Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 911" / Also 911 Road to Tyranny!!! - Page 3
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by HugeHarHar
    I saw the Bowling for Columbine thing, and proved to me that he is a complete and total idiot, as well as a greedy fuck bent on using age old biased and twisted media facts and opinions to make some money for himself. First nothing in the movie is origninal. All of it stolen from someone, somewhere. And all of it bent and twisted.
    I know dude! I hate how documentaries just steal footage!

    Quote Originally Posted by HugeHarHar
    Oh, and if you made it illegal to own or make guns, how would that affect criminals? They're criminals. They do illegal stuff.
    Good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by HugeHarHar
    So make it where only they have guns. Fine, what if there are no guns at all? They'll find something else to commit their illegal deeds. Rocks, knives, pencils, branches. Are you going to make it illegal to have rocks? That would be alittle hard.
    Another good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by HugeHarHar
    Anyways. If you honestly think he is a smart, good, honerable, decent, helpful, or intelligent man...then please find some unbiased, truthful, good, information.
    Yeah, all that stuff in the documentar was totally false.

    Last edited by RefrigeratorCo; July 1st, 2004 at 06:01 PM.
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  2. #62
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    can you form your own opinion on this refrigerator?

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  3. #63
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    I'd like to say I look at both sides pretty well.. and am middle of the road..

    One thing I thought was iffy was.

    Bush Sr. recieves 20 million dollars a year from the President of Saudi Arabia as an advisor.. This started when his son was elected.

    Talk about putting your hand in someones pocket!

    The other thing is when we went to IRAQ the reason was.. " we are going to find weapons of mass distruction." As soon as they figured out there were none.. it went too.. " we are liberating the people of Iraq".. What kinda bullshit is that!

    You can't just up and change the reason as it suits you..

    I think everyone has made some good points.. and this is a great read for anyone who doesn't pay attention to what is going on in there country..

    Some things that I have read over the past few months I find sad.

    1. We killed more innocent people in Afghanistan with our bombs, then people were killed in the Trade Towers..

    2. Most people don't know there State Representatives and/or Senators. They also don't even know the people in there city councils. Shoot some didn't even vote. And the worst part is a lot of those people called you "UnAmerican" when you were anti-war and sided with the French, and when you didn't wave a flag and sport it after 911.

    This is even sadder... I use to work at a Flag,banner, sign, decal kind of place.. We normally stockpiled Flags of different countries for people to come in and buy.. I'd say we had about 100 or so American Flags.. After 911, we sold every single one.. And we didn't jack up the prices.. People would come in astonished that we didn't jack up the prices.. They said they had been to other places trying to buy flags and the owners had risen the prices emensely.. How sad is that.. Talk about coporate america at its finest... what crap..

    I haven't gotten to see Moore's movie.. but I am sure I will.. Its always nice to broaden your horizens.. And who said you should take "EVERYTHING" you see as fact.. C'mon.. Use a little common sense.. I think that should be the message sent out to people.. Take everything with a grain of salt.. Look at both sides of the story...

    Im over typing.. I think I have just wasted 15 minutes typing my thoughts..

    I probably wont be back to this thread..

    peace
    -mike

    -Deth Jester
    "Live each day like you will die tommorow, and dream like you will live forever..."
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  4. #64
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    A nice move from Mr Moore : He doesn't care you pirate his film!

    Lion's gate too doesn't care... so like him or not, he do something other director doesn't do :p (Tarentino said the same about his film where they're not distributed)

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    Why is it that anyone who doesn't like Moore, or his films, says that the guy just lies and bends the truth, that there are no facts backing his message...Take your head out of the sand ppl, facts like after being "elected", the pres. was on vaction for about 40% of the time until sep. 11, That he was "allowed" to leave the reserve (who else is allowed to leave a military service), along with a man that would latter serve as a financial advisor to the bin laden family, that in turn help George W. finance all his failed businesses, which, surprise, surprise, where oil companies. More facts? At a press confernce, the president said that they weren't too concerned with finding Osama...the man behind the group who attacked us. How about the fact that Bush Jr. wouldn't allow a private investigation into 9/11...a common practice, even when kennedy was assassinated. Throw in Haliburton, Defense contracts, the Patriot Act, the WMD (weapons of mass destructoin) lie...it boggles the mind :ep: The same republican party who wanted to impeach Clinton over a blowjob, are strangely silent on this...and don't get me started on the catholic church...I think we can remember there silent acceptance of the holocaust, as well as the numerous killings in the name of god...well, that is my cent and a half.... :dance:

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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by pender
    Why is it that anyone who doesn't like Moore, or his films, says that the guy just lies and bends the truth, that there are no facts backing his message...

