Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 911" / Also 911 Road to Tyranny!!! - Page 4
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  1. #91
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    I once would have claimed that all these contrasting ideologies, motives, beliefs, particularly the self-serving ones all balance out and provide the best political balance and a healthy way of life. I'm realising how, like populalism, naive this is. It clearly isn't that balanced. The michael moore film at point left me in despair and a sense of helplessness, at the fact that such corruptness, such oligarchy exists in the most powerful individual positions on the planet. But then what to be done, do I go out an join the protesters, dedicate my life to an ideological fix in belief that all can be solved. Maybe you don't have to think that all will be solved, but just that these errors can't go unprotested. Do people make a difference, It'd be fair to say Michael Moore has, but then it seems that any intelligence that gains levels of influence or power also gains ulterior motives, I wonder if the two are directly proportional. I'll get my graph paper.

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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Slanted as it was, lies if there were, the most telling scene that sums up this mans agenda was given no pretext or facts to be hashed out or disputed. He stands in his tuxedo at podium in front of a pristine audience and states:

    "This is an impressive crowd -- the haves ... and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite; I call you my base."

    Signed, sealed, delivered.
    I would call this a half truth, Moore left out information hopeing the viewer would fill in the peices with wrong information. Let me guess, you thought Bush was talking to his supporters at a political fundraiser? Nope, Thats just what Moore wanted you to think. The truth is Bush was a guest speaker at a charity fundraiser. What a monster! Everyone there was giving away part of their fortune to help others, including Al Gore, who was there at the time. Is Al Gore part of the Bush "elite-base?"

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  3. #93
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    Was he still speaking to millionaires that choose to affect policy by the sway of their money? Indeed Al Gore may have been in the mix. I'd like to know who else was at the ceremony to further clarify the position. Regardless of the situation, he's speaking to the elite and the rich. He then clarifies that they are his base. Even the Heritage Foundation has charitable events; I'd think that the majority of such a crowd would be staunch backers of his more -neo-conservative agendas. I know that even when fundraisers, charities or media dinners are held with members of the administration, they still invite the likes of Al Franken. I'm sure he doesn't agree with half the things said by the hosts of such an event. Whether it's Al Gore, or Rupert Murdoch in the room, I would choose that those in the top 10% of the population not solely be the group that dictates his policy. Speaking even from within the context, the statement is telling. He states that the rich and elite are his base, which I have known for a while, which doesn't make this the smoking gun that it would appear to be for lesser informed individuals, it's simply further evidence.

    I'd be rather interested in knowing who composed the group to which he was speaking. If you have any sources of it's make up, I'd love to see them.

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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  4. #94
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    One quick question, why would Bush announce his secret neo-con agenda in front of the cameras?

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  5. #95
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    Bush says a lot of dumb things in front of cameras.

    -Lono

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  6. #96
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    I've said some dumb things in front of cameras.

    Sorry, that was stupid.

    Don't just practice. Also Practice the right things, the right way.
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  7. #97
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    Red face re:

    "spreading terror throughout western society"

    hahaha

    is this the same thing as crop dusting?

    hahah sorry just sounds funny.

    was Saddam going to spread terror by shaving both sides of his stash? lol

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  8. #98
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    I havent read all these (some of first and last page only), but from reviews (admittedly and ironically from TV and magazines) everyone bases their view around whether they are for or against Michael Moore. Thats not worded correctly but ill lay out my point below.

    Lots of people (all over the world) seem to be completely brainwashed by their version of the media, and they take this as gospel. I realise its very hard to make a decision on something without actually seeing/experiencing it for yourself. But we ARE allowed to sit on the fence and reseve judgement.
    Basically I wish the majority of people would use their brains and make their own mind up.

    Personally I dont mind what your government does, the world works for me as it is with a roof over my head access to this and living a reasonable life, I dont however like the deceitfulness mine (and the US) government have done on many fronts. A shame they cant answer questions as people instead of politicians which they are forced to do.

    Sorry for going slightly off-topic. Not a big film buff and never got into Columbine, so will put it on my 'to rent' list. In the mean time Everyone (you US giys too) go and buy 'The League of Gentlemen' which is a hilarious and very dark british comedy series. It is unique and very dark, most of you gourish(sp) guys would love it! :nod:

    Cockney boy, but south of the river!
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  9. #99
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    man-o-man!!!

