Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 911" / Also 911 Road to Tyranny!!! - Page 5

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  1. #121
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    http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-07-25-1.html

    Read the whole thing. It's quite interesting. And no it's not propaganda or anything. It makes you think. Or at least, it makes me think.

    Don't just practice. Also Practice the right things, the right way.
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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalecracker
    Yes, I think he has and is doing a good job.
    Can you site some specific examples of why you think that? I wanna hear what you have to say.

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  4. #123
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    Alrighty.. you like the guy, lets get some reasons. Lets try something policy driven. Maybe address your like of particular programs or initiatives taken. Try to site the program, such as the No Child Left Behind program. I'd really be interested in knowing some point-by-point breakdown of why you are fond of him. Maybe you are completely legitimized in your favoring; maybe you'll convert a few doubters, but let's get some reasons related to policy.

    I can list program by program what I dislike, I'd like to see you do just the same for what you do like, I would find that extremely interesting.

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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  5. #124
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    Wow, that article did make me think.... It makes me think that Orson Scott Card is more of a nimrod than I ever knew, how disappointing. To make the comparison that the circumstances that drove Lincoln were anywhere near similar to what has driven Bush is outrageous. It indeed was a very interesting article, and very persuasive if one takes its vague assertions as history. I can hem and haw about the differences in circumstance, policy, and driving personal loyalties, but one might take a look at a book by Mario Cuomo, called "Why Lincoln Matters : Today More Than Ever" You may find a very different argument in there, something to counteract this particular article so that a center might be found. Again, this article was fascinating, and I think has some interesting points which can act as reason to reconsider a negative stance on Bush. I, at moments, felt swayed. However I don't think this article takes certain underlying historical truths into account. I think there are significant generalizations that don't address the nuances of the time, the events, or the persons involved. Interesting read though.

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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  6. #125
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    My view is a skewed one of Bush, I fence ride and prolly will right up to polls and prolly will vote Bush. More along the reason of personal issues than what He and Company have done. What I mean is along the lines of standard Reb. policy, a Candidate who is not prochoice to some extent, not pro-gay and pro gun control. Many things Dubya has done really bothers me, and not protecting American jobs from drifting overseas by the thousands is one.

    I noticed in Kerry’s speech the other night, he boasted of creating and exploring new forms of energy, but did not say how, he talked about limiting big business from its perch of authority and at the same time talked about stimulating the avenues for stock market investments? I thought his speech writers did ok, but it was all a typical political speech, and what I mean is, a nebulous approach that can’t fully grasp what, where or how he is going to do what he is to do and so on…….

    He talks about getting soldiers home soon, but leaving a stable Iraq too, this is so stupid it is almost funny, whether he or Bush gets in office, Iraq will never be stable, it will be a pisshole for killers, radicals, mercenaries & religious freaks for yrs to come.

    Thus, this brings me to has Bush done a good job? It is hard to tell, the Dems blamed him for a faltering economy right off, even though leading economic indicators already showed we were slumping down quick. Then 911 and we went into two wars in two countries I don’t care much about. It was like a rolling snowball effect and now frosty the snowman has gotten a little big for his breeches. I think we need to put on the brakes before invading Iran.

    But one thing haunts me at the back of my mind, what if the Bush policies were right and we did the right thing by spear pointing Terrorists and thwarting their plans? What if we’d laid back like old women after 911, like some think we should have and then one of our major cities was hit with a suitcase nuke & millions were killed. What if?

    Hard questions.

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  7. #126
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    Whelp, I can list here's a list of reasons not to vote for Bush again:

    No Child Left behind, based on a failed Texas education reform.
    Removal from the Kyoto accords Global Warming.
    Allowing heavier logging and drilling in National Parks.
    Enacting special tax exemptions for SUVs to be classified as Trucks as to allow for relaxed emission standards.
    The tax cut for the wealthiest in the nation.
    The prescription drug program which was sought by the major pharmaceuticals.
    Limitation of Stem Cell research.
    Creation of Faith Based social services instead of allotting money towards genuine urban renewal or social benefits.
    Helping to limit the rights of plaintiffs against HMO's.
    Providing far below the minimum needed funding for AIDS prevention in Africa.
    Cutting aid to nations that to not advocate abstinence-only AIDS prevention
    Not being astute enough to take the warnings of terrorism seriously prior to 9/11 (this is debatable)
    Squandering worldwide respect and sympathy for America post 9/11
    Waging needless war, based on lies against a sovereign nation that was of no threat.

    There's oh so much more..

