to my liking" but you would never hear me say "You got your anatomy all wrong," because chances are I wouldn't even notice it and even if I did, I would have no idea how to improve it.

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    To be honest, I hate giving critique full stop. I still sometimes do but I always get worried it may be taken the wrong way.

    I just never know what to write other than, "your anatomy sucks, start again"

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    There's two types of critiques (for this discussion). One is from the view of the artist to another, focusing on elements of creating a successful product. The other comes from the audience/consumer, whose viewpoint deals less with the actual process of the product, and more with it's appeal and impact; "I liked this because of..." And even some critiques contain that aspect but still concern its main focus on the process. A person of "lesser skill" has more ability in the consumer end and is trying to develop the understanding of the process.

    Last edited by OmenSpirits; November 23rd, 2012 at 11:38 PM.
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    It's usually easier to see flaws than to draw. For example human faces: We are so trained on reading all the nuances in other peoples expressions that we'll notice immediately if something in a portrait isn't as it should be, even if we couldn't draw a perfect face ourself. I'd guess the main difference is that experienced people can pin-point the error more easily and give suggestions on how to improve, while beginners sometimes can only say that something's wrong, not explain it.
    ...and total agreement to what *jodali said

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    People are really good at spotting when things are off, not necessarily color or composition but structure and symmetry. A person who has never been 50 ft from a Horse can tell you when a drawing of one isn't working.

    I'm a know nothing newb myself, so I know that feeling of being completely unworthy to comment. In any case I think artist to artist critiques should always be given and received with the intention of improvement. Unfortunately I think there are people who just delight in tearing shit apart for the enjoyment of doing so. From what I understand this is pretty descriptive of some terrible art teachers and assorted horror stories. Recognize those people when you come across them and dismiss them immediately imo.

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    I love any kind of thoughtful critique because it means someone actually took the time to help, regardless of their skill level. These days on most virtual venues, it's easy to close the tab or leave a two-word comment "It's awesome"- "Cool pic, I like". It's an extra effort for someone to actually write a neat line or paragraph and point out weaknesses/strengths. It's difficult to make people care. Also because critics share with your something that they learned, it could be something they understood after a lot of practice/observation. They might not be the best artists, but they do know when anatomy is off or the trees look wrong. So yes, critique makes me happy, does not matter where it comes from.

    ofc, there is the exception of the trolls who just want to piss people off.

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    Going back to the perspective example - I would not take that artists advice because they obviously don't realize that perspective can be applied to a viewpoint in.. perhaps infinite ways?

    As for lesser skilled artists critiquing - Depends on what is being critiqued. Level of realism? Sure, go ahead. Anything technical, it may be best to sit back and learn how the "advanced artist" did the work.

    There IS, in my opinion, perhaps one leverage point - if the less experienced artist is paying the advanced artist for the work. If you're someone's boss, you can say how you want the work. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but still.

    Last edited by hitnrun; December 29th, 2012 at 12:14 AM.
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    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

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    LOOL @KAMBER proper ripping into Sandler xD
    Truly some Top quality response in this thread! Thank you all who took the time to comment back. Without a doubt, it has given me the knowledge to push my ability to critique further! and even deepen my understanding of what it means to "Critique".
    I think something like this is essential in learning if we are to keep the quality of Conceptart strong, rather than another "Asspat Central" which is good for stroking egos but doesn't offer much in people who would like a lot more feedback from their work.

    Thank you all once again! I believe I have required what I need from the answers NOW GET BACK TO WORK! *cracks whip*

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    The reception and usefulness of a critique depends on so many factors it is hard not to generalize. I often find critique to be most valuable from two very different groups - my peers and my potential market/collectors (non-artists or "laymen"). I highly value feedback, reactions and observations about my work from people who have no artistic ability. When it comes to specific, technical issues I highly value observations from peers and mentors.

    I wrote a bit about getting value from critiques over in the WIPs section, might find it helpful: Critiques.

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    It is something I struggle with it aswell
    Sometimes I don't know which critic or opinion I should believe the most, the ones from my parents (that don't know anything about art), or the ones from the teachers at school (which are artists themselves and on a higher level). And in this case we are not talking about mistakes, but about detailed and not detailed, composition and the subject.
    Sometimes I think I'm become arogant because I tend to be harsh on other people with my critics. mostly thigns I learnt at school (where I got critic at, things I changed and see that other people are making thee 'mistakes' aswell. It is mostly about composition color, depth,..)
    I also tend to not listen to the meaning of someone who doesn't know anything about art... because they just find everything beautiful because they can't do it theirselves. And they tend to like detailed drawings more then rougher work.
    On the other hand... Who speaks the truth? Is art a matter of opinion and taste, or does there exist something like a collective taste

    Last edited by xNatje; November 1st, 2012 at 11:54 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolbenito View Post
    People are really good at spotting when things are off, not necessarily color or composition but structure and symmetry. A person who has never been 50 ft from a Horse can tell you when a drawing of one isn't working.
    I think this is why figure drawing is such a useful learning tool: one can immediately see if something isn't right.

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    You learn to filter critiques the more you get them. Critique doesn't mean you have to automatically assume someones word is correct but at the same time it doesn't mean you should just ignore it completely. Give it some thought and see if it makes sense. If multiple people start saying the same thing though then give it a bit more serious thought.

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