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  1. #1
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    art as terrorism



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  3. #2
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    Having lived in austin and watched many of Alex Jones' shows including his prediction of the 9/11 attacks i would say this is most likely very true.

    Scary stuff :0
    power of the tablet!

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    Well, I know this story is true, I'm from Buffalo. You can't read the entire articles, but here's a link to our local paper with the headlines and snippits refering to this story.

    http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/...xt_advanced-0=(%22Steven%20Kurtz%22)&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_dat e&xcal_useweights=no

    Very scary stuff indeed.
    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?

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    Wow! It stuck a smiley in that... well if you want to check it out go here:

    http://www.buffalonews.com/newslibrary/

    Then search for "Steven Kurtz" and you'll get the articles.
    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?

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    Well, lets think about this. A man's wife has a heart attack during the night. A paramedic rushes into the house to help her and sees lab equipment in his house. Now, the paramedic has no idea what the hell it is, all he knows is that it frightens him and doesn't like it being in his hometown. So, he called the police, the police identify it. They know what it is, but don't know what the man is doing with it. The man claims its for art but why would the ignorant policemen believe that? All they know is that testtubes and lab equipment is not art. Heres where go to the point of no return: the word has gotten out about a psycho with lab equipment in his house. Now the whole town knows, and now the police know that the man is a legit art professer, but how do the police explain that they were wrong? They don't. Heres an example of what I'm talking about: Your parents ask you to go to the store. You don't, you go to the record store to check out some CDs.
    When you get back they ask, "Wheres the grocerys? You didn't go to the store did you?".
    You'd probably say, "Well...I technically went to the "store", it was just the record store...".
    Basically, the police try to justify their actions by pointing out technical shit which can be interpreted anyway you want. And since 9/11, there has been so much patriotism that you can't get people listen about these type of situations. They think you're crazy. So there is not way to fight authority.

    Also, here is another link about a 15 year old kid who was punished making a drawing with an anti-war message.
    http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/04/2...vestigated.ap/

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    From what i can gather, it seems to me the way the government is playing it, is that a person under suspicion is guilty untill proven innocent. Meaning that they would rather search seize and imprison a totally innocent man than let a real terrorist go free. So this man who had equipment might be a terrorist, they dont know, but the fact he could be one is all the probable cause they need, to detain, search, seize, etc. They would rather not put an innocent man through all that, but better safe than sorry.

    Now i can understand the reasoning behind a viewpoint like that. Its the most efficent way to deal with "terrorists", all potential threats are dealt with and any serious ones are found out quickly and with minimum effort. Now the problem with a system like that it treats all citizens like terrorists, that it violates a citizens constitutional rights. Just because its part of the patriot act doesnt mean its constitutional.

    The problem with a system like that is that it is an efficent tool to be used by the government. Which means its very efficent at doing good, and in reverse very efficent at doing bad. And right now apparently people are willing to accept the "bad" for the "good" it could cause. Basically trading liberties for security.

    If you ask me Terrorist is becoming the new "Communist" almost like a word they can stamp onto anything they want to, in turn making their actions acceptable to the public's eyes.
    power of the tablet!

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    Originally posted by Retinal Haze
    From what i can gather, it seems to me the way the government is playing it, is that a person under suspicion is guilty untill proven innocent.
    That's exactly right, at least when it comes to terrorism investigations. And in one swift Homeland Security inspired move we have pissed all over the system we once held so dear. Just look at the 1200 people we held without being charged after 9/11. Even worse, look at Benamar Benatta who, although being cleared of 9/11 involvement in November 2001 and the prosecutor dropped all charges, was STILL in prison as of March (anyone know if he is out yet?). They said he was still detained because he hadn't posted his $25,000 bail yet... not only could he not afford it, but why would someone have to post bail if they aren't charged with anything?

    Anyway, it's just another example of how 9/11 paranoia has led our government to bend the constitution a bit.

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    If you ask me Terrorist is becoming the new "Communist" almost like a word they can stamp onto anything they want to, in turn making their actions acceptable to the public's eyes.
    Truth. The second article is pissing me off, because I'm fifteen... We can have controversial opinions, right?

    Ah well, that article hit the spot. :evilbat:

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    We need to get rid of the patriot act.

    It's anything but patriotic.

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  12. #11
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    Originally posted by seb
    http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,...w=wn_tophead_1

    the son of patriot act
    jebus
    thats some fucked up shit

    everyone better start practicing their goose stepping...
    -------
    I wont fail now

  13. #12
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    Originally posted by seb
    http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,...w=wn_tophead_1

    the son of patriot act
    the phrase "Last year, a Patriot Act II provision was slipped into the Intelligence Authorization Act of 2004 at the last minute and passed quickly before legislators opposed to it had time to fully examine it." really makes me wonder what these people are doing? It's their JOB to examine it...is it saying they passed it without realizing what they were passing?