    Sooo.. I can't say Kerry's speech was extremely descriptive either, however if you ever listen to the bulk of his stump speech on CSPAN he explains a bit better. You can probably log on to JohnKerry.com and get some semblance of an answer. I could also argue that the issues you state as reasons to stay with the Republican Party aren't terribly important issues. In my opinion the most real issue is that of economic equality and opportunity. We can shout until our faces are blue about issues such as abortion, but argument won't change ethical predisposition. However, the issues that are of greater importance, at least in terms of effecting people on a very personal level are economic ones. I disagree with Bush?s entire stance on those particular issues. So all I can do is just ask you to look at a different part of the debate, instead of looking at issues that don't very much differ with each candidate, take gun control and gay marriage. Plech.. I don't want to turn this into a moral debate so let's not even take a swing at abortion. But I would argue that the particular issues that differ vastly according to the respective candidates in terms of economic policy are much more relevant to your life than the moral issues. Just a thought. Most of what you listed as reasons to vote for Bush are fairly divisive subjects meant to polarize and lump people into a base which will be a default solid hold for that particular party, ignoring some more pressing issues at hand. Both parties do it. I just think that what some politicians and parties support in order to form wedge issues distracts from the more relevant differences exhibited by candidates. Some particular wedge issues are race, religion, guns, gays, etc. Well, nothing is going to change anyone?s thoughts on those particular issues, so maybe we have to look to what is flexible, such as economic policy, which effects people in a more concrete way, even day to day. Ugh, it's late and I'm not coherent.

    But I think that whole, "what if we had laid down after 9/11" thing is a bit silly. I don't think anyone was suggesting that. Anyone opposed to the war in Afghanistan, which was kept largely secret, was simply opposed to bombing the tar out of innocent people that could do nothing to stop elements inside their country who weren?t even technically in charge. What I and some of my compatriots suggested was to find the real source of such terror, namely funding. The sources of such funding are what require military action in my opinion, equally with action against specific militant groups. Military or maybe paramilitary options are of course warranted when needing to round up actual offenders, I'm not debating that, justice must be served, but try attacking the cause and not just the symptom. Half of the reason such people as Islamic fundamentalists hate us is because of policies that we either directly engage in or support that effects their culture and populations. Maybe we as a nation can look at those policies and reevaluate their consequences. Half of the problems causing such rage against us originate from the policies of our government carried out for half a century against their people, no wonder they?re pissed. The other half of the war on terror in my opinion should be HEAVY reinforcement of domestic systems such as infrastructure, police, first response, port security and other measures to be enacted within the nation itself. Also intelligence should be beefed up, and military intervention should be provided by an international task force, be it NATO or some sort of coalition that?s not just willing, but effective and equally comprised of other nations. Remember that the whole world views us as having wasted an enormous opportunity after 9/11. The rest of the world stood in solidarity, but we threw that out the window when we invaded Iraq. That alone is HUGELY important to a global war on terror. We cannot possibly maintain such a struggle ourselves, and we need heavy players such as France, Germany, Russia, etc, regardless of how we may think that we don't.

    I have no doubt that any person in the place of Bush would have acted with equal or greater grace-under-pressure. Regardless of anyone?s thoughts of Al Gore, anything equal to or above that knee-jerk reaction of a response in Afghanistan would have been carried out by him had he been president. I see no different course for anyone in that situation. I would even think he may have dealt with it better, but that?s entirely speculation.

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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  8. #127
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    This thread seems pretty fun, a whole lot of arguments and replies...
    I don't like politic very much though. I have better things to do than watch rich people try to gain votes by being full of shit on tv.

    I Voted for the Communist party in Canada if I recall. Well it was the last on the list and I felt bad for it.(My friend said I should go vote anyway. I don't think they won though. Those poor commy.)

    Too sad I won't be seeing any party worth listening to in my life time. Oh well, at least I have food and friends and passion toward what I do, and also love. Yeah, that's all I really need.

    Oh and for whoever takes this very seriously, well you are all right. All of you, yes. Now you can feel better about yourself. ( Isn't it the only thing counts after all ? )

    Later Fellas,

    alx

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  9. #128
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    *gasp!* Validation! That's all I ever really wanted

    Hehe, I had a buddy that was a registered communist for the party in the U.S. I don't know if he was ideologically instep with them, but it was certainly fun having him be a card carrying communist!

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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  10. #129
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    Pretty good points, many things I do not like Dubya doing, one main one is speaking, he says such STUPID things at times. Me wonders who is really running whom. Cheney, Ashcroft, Rice, Powell.

    As far as the reaction to 911, Gore basically said he’d have done the same thing anyways. and under huge American pressure he would have certainly folded. Even if it was like taking a rocket launcher to a guy with a squirt gun hardly anyone was gonna cry about it in the US after what was done to us. Iraq is still a slight toss up to me, maybe good or maybe bad, time will tell, but the 911 reaction was fine and always will be in my book.

    As far Dubya on the environment, he has surely sucked, real bad, wetlands protection, oil production methods and preservation of natural resources, the SUV stunt. Ugghhh!