    Could it be that people think this because he does do these things? Could it be that both sides lie and distort the facts and the truth? Points to ponder.

    b a t

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    I always find myself instinctively arrayed on the side of the barbarian, against the powers of organized civilization. -- Robert E. Howard

    Writer, illustrator and artist.
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  7. #67
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    i have seen it....it is very moving. keep an open mind and take from it what you can. It is worth your time. J

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    I've read what most of you've said here. Everyone in this thread is either saying they don't like George Bush or they don't like Michael Moore, or they take no sides and instead look at other sources for their information about the "real truths" going on.

    First off, no body knows the truth of shit about anything Moore says, or Bush says, or any source of information presents. If you aren't in Iraq personally to see shit, or if your not there to watch every foolish thing that Bush does, or if your not there to witness how Moore gathers his so-called "facts", then none of you or anyone knows any real truth about these topics. You can guess, wonder, spectulate, get into all these political debates, etc, but all you can do is realize shit based on what you've personally experienced first hand, living your life on this planet. Not by what you heard this big name guy say or based off what some article stated. And if anyone has any common sense, they'd realize that their are no good countries in this world. I say that because, any country with any real power has two main goals, to gain more land and more resources any way they can without destroying their credibility with their own people. No country is really for the people, and thy're especially not for any other people outside their own. They are only for more land and resources and all other luxuries that come with it. Therefore, what ever negative shit Moore says about Bush or our country, etc, shouldn't matter, and the info shouldn't be anything suprising or brand new. Countries will do what ever it takes to gain more land and resources, whether that be to kill innocent people, lie to their own people, work with America's so-called enemies, what ever. None of that shit matters as long as a country gains more land and resources. The more land and resources, the happier the people. ANd the people don't care how they get their shit either. They don't care how their country gets them their gas, or oil, or anything. As long as people have what they have, they're happy, and they'll also be as patriotic as possible for they're country to show just how happy they are to have their luxuries and they're so-called culture. And anyone who tries to explain how their country got those luxuries, is hated. Deemed unAmerican.

    People in society seem to be so oblivuous to reality, living their lives either believing that we are a true "civilized" people, and other nations are a bit primitive, so they deserve what havoc we give them. Or believing in all these far fetched and meaningless conspiracy ideas against this country. Humans are animals, There are no true civilized people. We pretend we are, but the majority is far from it. There is no real order in any society, only the belief that their is. We have what we have in this country because of primitive, animalistic behavior, now we live today believing that we're different now, and better than other nations. Yeah right. If Bush is an idiot, so what. If Moore exaggerates the truth, so what. The fact is, we are no different than any other country that we say is bad or primitive. Only, we're bigger and have more stuff, and more time to think and question shit. Which makes the government have to do things more slick, to keep the people believing in the country.

    Just be glad your over here than anywhere else. Anyways, thats my two-cents. I prolly sound like a ass. I'm only saying what I know.

    -C

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    I agree with 90% of what Chris just said to a point; media sources. In America our news sources are terribly biased, beyond a reasonable point in my opinion, however in *some* other countries there are unbiased sources of media, some of which do portray the ugly truth of this country and this world. I have personally experienced this through extended travel abroad. Also be thankful that our media isn't *too* biased, things could always be worse.

    b a t

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    I always find myself instinctively arrayed on the side of the barbarian, against the powers of organized civilization. -- Robert E. Howard

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  10. #70
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    a nod and a bow to chris and bat. preach it! I hear ya!.


    maldrin

    d a v i d p i n e

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    You guys will know NOTHING until you see Spider-man 2!!!!!!!!!!! :cool:

    -Joshua

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    Good points made by Chris there I would have liked to have made myself. One of the things that stuck with me most from the film was "people think they know, but they don't", pretty baisic statement but something I think everyone could do with hearing once in a while. I'm from the UK and I havn't had any previous experience of any of the moore stuff. I've been lucky enough to be ignorant of american politics, the coruptness of the world, in general of current affairs related to terrorism and the Iraq war etc. It made me feel sick that I had been making statements on this all like I knew it all though. The main feeling that film left me with was thankfullness, for everything I have, that I can just go and touch on these issues when it suits me, and then return to my ignorance and drawing. And i'm thankfull that these issues don't affect my life apart from in how much time i give to them,. Ofcourse i'm encouraged to take more of an interest in all these issues now, but I have the option of when I become involved in it. But also that if i'm going to enjoy such a trouble free life, that its the least I can do to make it the best I an be, perfect my abilities etc, and on that note time for some more drawing.

