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  1. #61
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    Man you guys really just have a very, VERY US-American point of viewing things in here. And no Ill not elaborate on that, cause elaborating it will not make it any clearer than that.Aside from that I know these kinds of conversations, you guys have going here, in and out and they never, in the long history of internet (and offline as well) pseudo-intellectual discussions, ever worked out in any way or fashion ... I read quite a lot of your stuff ( given not all) but what I see here - and I know stating this never is a smart move cause people cant simply take this (I am no exclusion to that rule) - is just the usual people that " read some books" ... "crossed some interesting ideas" ...." got the grasp of something" but in the end you never really process all these things to real ends, most in here just scratch the surface of a million ideas and never really understand the complete underlying mechanics ...its a problem in our times that the part of the society that is young and sort of intellectual also is very impatient and impulsive these days.

    This impatience led to an erosion of thoughts that has reached dangerous levels some years ago and is getting worse, people more and more ( speaking of those that have the intellectual capacities to actually contribute) tend to rather DO things then take their time in silence and process things to some degree ....the outcome ? - Conversations like this - where in the end the real goal is not a discussion with the goal to enlighten oneself and/or others , to grow personal knowledge or to humbly accept that one might have weak spots where others might add something better then oneself has to offer . No in the end its one particular feeling that especially drives the motivation of people that start and/or add to the "subject" of said discusions - this feeling is not easy to describe: its a series of events that in the end only has the purpose to self-affirm oneself and to boost your own ego, people come in such threads and start to throw around names they heard, books they "read", papers they browsed and feel REALLY involved in the things, they get they feeling to really have a deep and thoughtful conversation going,making really strong points, but they simple dont. But they cant admit that to themselves nor to others.

    And right there we have the problem ...no one EVER admits that this might actually be the incentive for most of this stuff, but this leads only to one thing , and this one thing only, that all that time you invest , all that effort is wasted, because what you got in the end is a bunch of half-cooked, shallow ideas mingled together in a fashion that doesnt really add to any of the existing problems and doesnt open up a new discourse. All you get is that nice feeling, a shot so to say, that feeling " damn ! today I made some really strong points, I am damn smart" and you settle with this, you are pleased and move on, waiting for the next opportunity. Not seeing that its actually just shallow.

    The real problem I have with such things is that I see the potential wasted and I dont actually get why people tend to act that way - maybe its our fast paced times, maybe the fact that its enough to get along and people tend to settle for mediocrity even if its mediocrity on a high level, but in the end its just wasted potential to really get your heads together and actually coming up with something that is more than just a bunch up stuff mingled together for the good feeling of " I have done something really smart" ...

    Really disappointing, thats what this whole situation is. And the most disappointing of it all is the fact that this probably aint gonna change any time soon . People simple cant take any criticism anymore when it comes to the most basic things they believe in, you say to them " I think all you have here is just really basic , half cooked, in parts even not that smart at all" ....and they instantaneously go " Fuck that dude, he knows nothing about me!" What I mean is ...people only value their own image of themselves today, every little umbrage of doubt expressed by anyone just gets rejected. ( again I myself have hardtimes with that, if at all I am just the smallest bit further , I aknowledge the fact - REALLY aknowledge - that I am that flawed and I try to catch myself when I act like that, but its still hard)

    Anyways keep mingling guys and gals. If it makes you feel good.

    Last edited by Partisan; October 9th, 2012 at 11:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Partisan View Post
    Man you guys really just have a ......
    I think you make a great observation and I (for one) appreciate you having written it out. You're probably right about the uselessness of forum discussion (and the shallowness of modern thought), but not entirely. In small ways, it can make contributions, but in the bang for the buck... probably not. Is there a way to combat the short attention span of the modern person? Or the arrogance? I wrote in the book (the thread started because I have spent years learning and reflecting and wrote my own book) that there is so much knowledge available, it is beyond the lifetime of a single human to even know it all, let alone comprehend the implications. There is just SO MUCH information. How can we process it all??

    I do need to respond to JFierces comment on the video. I'm enjoying that discussion.

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    It's an internet forum. Your kind of expecting some deep discussion that will change the world? People exchange random ideas throw around some text or speakers. Someone makes a counterpoint, learn something or try to counterpoint back. It's how it works.




    and yes don't get me wrong jetpack, Looking back I'm typing pretty bluntly. I'm enjoying the discussion. The video review was more so me thinking outloud to the guy. Not me typing 'at' you. Because I was speaking very sarcastically in quite a bit lol.