    But as far as the aid to African nations/whatever, it needs, aid to any other countries to be really evaluated by any President, American citizens still starve in streets and live like dogs all over and we still send billions overseas, I say take care of your own kids before you do foreign orphans. And if millions of people want to have unsafe sex why should we foot the bill? It is like saying that people who cut off limbs, we should feel sorry for and pay millions of dollars so they can have prosthesis limbs for cutting off their own arms.

    Scratches head with vigor…….

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  11. #130
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    Here is your (P)Resident.



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  12. #131
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    PUNCH IN THE FACE ROCKS! Sucker punch or no, its still punch in the face!

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  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueMech
    PUNCH IN THE FACE ROCKS! Sucker punch or no, its still punch in the face!
    How old is bluemech?

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  14. #133
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    I think the fraternity pics when he was getting drunk were funny, this one is pretty good though!

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  15. #134
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    Look here. I think that pic speaks volumes of who bush is at heart. Look at it... you can't tell me that it doesnt jive with his character. Look at his face, I see fear all over it. Fear and evil intentions.

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  16. #135
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    I respectfully disagree with everything you say Helium Macaroni.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Alrighty.. you like the guy, lets get some reasons.
    ok. I believe that government is inefficient and only serves a few useful purposes: Defense, Law & Order, and Currency. That is all you really need. I don't beleive that government can be compassionate.
    It is an emotionless machine. Only people can be compassionate. Only people can help other people.

    The bigger government gets, the more currupt, inefficient and wasteful it is. I think that our government wastes at least half of the money we put into it. I can speak from experience because I used to
    work in a government building and most of the people there hardly worked and would never get fired because government jobs have no accountability. If work isn't getting done they won't fire you they will just hire another person.

    So the best government is THEREFORE a small government that just operates the fundamental needs of government.

    That is how the U.S. government originally was, but of course over time it has grown and grown as it has become more currupted and wasteful. The reason for this is because politicians sell a new government programs to people to
    get elected and then raise taxes to pay for those programs and whether they work or not there is no accountability for them.

    - President Bush is trying to trim as much fat as possible by making the government more accountable and eliminating unnecessary programs that the government should have no business in in the first place.

    - He is a true leader with his own strong beliefs. He has nothing to lose and no strings attached. He does what he believes in.

    - Foreign policy and Defense- Bush is decisive and will do what is right for America, even if it is unpopular with other countries. I agree with him and believe in the long run we are doing what is right. He doesn't obey the polls; he is willing to take action at his own political expence. Kerry won't do that.

    - Under Bush you know that we will do whatever it takes to fight the war on terrorism. Kerry is indecisive and he may cut defense spending that is greatly needed in this day and age and in these times of war.

    - The tax-cut for ALL Americans who pay income tax. I want to keep my money and spend it how I choose, not have the government waste any more of it. Under Bush we are more likely to get the cut again, but Kerry will raise taxes.

    - Bush believes that a person can be responsible for his or her self and that local and state laws should be determined by their respective governments, not the federal government. Many of his programs give taxpayers a choice. Kerry will raise taxes to spend on programs that I don't want or care about.

    - Under Bush, actions will be made, things will get done. The world will change for the better.
    Kerry will do as little as possible to stay popular; it will be a mobocracy. He will try to please everybody and more problems will arise out of the stagnation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Whelp, I can list here's a list of reasons not to vote for Bush again:

    No Child Left behind, based on a failed Texas education reform.
    What part of the No Child Left Behind Act doesn't make sense to you? Don't you think that a school should be held accountable for how well it teaches it's students?
    Don't you think that a taxpayer should have the choice of where to send his or her child to school? Shouldn't proven educational methods be used instead of unproven ones?

    Our education system is failing because there is no competitiveness between schools. This act changes that. The biggest problem I always saw in public schools is that teachers who didn't give a crap couldn't get fired because of certain union laws that protected them after they had taught for a certain amount of years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Removal from the Kyoto accords Global Warming.
    First of all, Global Warming is an unproven theory, but it should be taken seriously. The Kyoto Accords were really a joke. It could not be enforced, only a few nations were signed on to it, and their economies suffered because of it. So we ditched it in order to keep competitive within a global economy. Is the sky going to fall now? I have faith that technology will reduce the threat of global warming in the years to come. Besides that, the U.S. is already doing more than most countries to reduce emissions and be "green". Go to Mexico City or Cairo; it's the countries that have no
    enforced emission laws at all that worry me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Allowing heavier logging and drilling in National Parks.
    Is it alright for another country's natural resources to be exploited and not our own? Oil is a valuable resource that we absolutely depend on too heavily from other countries.
    And Nature has a way of fixing itself.... trees grow back. I am looking forward to the days of affordable fuel cells, but right now we need to use these resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Enacting special tax exemptions for SUVs to be classified as Trucks as to allow for relaxed emission standards.
    I don't like SUV's and think most of them are a waste, and I am not too familiar with this act. But this doesn't seem like a very big deal to me.... what is the difference between an SUV and a truck? Most of them share the same engine and base and guzzle the same amount of gas.....