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  13. #73
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    I think Moore lies. If you really want to keep an "open mind" as Jason said I think you should read Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11


    Bush flew the Bin Laden family out of the US on 9/13, right? Nope

    Not president Bush's decision...Richard Clarke's (a published Bush critic) decision. Once again, Moore's own source proves him wrong.

    "After 9/11, I think the Saudis were perfectly justified ... in fearing the possibility of vigilantism against Saudis in this country. When they asked to evacuate their citizens ... I thought it was a perfectly normal request," he explained.

    In May, Clarke confessed that he, and he alone made the decision to approve the flyouts.

    A desperate Moore-fan has to really scramble over this one yet again to find some excuse for Moore to somehow not be lying here. But Clarke leave no room for honest mistake here.

    "It didn’t get any higher than me,” he told The Hill newspaper. "On 9/11, 9/12 and 9/13, many things didn’t get any higher than me. I decided it in consultation with the FBI.”

    and...

    "But the movie fails to mention that the FBI interviewed about 30 of the Saudis before they left. And the independent 9/11 commission has reported that “each of the flights we have studied was investigated by the FBI and dealt with in a professional manner prior to its departure"

    But what about Bush and Sadi Arabia? Nope

    "Moore points out the distressingly close relationship between Saudi Arabia’s ambassador, Prince Bandar, and the Bush family. But Moore does not explain that Bandar has been a bipartisan Washington power broker for decades, and that Bill Clinton repeatedly relied on Bandar to advance Clinton’s own Middle East agenda."

    "Moore derives the $1.4 billion figure from journalist Craig Unger’s book, “House of Bush, House of Saud.” Nearly 90 percent of that amount, $1.18 billion, comes from just one source: contracts in the early to mid-1990’s that the Saudi Arabian government awarded to a U.S. defense contractor, BDM, for training the country’s military and National Guard. What’s the significance of BDM? The firm at the time was owned by the Carlyle Group, the powerhouse private-equity firm whose Asian-affiliate advisory board has included the president’s father, George H.W. Bush.

    ...The main problem with this figure, according to Carlyle spokesman Chris Ullman, is that former president Bush didn’t join the Carlyle advisory board until April, 1998—five months after Carlyle had already sold BDM to another defense firm."

    But what about the oil pipe line in Afg-? Nope

    "Whatever the motive, the Unocal pipeline project was entirely a Clinton-era proposal: By 1998, as the Taliban hardened its positions, the U.S. oil company pulled out of the deal. By the time George W. Bush took office, it was a dead issue—and no longer the subject of any lobbying in Washington."


    Moore is a liar and beliving his lies doesnt make you "open minded" or "objective" or "a true Patriot" Questioning the Govt. is great but dont forget to question everyone else.

    Also check out http://www.bowlingfortruth.com

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  14. #74
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    i don't think posting the findings of a site devoted to disproving moore makes sense as a persuasive arguement; much like posting the arguements of michael moore's site to prove otherwise. personally i dont see the big deal in disproving moore... if no one believed a word out of his mouth or wasnt curious, no one would have seen his movie. obviously it has hit some sort of nerve in some americans.

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    Seb, I think you should take some time to come up with a real response to the facts I have presented, rather than just dismiss me. My point is Moore is a liar, whats your point?

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    my point is that you cant take information from places like michaelmooreisamoron.com or michaelmooreisagenius.com and present it as both credible and unbiased. personally i have no desire to take part in a partisian pissing contest again seeing as how most other ones become shouting matches(although some people do take the time to compose coherent and courteous posts). i just noticed too that you registered to make those two posts. thats a pretty smart idea to use in engaging in sensitive topics.

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    I've seen the movie twice. There's nothing I can say that Helium hasn't already said better than I ever possibly could. I'm sure someone can make an argument for every point made in the movie, but Bush has far too many skeletons that he keeps trying, unsuccessfully, to keep in the closet. The fact alone that he vehemently refuses to answer the "hard questions" is proof enough to me that he's guilty. Couple that with the fact that he can barely string enough words together to form a coherent sentence, and I'm utterly convinced that this dipshit isn't in any position to lead.