    I'm not 'pro-american' as much as I just don't think we're going to be disestablishing the government anytime in the near future.

    Last edited by JFierce; October 9th, 2012 at 11:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Partisan View Post
    Man you guys really just have a very, VERY US-American point of viewing things in here. And no Ill not elaborate on that, cause elaborating it will not make it any clearer than that.Aside from that I know these kinds of conversations, you guys have going here, in and out and they never, in the long history of internet (and offline as well) pseudo-intellectual discussions, ever worked out in any way or fashion ... I read quite a lot of your stuff ( given not all) but what I see here - and I know stating this never is a smart move cause people cant simply take this (I am no exclusion to that rule) - is just the usual people that " read some books" ... "crossed some interesting ideas" ...." got the grasp of something" but in the end you never really process all these things to real ends, most in here just scratch the surface of a million ideas and never really understand the complete underlying mechanics ...its a problem in our times that the part of the society that is young and sort of intellectual also is very impatient and impulsive these days.

    This impatience led to an erosion of thoughts that has reached dangerous levels some years ago and is getting worse, people more and more ( speaking of those that have the intellectual capacities to actually contribute) tend to rather DO things then take their time in silence and process things to some degree ....the outcome ? - Conversations like this - where in the end the real goal is not a discussion with the goal to enlighten oneself and/or others , to grow personal knowledge or to humbly accept that one might have weak spots where others might add something better then oneself has to offer . No in the end its one particular feeling that especially drives the motivation of people that start and/or add to the "subject" of said discusions - this feeling is not easy to describe: its a series of events that in the end only has the purpose to self-affirm oneself and to boost your own ego, people come in such threads and start to throw around names they heard, books they "read", papers they browsed and feel REALLY involved in the things, they get they feeling to really have a deep and thoughtful conversation going,making really strong points, but they simple dont. But they cant admit that to themselves nor to others.

    And right there we have the problem ...no one EVER admits that this might actually be the incentive for most of this stuff, but this leads only to one thing , and this one thing only, that all that time you invest , all that effort is wasted, because what you got in the end is a bunch of half-cooked, shallow ideas mingled together in a fashion that doesnt really add to any of the existing problems and doesnt open up a new discourse. All you get is that nice feeling, a shot so to say, that feeling " damn ! today I made some really strong points, I am damn smart" and you settle with this, you are pleased and move on, waiting for the next opportunity. Not seeing that its actually just shallow.

    The real problem I have with such things is that I see the potential wasted and I dont actually get why people tend to act that way - maybe its our fast paced times, maybe the fact that its enough to get along and people tend to settle for mediocrity even if its mediocrity on a high level, but in the end its just wasted potential to really get your heads together and actually coming up with something that is more than just a bunch up stuff mingled together for the good feeling of " I have done something really smart" ...

    Really disappointing, thats what this whole situation is. And the most disappointing of it all is the fact that this probably aint gonna change any time soon . People simple cant take any criticism anymore when it comes to the most basic things they believe in, you say to them " I think all you have here is just really basic , half cooked, in parts even not that smart at all" ....and they instantaneously go " Fuck that dude, he knows nothing about me!" What I mean is ...people only value their own image of themselves today, every little umbrage of doubt expressed by anyone just gets rejected. ( again I myself have hardtimes with that, if at all I am just the smallest bit further , I aknowledge the fact - REALLY aknowledge - that I am that flawed and I try to catch myself when I act like that, but its still hard)

    Anyways keep mingling guys and gals. If it makes you feel good.
    Oh, oh! Made you look long enough to post something!

    Let's go backwards: Do you think my country, the USA, maintaining military bases in your country, Germany, oppresses you in any way? ('cause, I'd just as soon not be paying to keep them there!)

    What can we do to get my country's soldiers out of your country?

    In your country, do you see yourself as a "slave?"

    Do you see your equivalent of municipal/county police as out of control violent oppressors?

    Do you conduct your daily job, social, and recreational activities the way you do out of fear of your berserk out of control police?

    Do you think that your local and federal government would be better replaced by a state of anarchy where people can wander around and just cooperate (somehow) with each other?

    Do you think your currency is going to collapse in the next 3 years?

    What do ya think of Merkel-- are the Greeks just being a bunch of irresponsible ungrateful bitches?

    Did you ever get stuck having to read Hobbes' Leviathan?

    Yeah! You got that Autobahn and can drive as fast as you want. Welllllll, We got OBAMA PHONES!