    I guess because someone moved this thrad i havent been getting any updates and i totaly missed the part whereit grew to over 4 pages. It'll take me some time to read the all the posts. but i have to reply to Pencil Soldier's post from the first page. That comment about Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor and let it happen. It was the only way to unite a contry to fight in WWII. Why would Americans go fight Hitler and Japan when they had not waged war on America? Now in retrospect, the sacrifice of about 3000 people at Pearl Harbor did get america involved in WWII which I will say helped turn the tides of that war. and although I dont condone the sacrifice of 3000 lives, it was in a sence for the better. Maybe when we're in our 70's and 80's we'll be able to look at September 11th, 2001 one and say that the sacrifice of 3000 inicent lives on that day was for the better of the world. Right now all i can say is that Bush's pupet masters are doing a good job at isolating America to its pre-WWII days. Some may see it as a good thing. I look at it as going back on decades of progress.

    I love it when Republicans call Michael Moore and Liberals like myself unpatriotic. I belive myself to be a very patriotic person. I actualy belive in the idealism on which America was founded. Hell, my family and I left our home country, friends and family, to come to America, to come to the unknown and embraced America and its culture, and embraced the idealism. The reason I'm so piised off is that I've come to a realization is that idealism was never achieved and is shitted upon daily. Excuse me for not supporting the killing of inocent arabs, insiting people against our country, and shitting on the people that keep the country a super power (the poor and the middle class- here's a simple realization: the poor die in wars to protect this country from made up enemies, the middle class pay for it all, and the rich buy 70ft yahts while pissing on the poor and the middle class)


    Please take the time to read this.

    Last edited by AmishCommy; July 18th, 2004 at 02:37 AM.
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  10. #100
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    I have heard many here talk about making your own informed decision about the political parties and presidential candidates. However, I didn't see any posts which point viewers in any direction as far as political information sites. This could be a thread hijack, but I thought my post would fit in here better than anywhere else.

    I think there are four major areas that needed to be examined by any voter who wishes to do their own research.

    First, a voter needs to read through the current platform of each political party. If there is no platform available in written or oral form, that voter should not bother voting for that party.

    Next, a voter should look at the presidential candidates platform. This is not always synonymous with the party they are running under. A party/candidate platform is kind of like their resume. It's a rough statement of what that person stands for. Would you hire anyone without reading their resume or interviewing them? Never the less, politicians rarely ever out-right state their platforms. [aside-This is something I've never understood. It's probably the most important job in the country and the people applying for it rarely give you any idea how they will vote on upcoming legislation or the real makeup of their "plans"]. You have to gather bits and pieces here and there (something a working person has very little time for).

    Third, the voter should look at what legislation is coming up and listen to the candidates' statements on how they would vote or what legislation they would pass. You need to know what is coming up because if a candidate is a strong advocate or opposer for an issue and that issue isn't coming up in the next four years, then that is an irrelevant point. A president can't pass something that is never offered up to him. i.e.- nonexistent legislative proposals don't effect us.

    Fourth, every voter should watch the electoral debates. This is often the only immeadiate way to determine who the appropriate candidate is. The debates crystalize many of the disagreements between the competing candidates, thereby allowing you to see through the enigmatic campaign mist and make a clear cut decision.

    Now, I'm going to help point you in the right direction for the two main parties in this year's election.

    Republican Party - www.gop.com -(GOP usually stands for "grand old party")
    Democratic Party - www.johnkerry.com OR www.democrats.org

    At these sites you can read the platform of each party and where the president and the presidential candidate stand on general issues. I'm not sure what site you can go to in order to find a calendar of bills and other legislative events that are coming up over the next four years, but perhaps someone else can post a link about that....

    Hope this helps some people out.

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  11. #101
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    headline story as depicted in 9/11



    actual letter to the editor (not a news story at all)



    A study by a newspaper consortium including the Miami Herald and USA Today disproves Fahrenheit's claim that Gore won under any scenario. As USA Today summarized, on May 11, 2001:

    Who would have won if Al Gore had gotten manual counts he requested in four counties? Answer: George W. Bush."

    "Who would have won if the U.S. Supreme Court had not stopped the hand recount of undervotes, which are ballots that registered no machine-readable vote for president? Answer: Bush, under three of four standards."

    "Who would have won if all disputed ballots including those rejected by machines because they had more than one vote for president had been recounted by hand? Answer: Bush, under the two most widely used standards; Gore, under the two least used."

    It's certainly possible under some of the variable scenarios to produce a Gore victory. But it's undeniably dishonest for Fahrenheit to assert that Gore would win under any scenario.


    bush is an asshole, moore is an asshole.