    Give it time, in a few years, maybe he'll even be held accountable for the blatant reaming he's giving this country. I can dream, at least.

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    I dont see how this can turn into a "partisian pissing contest" Saying Moore is a liar and presenting proof doesnt have anything to do with political party affiliation. Many Democrats say "I agree with what Moore is trying to do but his lies and half-truths do nothing but discredit us." And I agree with them.

    You said "my point is that you cant take information from places like michaelmooreisamoron.com or michaelmooreisagenius.com and present it as both credible and unbiased." But re-read the first part in my first post. It contains nothing but quotes from Richard Clarke (a published Bush critic) and he says that he was the one who flew out the Saudis, not Bush. A published Bush critic is saying this. This information is credible and unbiased.

    No need to start a shouting match, I'm just clarifiying my point and asking you to clarify yours. Have a nice day.

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    Jason Manley's Avatar
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    The movie brought up a lot of things which we all need to be aware of. Yes, it was slanted, but it makes us go and look further into the information we have in order to understand what is truly going on. we are not all mindless people. we can take the information from both sides and make up our minds for ourselves. My mind is made up. Im voting for kerry. I did not make that decision based on the movie. However, certain points made during that film definitely solidified that decision even more.

    the homeland security act has to go. i doubt it will...but it has to. I heard a computer manufacturer today talking about a phone call they got for equipment in regards to the fed's flying over cities and snatching everything they can from wireless airwaves...the joke was they were stealing credit card info but the fact is that it is an invasion of our privacy as citizens. I am tired of it. Moore's points about the act were valid.

    one of the primary reasons bush and his regime need to go is personal for me. Stem Cel research is something which can help people more than anything in medical science right now. A few years ago, my best friends grandmother had a stroke. She went from a grumpy old lady to a slightly paralyzed woman with the mind of a six year old. She spent two years like that...going thru physical therapy and basically being happy regardless of her situation. I remember showing her artwork to get her responses because they were so honest and childlike. After two years she was flown to boston for a limited research program in stem cel research and its applications. Stem cels can become any cel in the body. To my understanding, they injected raw stem cels to the part of her brain which was damaged. The next morning she awoke (with the newspaper press there) and her mind was sound again. within days, she was literally back to where she was before she had the stroke. The theory was that the new cels had removed the roadblocks of the dead cels...at least that is how I understand it. she completely recovered from BRAIN DAMAGE. while the press was there...the first thing out of her mouth was..."I want to have sex" LOL. True story. This is the kind of thing that can help many sick people. Too bad the christian right opposes it. Strangely the person it helped whom I know is part of a family of hard core jehovas witnesses. The reason she suffered as much damage as she did was because they did not want to take her to the hospital for religious reasons. After the fact, they were given a second chance. The program works. It needs to be allowed to continue to do so.

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    partisian pissing contest is somewhat of a misnomer, i agree. i made a generalization of the people that have conflicting and most likely unchanging opinions on moore and the related topics of president bush, the war in iraq, etc. it seems that people either think moore brings up some interesting ideas or that everything out of his mouth is complete and utter bs. i think that it is rash to throw the proverbial baby out with bathwater and claim that his movie is nothing but fabrications and lies; conversely i think that it is a sign of not being able to think for one's self if you take his movie as being the absolute truth. i agree with a republican national stategist that fahrenheit 911 is just entertainment for people that dislike bush. to continue with that thought, what type of people seriously expect to go to the local cinema to catch up on current events?

    these threads really don't accomplish much. the previous ones have been people going after bush or moore or agreeing with someone else or saying something inane. it goes no where even though some people take the time to post long and thought out replies. and i doubt that there is any piece of information that will make people change their minds either way. one downside of the polarization of american.... lets hope that we dont repeat what happened the last time this country was so divided.

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    Bush actually gave a speech praising stem cell research and talking about all the good it can do, then then pretty much says "BUT my religious beliefs..."

    Pretty silly. But I'm sure you can make up your own mind...

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0010809-2.html

    Last edited by Groover McNab; July 8th, 2004 at 07:15 PM.
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    religion has no place in dictating how the rest of us should live. there is nothing wrong with religious beliefs, but once they are imposed on others, something should be done. i believe it has to do with some people's strong belief that we are a christian nation and that they know what is best for us. that is dangerous dangerous stuff.