    Last edited by Kamber Parrk; October 10th, 2012 at 12:25 AM.
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  5. #65
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    Corporations are evil! Politics is economics by other means! The concept of school itself defies logic! Human nature is the culprit, and I address this in my book!

    Its like reality but easier to understand, and it shifts books!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    Corporations are evil! Politics is economics by other means! The concept of school itself defies logic! Human nature is the culprit, and I address this in my book!

    Its like reality but easier to understand, and it shifts books!
    "I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.

    Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "

    "But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.

    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

    "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

    "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master that's all."

    Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again.


    --from Through the Looking Glass

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  7. #67
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    That's right VK. . .

    Robocop's the MODEL!

    You Brits and your cops with their silly little helmets and neon vests--- pfffft!

    When King County eventually phases out dumpy guys with Glocks drivin' around in Crown Vics,

    we'll get these suckers, and I'll be a much more productive wage slave:



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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    Oh, oh! Made you look long enough to post something!

    Let's go backwards: Do you think my country, the USA, maintaining military bases in your country, Germany, oppresses you in any way? ('cause, I'd just as soon not be paying to keep them there!)

    What can we do to get my country's soldiers out of your country?

    In your country, do you see yourself as a "slave?"

    Do you see your equivalent of municipal/county police as out of control violent oppressors?

    Do you conduct your daily job, social, and recreational activities the way you do out of fear of your berserk out of control police?

    Do you think that your local and federal government would be better replaced by a state of anarchy where people can wander around and just cooperate (somehow) with each other?

    Do you think your currency is going to collapse in the next 3 years?

    What do ya think of Merkel-- are the Greeks just being a bunch of irresponsible ungrateful bitches?

    Did you ever get stuck having to read Hobbes' Leviathan?

    Yeah! You got that Autobahn and can drive as fast as you want. Welllllll, We got OBAMA PHONES!
    proven my point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Partisan View Post
    proven my point.
    Oh, the irony in saying this!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    "
    Ha ha?
    Oh wait you're serious. Using words like evil without even a hint of irony... Ive read more nuanced political analysis in the Bronze Age philosophy of the Bible.
    I am a bit disappointed since this actually is a very good argument against Jetpack and nobody seems to be really bothered with it. Focusing yourself on the evil is apophatic theology at its best. It usually boils down to the assumption that that what is good is, god, common sense, public opinion or whatever ridiculous term you want to give to it. It finds its roots in the false assumption that men have the capacity to a priori distinguish evil. Good in this case is the ability to identify evil and intervene with it.

    This I think is what is wrong with Jetpack's argument:

    This focus on the other (evil) in Jetpack's writing brings you indeed to the master-slave dialect he is using. However in order for this other to exist you would need a radical other(le Tout-Autre) more commonly known as god.
    To put in other words, every attempt to make a coherent view on ethics using this method will be a religious one (because it cannot exist without the acknowledgment of the radical other). Because it is religious, the word evil used within the context of Jetpack's argument isn't to be read as an ironic statement, but as a religious statement that has to be taken very seriously. I would go so far to say, that any attempt to use irony, will result in an even stronger faith in the existence of the radical other.

    This is where it gets curious. Because his definition of good comes from his definition of evil, his ethics can be put in the same discourse as that of evil and will stand or fall by the same axioms. Any attempt to 'fight' evil using those set of ethics will only further confirm the existence of the radical other and will do exactly the opposite of what Jetpack seems to want.

    So far my very, VERY US-American point of viewing things in here made possible by my enormous ego

    Last edited by D.Labruyere; October 10th, 2012 at 01:35 PM.
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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    Oh, the irony in saying this!
    And again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Partisan View Post
    And again.
    .....



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    evil things are bad!

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.Labruyere View Post
    I am a bit disappointed since this actually is a very good argument against Jetpack and nobody seems to be really bothered with it. Focusing yourself on the evil is apophatic theology at its best. It usually boils down to the assumption that that what is good is, god, common sense, public opinion or whatever ridiculous term you want to give to it. It finds its roots in the false assumption that men have the capacity to a priori distinguish evil. Good in this case is the ability to identify evil and intervene with it.