    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    The tax cut for the wealthiest in the nation.
    That's a funny play of words.... especially since it was a tax cut for EVERYONE. Every American who paid income taxes recieved a cut. About 150 Million Americans....
    and if you look at the charts on the link I have provided below as my source, you will see that more people in the lower and middle classes are benefiting from this cut than the RICH are:

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/ff/tenpercentbracket.html

    Personally, I feel that since we are all legally equal in this country, that there should be one tax for everyone. It would make things simple and fair. It seems like a lot of people on here HATE RICH PEOPLE because they are rich. That is not right. I'm not rich but I know a lot of great people who are very wealthy, and you shouldn't judge someone by that. There
    are a lot of rich assholes and brats out there who didn't even earn their wealth, but someone related to them did. You should respect that. There is sooooo much opportunity in this country and when I read you talk about populism I just feel like you are too negative and you don't appreciate the great opportunity you have by living here right now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    The prescription drug program which was sought by the major pharmaceuticals.
    Sounds good to me. What don't you like about it besides the EVIL CORPORATION reason? I want to be able to choose.


    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Limitation of Stem Cell research.
    I kind of disagree with this too, but the main reason is to make cloning humans illegal. I'm all for curing diseases and growing organs, but cloning a human sounds like a bad idea to me. So the research should be limited and controlled. If you think about all the problems that human cloning could cause......it is very complicated. But then again, that research is being done offshore regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Creation of Faith Based social services instead of allotting money towards genuine urban renewal or social benefits.
    This doesn't bother me at all. A faith-based social service and a non-faith-based social service are still providing social services. A faith-based social service is just as genuine. I personally would rather help someone out myself. You seem to have grudges again religion and wealth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Helping to limit the rights of plaintiffs against HMO's.
    This makes sense to me. Don't the lawsuit stories that you hear about bother you? It has gone too far in this country. You can get sued for just about anything. HMO's are providing an invaluable service to people and they deserve protection, but the recent trend of ridiculous lawsuits made the financial risks to be a doctor greater and ultimately that affected their insurance and the patient's bill. By limiting the rights of plaintiffs, the risk and cost is lower for the HMO and in turn the service is better. Do you
    want your doctor to be afraid to help you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Providing far below the minimum needed funding for AIDS prevention in Africa.
    What is the minimum needed? The truth is that we are still donating a lot:

    "the United States will this year spend $2.4 billion, nearly twice as much to fight AIDS as the rest of the world's donor governments combined." -U.S. AIDS coordinator Randall Tobias (USAToday)

    Not to mention the additional $150 Million generously donated by Bill Gates and the Gates Foundation this year. That's the way it should be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Cutting aid to nations that to not advocate abstinence-only AIDS prevention
    Well, abstinence IS the only way to prevent it. Obviously that isn't going to happen. It does bother me how the U.N. demands to the U.S. how much money to give them and how it will be spent.
    It is our money. The real issue here isn't our policy on AIDS Prevention in Africa, because I don't see how any government program is going to stop the spread of AIDS.
    What we really need is a CURE. And we are spending a ton of money on research for that. It is only a matter of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Not being astute enough to take the warnings of terrorism seriously prior to 9/11 (this is debatable)
    This is not even debatable. No one was astute enough, no one ever thought that 9-11 would really happen until it did. In retrospect there were obvious warnings, but only in retrospect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Squandering worldwide respect and sympathy for America post 9/11
    I disagree. You are correct- a lot of people aren't too fond of us at the moment. But what are the real reasons for it?

    - They weren't too fond of us before 9-11 either.

    - A lot of foreign media (most of which is left-wing) is unfairly negative toward America and President Bush,
    This disrespect has created an unfair bias and hatred in foreigners towards Americans.

    - The U.S. isn't here to do what the rest of the world thinks is right. We should do what we think is right. And we have. I don't care what the rest of the world thinks about us as long as we do what we think is right.

    I don't want to shut us off from the rest of the world either, and we haven't done that. We have many allies. The fact of the matter is, it is very difficult for the entire world to agree on one thing. That is why the U.N. is so slow to do anything and also why we had to act without U.N. support.