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  12. #102
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    * If a recount had been performed under the standards of a 1996 Texas election law signed by then-Gov. George W. Bush, Gore might have won by 42 votes. The Texas law provides that a vote should be counted if it reflects "a clearly ascertainable intent of the voter," including dimpled chads and overvotes on optically scanned ballots.

    http://www.latimes.com/la-111201recount.story

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  13. #103
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    that only proves my point the the archaic and cobbled together voting system in america makes it impossible to accurately predict a winner in an election as tight as that one.

    For Moore to say absolutely that Bush stole the election is absurd. especially when the only evidence he presents is a doctored news article.

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  14. #104
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    Though it may be absurd to judge the election stolen solely on the basis of miscounted votes, one might take into account the amount of fraud, role manipulation, and intimidation that also impacted the outcome.

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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  15. #105
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    dang!!!

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  16. #106
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    Michael Moron I say.

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  17. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by frosty
    Michael Moron I say.
    Wow frosty, did you make that up yourself. U R SMRAT.

    I challenge you frosty to tell us why you think he's such a moron. Tell us. And no, "Because Bill O'reilly tells me so." Is not a valid response.

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  18. #108
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    nor is I saw it on fox news, or I heard it from my dad, or I heard from a dumbass country song...

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  19. #109
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    I concur with the Grooves.

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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  20. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helium Macaroni
    Though it may be absurd to judge the election stolen solely on the basis of miscounted votes, one might take into account the amount of fraud, role manipulation, and intimidation that also impacted the outcome.

    Not to mention the mainly conservative Supreme Court HALTING the counting twice in order to ensure that a final tally would not be finished before the final deadline.

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  21. #111
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    hearing a moore supporter complain that conservatives mindlessly follow o'reilly, fox news, or country song is incredibly ironic. and hilarious.

    and moore is something of a moron, or at least a bad debater. Moore vs. O'Reilly last night was funny. it was like watching dumb and dumber.

    i noticed no one bothered to reply to moore's "article" above.

    Last edited by MrSmith; July 29th, 2004 at 02:39 AM.
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  22. #112
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    I guess so. Playing the reversing game is also hilarious. Let me try

    Hearing an O'Reilly supporter complain that liberals mindlessly follow Moore is incredibly ironic, and hilarious.

    Hey that was fun!!!

    I fail to see how
    " nor is I saw it on fox news, or I heard it from my dad, or I heard from a dumbass country song..."

    makes me a mindless Micheal Moore supporter, but whatever

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  23. #113
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    funny, i didnt think calling someone michael moron as that guy above automatically makes him a o'reilly supporter.

    and me? i don't like o'reilly, moore, garafolo, rush limbaugh or any of the hundreds of other extremist clones. i don't see the difference. and i'll probably vote for kerry (could change). but moore's lies are no better than bush's or anyone elses.

    corruption went both ways in florida, the republicans just had home field advantage.

    Last edited by MrSmith; July 29th, 2004 at 03:04 AM.
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  24. #114
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    Fair enough. I'm speaking through personal experience, so it was unfair to Frosty to lump him in with fox watching, country singing, o' reilly supporters that I know. The vagueness of his comment triggered a response as I'm sure if someone just posted "Bush sucks cack" would've.

    I wish I could've seen that debate though, that would be entertaining as hell. infuriating, but entertaining.

    Edit: That was a fun exchange though MrSmith, I enjoyed that a little bit
    I like your list too. Looks like we actually might agree on more things than I originally thought.

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  25. #115
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    don't sweat it. i ramble like a crackhead half the time anyway

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  26. #116
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    Wink

    I don't care for O'Reilly or Fox News
    or country music or my Dad or Rush

    I don't really have the energy to get into
    this about Moore, and I like open
    forum discussions, I don't wish to start out in a
    flame war here, this seems like a nice place to
    hang out and I hope you let me stay a spell.

    Last edited by frosty; July 29th, 2004 at 03:10 PM.
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  27. #117
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    myself, i don't ilke bush for several reasons.
    first and formost, is because he always remindes me of a monkey.

    the rest hardly matter.

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  28. #118
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    ...and the truth shall set you free. It's a lot to read... but it IS worth it.

    http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fift...enheit-911.htm

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  29. #119
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    Just out of curiosity, do the people that try to disprove "facts" in Moore's movie (it's obviously a slanted view, so lets throw all that aside) think Bush has done a good job? Disregarding any dislike for Moore.

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  30. #120
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    Yes, I think he has and is doing a good job.

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