    I say we start electing monkeys into congress. At least they wouldn't introduce any legislature that was too harmful or slippery.

  14. #13
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    in the same vein. acts of "terror" against a sf gallery owner

    http://www.kron.com/Global/story.asp?S=1905001
    Last edited by seb; June 14th, 2004 at 09:24 PM.

  15. #14
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    Originally posted by seb
    in the same vein. acts of "terror" against a sf gallery owner

    http://www.kron.com/Global/story.asp?S=1905001

    "SFPD says that the crime hasn't been classified as a hate crime"

    instead of a "nice crime"? a "friendly crime"?

    wtf is a hate crime?

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    A hate crime is a crime motivated by prejudice against a particular social group. Say if a bunch of homophobic people beat up a gay man just because he's gay. Or if someone who hates Muslims kills members of a mosque purely because they practice Islam. It's a different classification because the act is motivated by intolerance.
    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?

  17. #16
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    it just sounds ridiculous though.

  18. #17
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    Looks like all those guns and ammo I hoarded for Y2K will come in handy, just in case I have to fight my way to get into Canada to make a getaway. America is getting crazier by the day.

    b a t
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    Sans la colère. Sans la haine. Et sans la pitié.

    I always find myself instinctively arrayed on the side of the barbarian, against the powers of organized civilization. -- Robert E. Howard

    Writer, illustrator and artist.

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    I know I'm getting off the subject, but the whole hate crime thing is really dumb in my opinion. If I (I'm white) was to kill a black person then you know I'm going to be charged with a "hate crime", along murder. Basically, if you kill any minority then its going to be a hate crime. By having "hate crimes", your saying that these group of people are special and if you do something to them, they're going to punish you even more severely by saying you did it because you had prejudice towards them! Well, in my opinion, murder is murder. If you kill someone (not counting self defense), its murder. It doesn't matter if you had a personal reason. Also, can black people have hate crimes put on them for killing a white person? Or do they have a anti-racism shield that protects them from that?

  20. #19
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    hate crime legislation only serves to break the public into many groups. Its america were all americans. We should try to become as unified as posible. You should be punished for the crimes you commit, not your philisophical reasoning why you commited them.
    power of the tablet!

  21. #20
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    Originally posted by AnarchyAo2
    I know I'm getting off the subject, but the whole hate crime thing is really dumb in my opinion. If I (I'm white) was to kill a black person then you know I'm going to be charged with a "hate crime", along murder. Basically, if you kill any minority then its going to be a hate crime. By having "hate crimes", your saying that these group of people are special and if you do something to them, they're going to punish you even more severely by saying you did it because you had prejudice towards them! Well, in my opinion, murder is murder. If you kill someone (not counting self defense), its murder. It doesn't matter if you had a personal reason. Also, can black people have hate crimes put on them for killing a white person? Or do they have a anti-racism shield that protects them from that?

    This is an interesting post and I agree with you. I am a community member of a group in my area that works towards promoting diversity and people understanding each other and getting along. That said, I am also politically incorrect because I do not believe that there are any African-Americans in America (unless people hold dual citizenship). The group's leader, a black man, agrees and says to call him black, it is only skin pigment. However, when a local idiot stabbed a black guy over a traffic incident, everyone claimed it was a hate crime. I didn't agree, and I still feel that it was an act of road rage, the situation just happened to involve two different races.

    People in America these days like to jump to conclusions, make their own crusades, champion what they feel is wrong. While the latter is a noble effort, if it is the wrong cause or no cause at all, it is an effort in vain. I am an American, so don't everyone here rail against me, and I have friends from everywhere of every colour and religion, I have never uttered a racial slur and I never tolerate people saying them, I react the way I would if person of that color/ethnicity were with me. However, I have lived overseas in countries where worse things than words get tossed around and I think people here can buck up a little bit. Words may hurt, but bricks leave scars.

    Hate crimes are very hard to determine unless the perpetrators are obviously dedicated to a particular cause against a given group. Yet it is easy to point out what a person thinks is a hate crime and make accusations. Sometimes people just get mad at someone else, and it doesn't matter where they are from or what color of skin pigment they have.

    b a t
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    Sans la colère. Sans la haine. Et sans la pitié.

    I always find myself instinctively arrayed on the side of the barbarian, against the powers of organized civilization. -- Robert E. Howard

    Writer, illustrator and artist.

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    This is crazy! We might as well be flying the communist flag on our flag poles. Patriot act is letting our government do anything they want against the American people and because of 9/11 the people are letting the government get away with it. All this administration has to do is mention terrorism, 9/11, etc… and whatever bill they want to get passed will be passed. Or maybe I’m just paranoid.