    - I think a lot of people in other countries envy the U.S. and dislike Americans out of jealousy. We are the last superpower and we are very wealthy. Whether they like it or not, we make a lot of decisions and actions that affect the world and them. They don't like that. I don't blame them but that's the way it is. It's been that way since WWII.
    The U.S. is in a very difficult position of responsibility to the rest of the world. We have to nourish and police at the same time. No matter how much aid we give or how many countries we liberate, we will be criticized and despised. It is human nature. But I know that the U.S. is genuinely good. We didn't take over the world when we made the A-bomb. The US helps out the rest of the world more than any other country in history. If this world order is pissing people off, then they're ignorant.

    - Some governments in other countries like France and Germany are trying to change the balance of world power to be more in their favor. In my opinion they have totally let us down.


    - When you say "squander" it is like saying that we failed to take advantage of the leverage of worldwide respect and sympathy. Well, maybe we did, but that's not what's at stake here. Again- I don't care what
    the rest of the world thinks about us as long as we do what is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Waging needless war, based on lies against a sovereign nation that was of no threat.
    A needless war? How can you argue that getting rid of Saddam, liberating Iraqis, and finishing what was started in the Gulf War needless? A sovereign nation that was no threat? President Bush and
    Congress genuinely believed that Iraq was a threat. They didn't lie. They were fed false information- The CIA, British intelligence, and Russian intelligence ALL believed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.
    If the CIA, British and Russian Intell. told you that he had nukes, what would you do?!

    Now we know better that he probably didn't, but if we didn't go, we still wouldn't know...... and you wouldn't even be able to found this question on anything!

    In the long run, we have done the right thing. Thoughout all of history, there has never been peace until one side has been defeated. The middle east is messed up, and in time going to Iraq will change that region
    for the better. There needs to be a western presence there, because right now muslim countries are preaching hatred. They are teaching people that acts of terrorism can be used to change government policies and that killing civilians is ok.
    Its not ok, its a fundamental threat to modern society, and the people that preach and believe in terrorism need to be defeated.



    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    In my opinion the most real issue is that of economic equality and opportunity...........However, the issues that are of greater importance, at least in terms of effecting people on a very personal level are economic ones.
    Despite what seems to be an unfounded popular belief, the President really has no definitive control over the economy. The economy goes up and down, and just about every ten years there is a recession. He can help it, but the less the government interferes the better. Alan Greenspan hasn't changed jobs, and he has more control over the economy than Bush.... why don't you blame him?

    The tax cuts have helped put money back in people's pockets to spend and fuel the economy. Within the year I think that the economy will be back in
    a full swing no matter who is elected in November, but it is unpredictable. If you are so concerned with the economy, then why do you want to vote for
    someone who will raise your taxes? Economic equality and opportunity? As long as you don't give up, you can be whatever you want to be in this country. No one is "STUCK".

    Last edited by benzo; August 15th, 2004 at 03:09 PM.
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  17. #136
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    Jesus Benzo, lay off the Kool*aid.
    Don't you know that shit causes cancer?

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    I likewise respectfully disagree with everything you say, benzo. But, a lengthy point-by-point response from me will have to wait until Thursday night, when my finals end.

    In short however, what I may argue is that this society has limited significantly the ability for upward mobility in regards to economic advancement. That is an ideological and ethical debate that can continue at a later time. I may however point out that the tax breaks that you so laud (that do indeed go to everyone), unnecessarily favor the rich, who are disproportionately richer than the rest of society. It is most likely an issue of "fairness" which I'm sure you would like to stricken from any government?s obligation to maintain. The tax breaks also were not a break, but a loan, or an advance. I can go into more detail about this later, after finals.

    A small note on Bill Gates and his charity: The interesting thing about that situation was the fact that Gates is invested in Burroughs Wellcome, the manufacturer of AZT, and the only manufacturer allowed by international trade agreement to sell to South Africa. So, not questioning Mr. Gates' charitable contribution, because I'm sure he is a socially conscientious man, and I know his charity is very generous and good-doing, but he directly profits off of this donation to South Africa. Also, I hear his father, who is at the heard of the Foundation, is the real source of charity. I don't mean to sound like I hate rich people, I do not. However I believe they owe their share in a nation that allowed them to become so wealthy. In a world which every rich man gives to the poor from the kindness of his own heart, and sees to the voluntary donation to causes of his choosing, there would indeed be a decent amount of harmony. However, you must take into consideration the fact that there are many such persons, of enormous wealth, who abuse their status, power, and money to acquire more. For example Ken Lay, John Rigas and his two sons, Robert Pittman, Fred Schiff, and William T. McCormick Jr. amongst many others. There is no blanket accusation that should be held against the rich and powerful, but as those who weald such vast power and wealth, they deserve greater scrutiny and should be obliged to conform to the established laws of corporate accountability, which to this point in time they have only just begun to be. This does not even take into consideration the countless corporations who escape taxation and government regulation through loopholes and offshore banking. Again, a conversation for another time.