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    True Seb, Fact is.. this IS NOT a christian nation. It is a nation with christians in it. This power play by the religious right that is going on has me exasperated and fearful of a new impending dark age.

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    Slanted as it was, lies if there were, the most telling scene that sums up this mans agenda was given no pretext or facts to be hashed out or disputed. He stands in his tuxedo at podium in front of a pristine audience and states:

    "This is an impressive crowd -- the haves ... and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite; I call you my base."

    Signed, sealed, delivered.

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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    FOR THE MOMENT YOU"VE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR, MY REVIEW!!!!

    didn't like the beginning or end, but liked the middle. it was biased of course, but i think thats pretty much a given. i'm sure there will be anti-farenheit movies out soon. in a world without unbiased news sources, the best we can hope for is for wackos on both sides to balance each other out.

    the good:
    The Iraq war parts [edit: the largest part of the movie i might add] were the best. he made the best points here. wether deliberate or a mistake, it was still the wrong decision and Bush should be held accountable. and i'm a guy who was for the war, and now think was a total mistake. Bush has fucked up or lied in nearly every way imaginable.

    the way our shit media in this country reports the news. a disgrace. when they report that X soldiers were wounded, that means X soldiers had limbs blown off and other horrible injuries, not just scratches.



    the 'meh':
    the florida election. i've seen articles that say bush wins in every recount, and moore shows some articles that say gore did. All anyone knows for sure is that the whole thing was a dirty embarrassing mess for both sides and the country. get rid of the electoral system.

    9/11-afghanistan. All he convinced me here is that Bush is a typical politician. A royal fuckwad that is too tied to corporate money (in this case the sauds) to care for what the people want (but what politician isn't?). He failed to show any link whatsoever connecting the saudis (including the bin ladin family) to Osama bin Laden. what's he trying to say, anyway, that Bush conspired with Osama to cause 9/11? that since Bush was born the Saudis were planning a takeover of the white house? Is it all for oil or military contracts or both and if so how can Bush be considered anything but brilliant for pulling off such a convolluted conspiracy? one minute he says the reason we went after afghanistan was to appease a bloodthirsty public, the next he says its because of a pipeline. Nothing really matches up. He isn't really saying anything here. he's just throwing a lot of conspiracy theories at the wall to see what sticks. also some of the facts were wrong i hear. Halliburton didnt have that contract to build a pipeline through afghanistan, but a contract to build a rival pipeline through Iran.


    the bad:

    the rich vs. poor bullshit. i didn't know people could sign their kids up for military service. that whole congressman recruiting stuff was populist garbage. the fact is that as long as the poor view the military as a way out, poor people will make up the majority of the military. why would a wealthy kid join the military? other than to serve his country, there is no logical reason. it was this way before Bush, and it won't change in a million years, and just because you don't have a kid in the military doesnt mean you are incapable of making military decisions.

    i was put off by how he made out the soldiers to be total assholes in parts. talking about what music they play as they go into a fight, and interlacing it with civilian casualties is pure propaganda bullshit. Whether you agree with them or not, they believed they were going in to kill the bad guys. I'd be pretty psyched about that, too. I'd be blasting out metal music while killing evil terrorists by the dozen with a smile on my face. they are definately naive, but not callous. and despite the slanted view of the movie, the majority of the military will be voting republican next election.

    I think the only thing i came out of the movie with is the opinion that the problem is much larger than Bush. Its systemic. Getting him out of office won't change much.


    Oh well, Britney for president!

    Last edited by MrSmith; July 10th, 2004 at 01:14 AM.
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  26. #86
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    What's garbage about populism?

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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    oh noes! those evil rich people are out to eat your babies!!!