    I do find it funny that the most patriotic Americans are the ones that are least American trying to censor others views, opinions because it doesn’t correspond with their beliefs. Unfortunately they don’t realize that are country was founded on dissent. Questioning the government, protesting government actions is every bit American as supporting the government. Heaven for bid if we think for ourselves, or express ourselves with our art work my god what would the government do, oh never mind, I know, they would arrest us. So let us take our place in the government run institutions so we can be taught not to think for ourselves or express ourselves and be dumbed down for the masses. One thing is for sure if the American people were to think, then the government would not be so quick.

    A quote that I feel applies even if the person that said it was a murderer.

    “How fortunate for leaders that men do not think."
    - Adolf Hitler

    History definitely repeats itself look at what happened with the Hollywood Blacklist because of the fear of communism. Or when the American Japanese were held against their will after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. Let us not forget McCarthyism. I could go on about this but I digress. There are several subjects I take a stand against and censorship and privacy issues really take the top of the cake.

    In the words of “Rage Against the Machine”.

    “What? The land of the free! Whoever told you that is your enemy.”

    I’m starting to take on bad karma now. Rant is over.
    "Be formless, shapeless, like water... You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot... Now water can flow, or it can crash, be water my friend." -- Bruce Lee

  23. #22
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    All of this new legislation does make one wonder more about the entire 9/11/01 tragedy, with the CIA director resigning recently due to information he had not really helping out my personal paranoia concerning my government. America creates laws as a reaction to the actions of a few, which end up restricting the rights and privileges of the average law-abiding citizen and not really solving the original problem. I am not entirely sure what this mentality stems from, but it ends up never being beneficial to the majority of people. The general apathy and fear culled via the media, not to mention the engendered social stigma of standing up against governement officials nowadays keeps the system of control going strong. There was a show on the other day with a news journalist showing how easy it is to breach the security of a chemical plant for purposes of terrorism. Do we really need to encourage this? Is it necessary information or fearmongering to garner support for more restrictive laws?

    bat
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    Sans la colère. Sans la haine. Et sans la pitié.

    I always find myself instinctively arrayed on the side of the barbarian, against the powers of organized civilization. -- Robert E. Howard

    Writer, illustrator and artist.

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    Poor guy...That's no good. I still don't see how having poisonous chemicals is terrorism. I mean like when a battery leaks its poisonous. Jeez...

  25. #24
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    As to Mr. Kurtz, that sucks - if I was the paramedic, I'd have done the same thing - but if there are no connections to terrorism that can be made quickly, then drop the freaking case - he's innocent until proven guilty, that's one of the things that makes this country great.

    A POINT TO NOTE: As far as I know, any time someone dies at home, the police are REQUIRED to investigate unless a doctor was present and confirms there was no murder. This is just a precaution that is always taken. When my wife's father died, his doctor immediately called the hospital and the police to let them know he was there when it happened and that there was no foul play. This doesn't justify a longstanding federal investigation, I'm just pointing that out because it may explain police showing up and getting involved quickly.

    my only thoughts in response to the tangents this has taken is that I agree with all the comments on hate crime and how stupid and downright prejudice the whole idea is. Bat, your post said it really well. It's law based on emotional response (FLAWED) and ends up breaking crime into racial, religious, or socio-economic groups. It's "sad feelings" turning into bureaucratic bullshit bigotry.

    as far as the direction this nation is taking, i'm certainly not a fan of some of the things going on here, but i love the hell out of this country. what frustrates me is how so few people A) understand the full scope of politics and social events (i.e. understand both sides, the pros and cons and motivations both good and ill) and B) are so unwilling to take responsibility for the actions of the nation. America will be as good or bad as AMERICANS make it.

    In my politics i'm a "capitalist oppressor" and damn proud of it. But in my heart I'm an anarchist, which I think makes me a libertarian. I believe our government is WAY too big and overreaches WAY too many boundaries. But the one thing (other than protecting our borders and regulating trade) that I love about our government is that it saves me and those I love from the idiots in this nation who don't care about the wellfare of anyone but themselves.

    Selfish, egotistical, manipulative, short-sighted, tv-addicted, ignorant mother fuckers (and I use that term rarely) are ruining this nation, and only 1/4 of them are in the government. the other 3/4 are on the streets with you and me. I'm glad to see so many people actively thinking on this thread. We must stay educated, unbiased, and spread the word:


    LEARN.
    UNDERSTAND ALL SIDES.
    TURN OFF THE TV AND READ.
    DON"T TRUST ANYONE WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING THEIR OPPONENT.
    NEVER JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS.
    STUDY ALL HISTORY.
    VOTE.