    There is much more indeed to discuss, but my work at the moment will not permit the loss of any more time. I will gladly approach this when my schedule lets up and I have time to properly rebut every point you've made. I look forward to replying to your statements, thank you for addressing my questions in a concise way.

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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  19. #138
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    hey all

    let me first appologize to Helium for not making a good enough effort to find him at the comic-con. I ran into a bunch of friends and met a bunch more new ones thrugh them and had a really good time but i did not get a chance to hang out at the Watts booth like i planned. anyways good luck with the finals and i cant wait to hear your responce to benzo's post.


    here is mine:

    benzo, i don't think i'll touch on every point you made (it is late here on the east coast), but in regard to the tax cut. I did not get the $300 in the mail. neither did my parents. what little difference i pay less this year as apposed to the years previous is offset by the taxes my state and other states raised to help pay for Bush's programs (homeland security, no child left behind, faith-based initiatives, etc.) the taxcut is a political ploy. bush gets to wave it around and appease his base and the few that are fooled by this lie while still paying more. waht's worse is that my future children will have to pay the bill.

    by biggest reason for voting for kerry (besides the fact that he's not bush) is his promice to close the tax loopholes. do i think he can do anything about them? probably not. will he ever close them? probably not. but at least he aknowleges it. and you may never know, he may do something about it.

    also, kerry's medical plan (based on repealing taxcuts for those making above $200k yearly) is said to cost about 50+ billion over the period of ten years (not too sure of the exact figure and too lazy to look for them right now). thats 500millon a year. and it will cover 40+ million people that are un-insured. that is a great idea. considering that in 2002 there were 80 millon uninsured.

    now i agree with bush's theory that people should be allowed to invest in retirement. but i also agree with the theory of communism. and we see how well that werked. i think that an option to invest should be there but it should be explained to people wanting to use that option (allong with the risks involved) the BS that was paased with the medicare plan is also a political ploy. it goes into effect in 2006, long after the election, and does nothing about lowering drug costs. the medicare discount cards are a crock of shit. you can only subscibe to one per year. it only lowers the cost of certain drugs by 30% max. and it is a scam to get more money out of seniors (cost $30 per card) most seniors hear that bush passed the medicare savings act and they're sold. and come 2006 when the plan kicks in and they save shit cause inflation jacked the price of the drug to compensate the drug companies for the discount. I think kerry's plan to use the government's buying power (imagine a big "corporation" getting major discounts by bying in bulk) to lower the price of drugs is a step in the right direction.

    the argument on fox news and other republicans is that the high prices we pay helps fund R&D of new drugs. well consider this. we made a giant mess in Iraq and we want the world to help pay for it. but something the world benefits from we want to pay for all ourselves. either we get drug costs down to the same levels that canada, and england, and france, and germany pays or we jack up their prices. i think that if the companies raise the mount other countries pay by just 5-10% we'll be able to lower our costs by the same 30% that bush proposed with the discount cards. and this will be a saving across the board. the savings to the consumer will in amount as a taxcut of sorts letting people keep a portion on money they'd otherwize spend on medicine and fuel bush's Piss-On-You Economics.



    and another thing about taxes: bush said that he is looking into abolishing income taxes by implementing a federal sales tax. now i know that i cant hang him on this issue because he is just toying with the idea. there is absolutly no talk of implementing this. but if id does happen it will once again be a burdain on the middle and lower classes. imagine a tax upwards of 25% for anything from food to cars. This will be a sucker punch to economic growth. it will be the biggest taxbreak for the rich because they doge taxes like nobody's business. i think i wrote about this before but let me refresh your memory. i work at an art gallery. we sold a $50k sculpture to a client for his house in FL. he had to pay $3,000 in sales tax. he wanted us to send an empty box to his house in chicago so that he wouldnt pay the tax. and this happens constantly. the rich have more resources to avoid paying taxes.


    as always, theres tons more i would like to say, but its late. i need sleep

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    Quick reponse..

    Commy, now worries about the 'con, I was too ADD anyway to find anyone

    I agree with your points, as always.

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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  21. #140
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    In case anyone has time, you might be interested in watching this tonight:

    tonight at 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET

    "The O'Reilly Factor"

    A special encore presentation of Bill's rumble with filmmaker Michael Moore

    I've read the transcript from this and I think it's a very interesting trade of words between the opposing ideologies.

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    Totally OT here but I just heard on the news AIDS is India's number 1 killer right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by benzo
    In case anyone has time, you might be interested in watching this tonight:

    tonight at 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET

    "The O'Reilly Factor"

    A special encore presentation of Bill's rumble with filmmaker Michael Moore

    I've read the transcript from this and I think it's a very interesting trade of words between the opposing ideologies.
    Benzo, is that available online?

