The Official Artcenter Thread - like, omg! - Page 22

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  1. #631
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    This is my opinion... but yes, i'd agree taking environmental design does not fit well into the entertainment aspect of things. It's not the same sort of 'environments' as you are thinking of in terms of sets, matte paintings, etc. They're approach is very 3D oriented with little emphasis on practical drawing or painting skills. To my untrained outside observance, the program seems to be sort of a trumped up interior and exterior design program that encourages the changing of physical spaces by engineering the spaces themselves and the elements within them. Its architecture meets interior design. Its sort of odd.

    Product/trans or Illustration will give you more of the actual foundation for entertainment through, most importantly, drawing.

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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  3. #632
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    My little rant

    Yes i agree with Helium about the Environment department, it is not really where you would want to head if you are interested in production work and etc.

    OK so i feel i should let these new students know what is going on with AC, you guys/gals might know but i don't feel like reading the whole thread to find out.

    Art Center is going through a serious change with its curriculum. It isn't even the same as when i started and that is only 4 terms ago. It is a great school and has lots of good teachers, but it seems their emphasis isn't on developing good draftsmanship anymore [that comes from your individual drive]. For example 1st term i had 5 studios and 1 academic and i pulled 2-3 all niter's a week to just stay on top, it was great b/c i love working and drawing all the freak'n time but i know students who hated it and failed b/c they did. And now in present time, my roommate who is a 1st termer says he is bored and doesn't know what to do with his time, he goes to car shows and hangs out, heads home every weekend sleeps a good 10 hours a nite unless he is talking on the comp or playing games. And in some studio classes he doesn't even get homework. So i am saying this b/c i feel everyone should be aware that just b/c you are here doesn't mean you will get good. It depends on you and that might seem obvious but when you are here that becomes very unclear sometimes.

    It isn't the same art center that everyone hears about, that one disappeared 8 yrs ago, so it is entirely up to you to if you get good or not, look for the right teachers and know what you want for the most part. You get good b/c you want to be not b/c of where you are at, that only helps.

    -Jesse

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  4. #633
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    That's really depressing... I'd been considering ACCD for a graduate degree, since I've seen so many fantastic artists come out of there, but considering that three or four of you have said the same things, I'll just stick to freelancing.

    It's a shame, too - the professors at my college who came from there are all amazing... but they all went there 20+ years ago, so it's probably not a valid barometer of what's going on these days.

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  5. #634
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    ok Art Center peeps, somebody compile a comprehensive list of all the PRO's that's teaching at Art Center! Like Scott Robertson.

    And all the PRO's that once taught there. Like Feng, Ryan Church, etc.

    Thanks! hee

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  6. #635
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    Thanks for your opinions Helium and Jesse. It is a pity that there are not many programs with emphasis on the production design aspect of entertainment production. I initially thought Art Center could be the place. I guess now I might have to look towards the ‘Gnomon’ direction, pickup matte painting and digital sets classes.

    As for Product/Trans/Illustration, I don’t know. I have a BFA in Illustration and I am trying to go back to school and push myself further. If I had known what I wanted to do then, I would have transferred to AC. I was basically making up my own curriculum, taking animation, computer classes and actually some live action TV production design units that were well hidden in the Interior Architecture Dept. Weird as it seems, but those production classes were the best I had, a very different take compared to drawing. So I ended up quite a hybrid, neither a fantastic illustrator nor a strong animator or designer. I don't know if I should go for another 4 years doing Industrial Design/Entertainment at Art Center or practise on my own (which needs a lot more determination).

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  7. #636
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    how about the new Illustration Entertainment design major? i would imagine that would cover what it needs to do art for games and film.

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  8. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Mac
    Art Center is going through a serious change with its curriculum. It isn't even the same as when i started and that is only 4 terms ago. It is a great school and has lots of good teachers, but it seems their emphasis isn't on developing good draftsmanship anymore [that comes from your individual drive]. For example 1st term i had 5 studios and 1 academic and i pulled 2-3 all niter's a week to just stay on top, it was great b/c i love working and drawing all the freak'n time but i know students who hated it and failed b/c they did. And now in present time, my roommate who is a 1st termer says he is bored and doesn't know what to do with his time, he goes to car shows and hangs out, heads home every weekend sleeps a good 10 hours a nite unless he is talking on the comp or playing games. And in some studio classes he doesn't even get homework. So i am saying this b/c i feel everyone should be aware that just b/c you are here doesn't mean you will get good. It depends on you and that might seem obvious but when you are here that becomes very unclear sometimes.

    It isn't the same art center that everyone hears about.
    That makes me very nervous. It might sound a bit geeky and all, but I've only been serious about art for 4 months.. and what got me into it was Art Center. I saw the catalog, the dvd an art center rep. presented and heard wonderful things about the school from my art teacher and I fell inlove with the college. It gave me a goal to strive for... I really wanted to get into the school. But the whole thing about Art Center's reputation declining.. I heard it from a couple different sources already. This is giving me doubts about going.. that and the price and the fact that I'll have to go across the country to attend it.