    Do NOT be one of them.

    -30- END RANT

    maldrin
    d a v i d p i n e

    ONLY CONNECT.

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    Lol, it's amazing how the USA is becoming a police-state.
    ...+1 exp

  27. #26
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    Originally posted by maldrin

    Selfish, egotistical, manipulative, short-sighted, tv-addicted, ignorant mother fuckers (and I use that term rarely) are ruining this nation, and only 1/4 of them are in the government. the other 3/4 are on the streets with you and me. I'm glad to see so many people actively thinking on this thread.
    maldrin

    I agree that it is these people who run this nation and they sweep a lot of good natured up into their rhetoric. I believe it is the basic ineptitude of these people who cause most of the restrictive laws and regulations to come into being through basic irresponsibility. I do not believe the youth of today are worse than my day (makes me sound really old, yikes), but kids today are so limited in what they can do over what I had growing up in the 70's and 80's, and the basic little freedoms and privileges are gone, in my opinion, due to social engineering. People are becoming docile and as a country, we learn to "live with it, because that is the way it is." I think that we, as a people, should begin to take back our country from over-legislating politicians and other concern groups and show that we can be responsible. I want my freedom of speech back, and I want to be able to move around as a law abiding citizen without being labeled, tracked, monitored and having to be approved. What's next, will we be tranquilized and have ear tags to keep tabs on everyone?

    bat
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    Sans la colère. Sans la haine. Et sans la pitié.

    I always find myself instinctively arrayed on the side of the barbarian, against the powers of organized civilization. -- Robert E. Howard

    Writer, illustrator and artist.

  28. #27
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    Originally posted by bat


    I think that we, as a people, should begin to take back our country from over-legislating politicians and other concern groups and show that we can be responsible. I want my freedom of speech back, and I want to be able to move around as a law abiding citizen without being labeled, tracked, monitored and having to be approved.

    :thumbsup: bat!

    not to be part of the mutual back patting and quoting association but yet again, all i can say is "I agree"...

    this whole thread makes me want to start up a big discussion of the NEA and the evils thereof, but i'll have to wait until after austin...
    d a v i d p i n e

    ONLY CONNECT.

  29. #28
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    Originally posted by maldrin


    :thumbsup: bat!

    not to be part of the mutual back patting and quoting association but yet again, all i can say is "I agree"...

    this whole thread makes me want to start up a big discussion of the NEA and the evils thereof, but i'll have to wait until after austin...

    I think that many of us can agree to these basic human wants, regardless of where you are on the planet. By saying I want my freedom of speech back, I mean I want us all to have that right, not just those I agree with, which doesn't seem to be high on the priority list of those in power. Regardless of the administration, I feel that the wheels of "progress"will keep taking care of their own interests, and more and more elements of control will sadly be put into place. Look at this article, for example:

    http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/she...ts_armored.htm

    A sheriff has a tank, for "homeland security activities and during disasters". What does he think is going to happen that will require a tank? Why is he smiling? Does this sort of activity concern anyone else? Are his deputies handing out Little Red Books? With Patriot Act 2 can he use this vehicle just on "probable cause"?

    bat
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    Sans la colère. Sans la haine. Et sans la pitié.

    I always find myself instinctively arrayed on the side of the barbarian, against the powers of organized civilization. -- Robert E. Howard

    Writer, illustrator and artist.

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    Jesus , i was trying to build a dirty bomb for my installation piece and the feds came and beat me. Im in gitmo right now writing this. I only have 5 minutes before the hourly beating. PLEASE HELP ME.

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    Maybe the first artist was Mr.Chong.It was not really about terrorism,but maybe a produkt of the histeria.
    On the other hand,not all people suffer from that need of observation-members of the Bin Laden family who were in the U.S. didn't.
    I've just read an article that compares Omar Saeed Sheik to Khalid S. Mohammed.
    While there is no interest in O. Saeed S.,the ISI-man who supported Atta with 100.000$,K. S. Mohammed plays a big role now-but there is no possability at all to find out if anything it is said he says is more than a rumour,he cannot be asked directly.

    jetpack42 postet:
    ..."...and passed quickly before legislators opposed to it had time to fully examine it."...
    It was a little trick: It was exchanged by a altered version immediatly before it passed-they did'nt know.

    About hate crimes: I'm from germany,so i don't know if it could be 100% translated to "hate crimes" : in germany the statistics about racist crimes are manipulated.So it happened,that where the most racist crimes were,the statistic says there are actually no racist/right extremist crimes at all.
    10 days ago a bomb injured 22 turkish people(one got an arm amputated)-and no one is talking about terrorism-it's just not called so.Ignoring the origin of such crimes supports people who do so.

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