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    Here is a partial transcript from foxnews.com.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,127236,00.html

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    What part of the No Child Left Behind Act doesn't make sense to you? Don't you think that a school should be held accountable for how well it teaches it's students?
    The problem with No Child Left Behind was that it raises the bar for standards without increasing funding. What this means is that already-underfunded schools now have to work harder with funds they do not have, or they will have their funding cut. It's basically just a thinly veiled overhead cut to education funding.

    Don't you think that a taxpayer should have the choice of where to send his or her child to school?
    I would rather like a choice about where my taxes go. If tax money for already-underfunded public education is being siphoned to pay for private schooling vouchers, then I have a huge problem with it.

    Shouldn't proven educational methods be used instead of unproven ones?
    One of the main reasons that there's even a market for unproven teaching methods is because many schools act in desperation when there's not enough funding to purchase the proper textbooks, classroom equipment, teacher training, and so on.

    It should also be noted that very many private schools use unproven and sometimes even harmful teaching methods, because they're not regulated in the manner that public education is.

    Our education system is failing because there is no competitiveness between schools. This act changes that.
    No. Our education system is failing because schools are tragically underfunded. Cutting funding does not increase competition - instead it worsens an already bad problem.

    The biggest problem I always saw in public schools is that teachers who didn't give a crap couldn't get fired because of certain union laws that protected them after they had taught for a certain amount of years.
    Another symptom of poor funding. Better funding would allow schools to hire more teachers who actually do care (and keep them on staff) regardless of ham-handed labor laws.

    Art student
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    Youd not believe how much Federal money is funneled into local school systems for data communications and generally flushed or wasted down the drain. Thank you Bill Clinton for that one.

    Dems adn Rebs alike have this govt bandage, if you toss enough money at it the problem will go away or be cured. Anybody with a lick of Business sense knows this is not true. But then again it is our money not theirs they spend eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by frosty
    Youd not believe how much Federal money is funneled into local school systems for data communications and generally flushed or wasted down the drain. Thank you Bill Clinton for that one.

    Dems adn Rebs alike have this govt bandage, if you toss enough money at it the problem will go away or be cured. Anybody with a lick of Business sense knows this is not true. But then again it is our money not theirs they spend eh?
    Anybody with a lick of business sense knows that it's funding AND regulation that cures a problem. Regulation alone will not solve something when the problem is primarily lack of funding, and funding alone will not solve a problem when reuglation is inefficient.

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    "However I don't think this article takes certain underlying historical truths into account. I think there are significant generalizations that don't address the nuances of the time, the events, or the persons involved. Interesting read though."

    Care to outline those points? It just that OSC has always had a very objective point of view. He also has a passion and a huge knowlage of history, so I find it unlikley that he didn't figure anything significant into his article.

    However, I would like to mention that his aim was not to persude anybody. It's simply to make you think. That's why I love reading his articles. He's not twisting any facts around to get his way.

    Don't just practice. Also Practice the right things, the right way.
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    First of all, Global Warming is an unproven theory
    This statement isn't true...

    Is it alright for another country's natural resources to be exploited and not our own?
    And what do you mean by this benzo? Are you saying its okay to exploit natural resources because other countries do?


    I just saw the film, it was very interesting.
    I think it goes without saying, impeach tex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by troymcoy
    This statement isn't true...
    Why isn't it true? You can't prove it. I'm not saying it isn't, I'm just saying everyone assumes that it is true because they FEAR it is. There is a ton of research to support it, but still a ton of unanswered possibilities. Look at what we know about the history of the Earth. The temperature of this planet has fluctuated over time naturally. Nature has a way of replenishing and balancing herself. Today, whenever there is a flood or a drought or anything, environmentalists freak out. It seriously is like chicken little.


    Quote Originally Posted by troymcoy
    And what do you mean by this benzo? Are you saying its okay to exploit natural resources because other countries do?
    I am saying it is okay to exploit natural resources, including our own. They are needed. Until they aren't needed anymore, be it by way of new technology or whatever, they will be exploited.

    Quote Originally Posted by troymcoy
    I think it goes without saying, impeach tex.
    It doesn't go without saying.....just because Moore makes you sad and angry about the world doesn't mean that Bush is doing the wrong thing. He is doing the right thing and it is also the most difficult thing to do.

    DanSTC- I agree with you that teachers aren't paid enough. But pouring more money into our education system isn't going to solve anything until there is more accountability for that money and the system is more affective.

    At least Bush's new program is a good start towards more accountability. Personally, I would want a choice to use the tax money I pay every year for schools to go towards the private school I would put my child in. Its my money, I should have that choice.