    But if I do go, Art Center will no doubt, still probably offer a very artsy and mature environment.. allow me to advance in the arts without distractions from my family.. and there are still several strong programs, right?

    Gosh, this is so hard. I'm seriously weighting my options here.. pld:

    If anybody have any up to date input about Art Center, please please please post.

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  9. #638
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    Given the decline in the quality of the education at Art Center, are you guys saying that AC is slipping in comparison to other schools?? All of the people that I talk to still regard Art Center as being one of the top design schools in the country, especially for trans and illustration. I mean, what you get out of an education (job, connections) varies tremendously, but that doesn't really matter if you've already decided to go to school.

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  10. #639
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    I didnt know the quility of teaching was declining. Now it slipped off my list of schools to go to. I'm looking at AAU and CCAD now.

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  11. #640
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    Wow. This thread is a downer. I don't know if you can really base the downfall of a school on a lazy first-termer. I mean, is he getting good grades? I know a second term student who previously went to Otis for three years.....and she said it's kicking her butt.

    Last edited by gunnz; March 28th, 2006 at 02:09 AM.
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  12. #641
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    ^Kinda agree.. I wanna change the mood. =)

    Quality may be declining, but after rethinking the situation, I think Art Center is definitely still up there. It's still my first choice, but if RISD, MICA or SAIC decides to offer more mula...hehe. One thing that really attracts me to Art Center is it's connections to the job world...

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  13. #642
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    I think there are still good teachers there, I'm taking some night classes and I've had Gayle Donahue and Gary Meyer and I really learned a lot from them and I think they are the best teachers I've had so far. I'm taking drawing concept (really wierd class) with the day students since there is space and Gayle would go off on the whole class if they slack off or they are 5 mins late to class, but she is the only teacher I know that really cares about how the students are doing and want them to do good. I've heard other people say that Bob Kato, Lori Madden, Richard Keyes and Deni Ponty are pretty good, I dunno since I've never had them.

    I agree with J. Mac that you gotta push yourself to be good. You can have the best instructors in the world but if you are lazy you won't be as good as you could of been.

    Entertainment Desing track is still new so things might change but it doesn't seem so bad. It's weird though some classes for certain majors are gone now. Product and Trans doesn't have perspective and Illus doesn't have rendering tech and analysis of form anymore. I'm sure these are stuff that people have said before so I feel like I'm being annoying haha.



    Denart - If you mean entertainment artists.......Scott Robertson, Neville Page, Nick Pugh are teaching at Art Center....I think Scott and Neville are taking a break in the summer though. Those are the ones I know.

    There are also some really good illustrators that just graduated art center recently......Frank Stockton, Josh Cochran...etc

    Last edited by JoshK; March 28th, 2006 at 06:16 AM.
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  14. #643
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    I really like this guy's stuff too:
    And for some reason, they all seem like buddies.

    http://www.nathanhuang.com/

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  15. #644
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    heh short story, yeah right. helium speaks the truth and he does have some good insight. i feel like i don't want to keep going, i could get the same if not better education in many other places. when you go to artcenter it is like you are buying into a club, where some benefits are great but to me the dues aren't worth it at this point, at least financially. exceptionally when the direction of the school is kind of unclear. i have to say there are good teachers that i will continue to keep in contact with but not enough to stay and pay 13,000.

    I am glad that this is under discussion now, b/c i would hate to have people be mislead by what the school wants you to think compared to what is actually going on.

    -Jesse

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  16. #645
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    Hehe, so it wasn't a small story.. I was veehhh-ry tired.. and angry! I just don't think reality permiates that school on many levels.

    I think Jesse is right. You can enter the school, develope relationships, and sort of just slide away after a while. There are many opportunities where you may be able to sit in on a class or two, or ask a professor something aside from class hours, and if you develope lasting relationships with these teachers as friends then what they have to offer doesn't need to end when you leave or graduate.

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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  17. #646
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    Helium, can I ask why your boss said he wouldn't hire the Skillful Huntsman guys? I'm just curious, because I thought most of the work in there was lovely. (My only real complaint with it was that they never picked a theme and adhered to it, so all the work just seemed like... endless brainstorming homework.) I thought Khang, at least, had a job at Dreamworks...

    ACCD sounds like it's driving for the middle road between being a business and being an excellent college, and not doing either very well. (I went to SCAD for my BFA, which is definitely just a business... and while that's not preferable - they admit EVERYONE, have immense infrastructure problems, and are all about appearances to nab more students - did mean that scholarships were widely available, and you can definitely be part-time.)

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  18. #647
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    art school decisions

    I got accepted to Pratt, SVA, and Ringling, I have not heard anything from ART CENTER, WHICH is my top choice, I am also worried because in SVA they took me out of the foundatoin program and put me in the second year which is illustration classes already. I wanted a foundation year because all the foundation classes that I have gotten are from community college and the teacher really suck, so most of it I have learned my self, Ringling wanted to do the same too putting me in their second year but they actually called me, and I told them no that I want foundation. Just wondering what you guys think I know AC is the best for concept art but I have not gotten accepted yet and if I dont, I have to go to one of theses schools. What do you guys think is better for concept art SVA or Ringling? thank you guys please help!