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    Really, I'm not so much concerned with them eating my babies as I am concerned about them polluting the planet in which my children shall inherit, forcing the disparity between the haves and the have-nots so that my children will not have the opportunities I and those like me have been afforded and an increasingly distant political elitism that further marginalizes the lower and middle classes to the point of apathy and ignorance. Not that rich individuals themselves are at fault for those precise infractions, but the corporations they own have a significant role in the majority of the world?s ills, and their greed (generalization) tips societal structures from the ideal of equality to the acquisition of further wealth. As can be noted from history, the wealthy and powerful are remarkable advocates of the status quo, consequentially involving themselves in initiatives that allow them to acquire additional wealth, coincidentally at the expense of the significantly less wealthy segments of the population. Being that 90% of the nations wealth is owned by less than 10% of the population, I would deduce that the struggles and cause of populism are more than relevant in creating a system, both governmentally and socio-economically that is more equitable to the general population and not concentrating such wealth at the top tier who then in turn influence policy to suit their agendas. I doubt that it can be denied that such an existent upper echelon of society has made no infraction against the lower classes when it comes to issues of economic growth. In fact I would argue that the majority of the world suffers due to the inherent nature of capitalism, which populism tends to argue the reining in of. Not that capitalism is inherently an evil system as preached by certain ideologues, but as for any economic structure is fair game for the vices of humanity to have free play with. Populism argues from the point of the oppressed or the "masses", which may be tired Marxist phraseology, but offers a legitimate point dealing with any scenario from macro-economic issues as world trade, to local phenomena of available assistance for the homeless or de-institutionalized. Being that populism is the antithesis of elitism or aristocracy (which could both be argued to exist in this nation) I would assume that the theoretical basis as well as the practical application or social goal of populism is well legitimized.

    Indeed the historical fact of the poor being the backbone of the military has remained. This I think would reinforce the notion of the relevance and reach of populism. I think it?s rather undeniable that a system comprised of oligarchs, whether in intention or by coincidence, would not inherently utilize the energy of a marginalized class. Sub par public education and elimination of the domestic job base, along with the under funding of public health and infrastructure neglect, destroys the primary progressive mechanism in an upwardly mobile society. Who might be responsible for the policies that ignore the poor and the dispossessed? Who would trade public good for increased profit margins? Who has the most to gain not only from a system that inherently keeps the lowest in their place, while reaping the enormous payoffs from service cuts and price gouging, but also gains when public funds are redirected towards a private sector through tax cuts and federal subsidies? Who holds all the money when the issue of campaign finance is raised? Who controls the lobbying power to affect policy towards the removal of environmental protection or workers rights? Who sits on the boards of major defense contractors, who directly gain from the utilization of massively expensive weapons systems at the expense of public funding? Who sits on the boards of major media corporations and conversely in the seats of the capitol, the white house and the highest court? One may argue the romanticism or naiveté of class warfare or the notions of populism. But when dissected and broken down to facts of who is in control and who is subjugated, whether it be militarily or economically, those who profit at the expense of the land, human life, and democracy are indeed to blame. Call them the rich, call them the elite, call them plutocrats or oligarchs, they stand atop the majority of the world's population who subsist on less than a dollar a day, acquiring markets, wealth and power, failing to redirect much needed funds and resources towards the ills of humanity, in turn for profit. If I have to choose who to rally behind, those who would hope and work for a progressive campaign of social, economic and political equality, or those who would turn a blind eye to the plight of the dispossessed and embrace social Darwinism, I shall indeed be in support of the previous.

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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    oye.. sorry I've done it again.

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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    ok this thread is about to take a major turn into intellectual masturbation.

    but before i start, i would separate the terms "rich" and "elite". anyway...

    I dont disagree with you on much of what you say. I do disagree with this belief that the wealthy only become so at the expense of "the land, human life, and democracy". In many cases this is true, in many it isn't. In any case, 90% of the wealth in 10% percent of the population is grossly inefficient to be sure. However, generalization in the form of populism ultimately does little to combat the problem.

    IMO populism is little more than a typical "us vs. them" oversimplification used to herd the masses around by greedy individuals in search of their own power. Too often supposed populists aren't interested in the public welfare at all.

    "Its their fault things are like this, not yours" is a big lie told over and over again by all kinds of revolutionaries when trying to gain their own power. This is the cheap political tactic politicians and others (like Moore) often resort to that I have a problem with. I have a problem with the fake revolutionaries who use populism to simply replace one power class with another and call it progress.

    Populist rhetoric does not ease the suffering of the masses, it only gives the masses a villain to blame and a belief that if "they" were somehow removed from power, everything would be great. For a small portion of the masses, maybe it would be better, as they would form the new power class. But most would just be shuffled back into the pool to await the next rebel to lead them to nowhere.

    In this case, Moore often sinks to populist rhetoric to appeal to people's emotions, not their intelligence. I think this is a form of talking down to the viewer (and somewhat elitist I might add). He doesn't even need to do it, the facts presented often speak for themselves. The stunt of chasing down congressmen is a cheap trick.

    I wrote some more, but I'm saving it for my manifesto to be published independantly from my shack in Montana.

    Last edited by MrSmith; July 10th, 2004 at 05:33 AM.
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