    Right now, the public school teachers with tenure are protected from getting fired by unions. Even if they don't do their jobs, they can't get fired. I went to public school and then changed to private because I was sick of nobody giving a shit.

    frosty- I totally agree with you. Throwing money at a problem won't solve it. You have to choose between the two evils, I think, and Republicans are the better of the two because they fundamentally believe in smaller government. Besides spending a ton of money on Defense, which is necessary and one of the things that government is ONLY useful for (you can't make that private), they don't want to be big spenders.

    However, in this day and age of lazy blood-suckers who want the government to take care of them, it is difficult to get elected without spending more taxpayer money. So many people fall into the left-wing trap of: we'll raise taxes and provide more unnecessary, money-vacuum services for you. Vote for me.

    Last edited by benzo; August 22nd, 2004 at 06:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmishCommy
    but in regard to the tax cut. I did not get the $300 in the mail. neither did my parents. what little difference i pay less this year as apposed to the years previous is offset by the taxes my state and other states raised to help pay for Bush's programs (homeland security, no child left behind, faith-based initiatives, etc.) the taxcut is a political ploy. bush gets to wave it around and appease his base and the few that are fooled by this lie while still paying more. what's worse is that my future children will have to pay the bill. We will all have to pay more for security now no matter who is President.
    It's not a political ploy. You will be paying less to the government under Bush than Kerry. $300 bucks is still $300 bucks. The amount you get back reflects the amount of taxes you pay. Why should you get more back than someone who pays ten times more in taxes a year? If you didn't get your cut in the mail, and you qualified for it, then you should call the IRS. Show me what taxes your state raised to pay for Bush's programs.... what is your source?

    Quote Originally Posted by AmishCommy
    by biggest reason for voting for kerry (besides the fact that he's not bush) is his promice to close the tax loopholes. do i think he can do anything about them? probably not. will he ever close them? probably not. but at least he aknowleges it. and you may never know, he may do something about it.
    The reason there are so many loopholes is because everyone is taxed differently. If there was one tax for EVERYONE like there should be, there would be no loopholes and everyone would be treated equally.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmishCommy
    now i agree with bush's theory that people should be allowed to invest in retirement. but i also agree with the theory of communism. and we see how well that werked. i think that an option to invest should be there but it should be explained to people wanting to use that option (along with the risks involved).
    People need to be more responsible for their own retirements. Too many people today DEPEND on his or her employer to manage their retirements. If they don't take control and monitor their own money, I have no pity for them if they lose it all.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmishCommy
    the BS that was paased with the medicare plan is also a political ploy. it goes into effect in 2006, long after the election, and does nothing about lowering drug costs. the medicare discount cards are a crock of shit. you can only subscibe to one per year. it only lowers the cost of certain drugs by 30% max. and it is a scam to get more money out of seniors (cost $30 per card) most seniors hear that bush passed the medicare savings act and they're sold. and come 2006 when the plan kicks in and they save shit cause inflation jacked the price of the drug to compensate the drug companies for the discount. I think kerry's plan to use the government's buying power (imagine a big "corporation" getting major discounts by bying in bulk) to lower the price of drugs is a step in the right direction.

    the argument on fox news and other republicans is that the high prices we pay helps fund R&D of new drugs. well consider this. we made a giant mess in Iraq and we want the world to help pay for it. but something the world benefits from we want to pay for all ourselves. either we get drug costs down to the same levels that canada, and england, and france, and germany pays or we jack up their prices. i think that if the companies raise the mount other countries pay by just 5-10% we'll be able to lower our costs by the same 30% that bush proposed with the discount cards. and this will be a saving across the board. the savings to the consumer will in amount as a taxcut of sorts letting people keep a portion on money they'd otherwize spend on medicine and fuel bush's Piss-On-You Economics.
    You make some good points, but basically it sounds like you want our government to be Socialist. Well I don't. It was not founded to be Socialist and I hope we never make the mistake of making it one. The USA was not intended to be like France or Canada or other countries. If you want our health system to be like those other countries, you should live there instead. Let me know how those taxes are too, what is it 50-60% of your income or something? Enjoy that. Because the US is not like those countries, you have more opportunity and you can make a better living here. I want it to stay that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmishCommy
    and another thing about taxes: bush said that he is looking into abolishing income taxes by implementing a federal sales tax. now i know that i cant hang him on this issue because he is just toying with the idea. there is absolutly no talk of implementing this. but if id does happen it will once again be a burdain on the middle and lower classes. imagine a tax upwards of 25% for anything from food to cars. This will be a sucker punch to economic growth. it will be the biggest taxbreak for the rich because they doge taxes like nobody's business.
    No doubt tax dodging happens all the time- by the rich and the poor. Why? Right now the rich pay the bulk of taxes. But the income tax is constitutionally WRONG. Please tell me, if we are all equal, how it is fair? If there is a federal sales tax, then we will ALL be taxed fairly, like we should be.

    Last edited by benzo; August 22nd, 2004 at 07:12 PM.
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