    This I think is what is wrong with Jetpack's argument:

    This focus on the other (evil) in Jetpack's writing brings you indeed to the master-slave dialect he is using. However in order for this other to exist you would need a radical other(le Tout-Autre) more commonly known as god.
    To put in other words, every attempt to make a coherent view on ethics using this method will be a religious one (because it cannot exist without the acknowledgment of the radical other). Because it is religious, the word evil used within the context of Jetpack's argument isn't to be read as an ironic statement, but as a religious statement that has to be taken very seriously. I would go so far to say, that any attempt to use irony, will result in an even stronger faith in the existence of the radical other.

    This is where it gets curious. Because his definition of good comes from his definition of evil, his ethics can be put in the same discourse as that of evil and will stand or fall by the same axioms. Any attempt to 'fight' evil using those set of ethics will only further confirm the existence of the radical other and will do exactly the opposite of what Jetpack seems to want.

    So far my very, VERY US-American point of viewing things in here made possible by my enormous ego
    It's the "without even a hint of irony" part.

    I found jetpack's slave graphic to be mildly amusing. I was looking at it as perhaps light satire or hyperbole. Somewhere in the multiple walls of text you see that he views "democracy" as corrupt and, indeed, is opposed to the very idea of "government." He doesn't believe there should be any government.

    He actually believes, literally, that the relationship of U.S. citizens to their government is one of "slavery." This is irrational.

    So, he's an anarchist by whatever name. Well, when you float the proposition of "no government" you invite the counter point of how and why governments come into being. On an American-centric note: if you've taken any university level Poli-Sci classes, here in the States, (which I'm thinking jetpack probably has not done) a good first knee-jerk reaction to such a proposition is to say "well, what about Hobbes?"

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    Not being an american citizen I never took any university level Poli-Sci class but I get the idea. What I don't understand is the direct link to Hobbes. Hobbes ideas have been modified many times and I think his versions are outdated. My initial reaction to "what about Hobbes?" would be, "what about Rousseau?" or even better, what about any contemporary philosophy about the same subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.Labruyere View Post
    Not being an american citizen I never took any university level Poli-Sci class but I get the idea. What I don't understand is the direct link to Hobbes. Hobbes ideas have been modified many times and I think his versions are outdated. My initial reaction to "what about Hobbes?" would be, "what about Rousseau?" or even better, what about any contemporary philosophy about the same subject.
    Contemporary philosophy on the subject involves the work of a guy named Rawls. Awhile ago, I took a Philosophy course at the University of Illinois at Chicago that I believe was entitled "Social Contract Theory," of all things. Rawls was the central thinker we focused on and we ended up having to study all the precursors: Rousseau, Locke, and Thomas Hobbes. I still have my copy of Locke's Second Treatise On Government, but I unfortunately don't have the Rawls book anymore or my old copy of Leviathan.

    My focus on Hobbes for the instant discussion centers on the situation where no government exists-- his "State Of Nature"-- a place per his famous quote:

    "In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain, and consequently, not culture of the earth, no navigation, nor the use of commodities that may be imported by sea, no commodious building, no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force, no knowledge of the face of the earth, no account of time, no arts, no letters, no society, and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

    Such are the (theoretical) conditions that cause people to delegate/submit a certain level of authority to a sovereign for their greater good and security.

    My argument against jetpack is that the "success" of Anarchy would most likely just plunge us, momentarily, into a State Of Nature where people would again form alliances and create some form of central/sovereign authority for their greater good.

    As you've observed, SCT has LOTs of problems! It would be fair say that Hobbes was creating a "rationalization" for monarchy. And, as jetpack has observed, there is the problem of those born into the "contract" as well as your earlier observations re women, who at the time would've have probably been somewhere between horses and negro slaves in their overall level of social rank (barring royalty, I suppose!)

    But, Rawls would be the place to start if you really really wanted to dig into to this.

    As to intellectual pretense-- I've forgotten too damn much stuff to get into any of the more nuanced aspects of the thing! (And, as the song goes-- "don't no much about the French I took" either!)

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    To be honest it looks like the typical worldview of someone who just took freshman year sociology in college.

    Anyone who claims to be a slave in America is a dunce. You have more freedom than the people taking rifle stocks to the face on a daily basis in other parts of the world. Regardless of the red tape and bureaucratic mess, there's nobody holding you back from being happy. Your life isn't wanting because "the system" is keeping you down.

    If you want to free your mind and your body, get into (real) science. I would make the assertion that it and its methodology in conjunction with logic has been the most powerful tool for man's liberation, of the body and mind, in the West. This social science crap of finding evidence to support preconceptions is what's holding people back. It serves ideologies, not unlike superstitions and religions, that play on one's disappointments and prejudices.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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