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  19. #648
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    I dunno alot of that just sounded very bitter to me, i think one should have a better idea of what the program is and what the classes are before one makes a judgment like that. That program is packed full of amazing artists that busted their ass to get there, if you have questions about part of the program, ask the ones who are in it, and if something about it bothers you, dont apply.

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  20. #649
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    Just a note about what macaroni said about the Hunstman Guys not being hireable. Mike Yamada and Felix Yoon both work at Dreamworks. As for Khang, geez, can anyone say Khang is not incredible?
    Back to program though. Like any othe rprogram it has positives and negatives. Like any other program, it's there to help you along but not do it for you. Now, just like always before, it is really up to the student to do the work and put the energy into what's important to get to where they want to be. The school is there to help and yes, sometimes doesn't feel like it is) but it's not there to do it for you. people think that if you go to Art Center and pay the big bucks (and they are BIG) you'll just become good, like there's some secret. There isn't, so you have to work for it.
    Everything is a bit jumbled right now and I can see why some would be confused and a bit angry at the seeming lack of direction and focus with what theya re paying. Still, I think despite its flaws, the program has benefits. It's up to individuals to see what is really happening and weigh what's important to them and what's not and choose accordingly.
    Lastly, you cna always take terms off and sit in on classes, most of the teachers you want and thos ementioned anyway have no problem with it. Bob Kato, Norm Schureman, Gary Meyer, they all don't mind.

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  21. #650
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    In regards to the 8 page thesis paper:
    You start off arguing about art center and how it lets people in easily and complaining about that. Then you follow up that the entertainment design track is designed for only people who apply for it. By having people apply for a certain track and evaluated by industry professionals, is this not a way to give people who are working hard and want to polish the skills an opportunity to grow and keep the ones who don't truly want to be there out? As with the post before mine, when someone wants something and bitch and complain with it, what's the point? They get no where. Many people "want" but how many "act"? Agreeing with Helltaxi from before, the Entertainment Design program have a lot of individuals who have their own goals. They sweat and bleed over their homework and no one regrets it. Maybe people arent complaining out loud because its' for what they love they enjoy the pressure.

    Entertainment design apparently is just doing movies? I had no idea. The term is general and offers a lot of different jobs and positions ie. games, toys, theme parks and so on. If you have a one track mind and are geared there, more power to you. Just don't think that everyone else falls into your category.

    As for art center doing away with perspective, that is not true. I speak for the product department, where the modified program is geared to make the student have a better understanding of the basics. Such that in their classes such as the early viscoms, perspective is already integrated into it. Their emphasis is on foundation and I believe that they are getting it.

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  22. #651
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    I agree with both Burce and Helium, i am taking the summer off and sitting in classes. Some don't mind. Bruce is right. there are benifits and flaws, but what i wanted was for new students and other people to atleast know about what is going on and how i feel about it.

    I agree with helltaxi as well but i feel everyone should atleast get and idea of what people are thinking and what is accuring.

    I also agree with inkwerkz, but i dont want people to be mislead by how the school fronts. There are alot of good people in the new programs and instructors teaching. we all have our own agenda and we are doing what we can to fulfill that.

    I just think it is still kind of shacky in some places with some core issues being neglected, but i do like alot of it as well. again i just want people to know more then one point of view. I hope no one really has hard feelings, this is a thread to help people become aware not get offended and hurt.

    -Jesse

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  23. #652
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    edit: (this post was in response to a previous post that has been removed, hence no longer giving the reader much frame of reference. nonetheless i'll keep it here.)


    hm.

    i could talk on this all day long but i'll just mention a few things regarding the program.

    helium - bold post. good read. i can tell you're fed up with the politics at the school, but i think scott and the entdes track are coming under unnecessary fire.

    before i get into what i disagree with, i must say i agree with a lot of what you say regarding leaving school, making your own curriculum, and being true to yourself as a student seeking a specific education and not some cookie cutter degree.


    i guess for anyone reading this that doesn't know me - i'm in the product dept and part of the entertainment design track. i've also had a chance to work closely with scott on concept design projects for games.

    i must say, you're being a bit one sided when describing his 'master plan' to run the program. first off, scott is a extremely talented and a good teacher. through my time knowing him i've come to see him do more for the students than almost any other teacher at that school. pawning him off as a teacher who has only worked on one game and one film isn't giving him the credit he deserves. he's a solid designer.

    regarding: the product versus illustration student stereotype - let me try to sum up the 'stereotype' as it's being used around school (although this is just from my point of view and i don't necessarily agree with stereotyping groups people):

    product assumes = you busted your ass with more work than humanly possible in the first few terms giving you a solid work ethic. you've been able to demonstrate craft through endless hours of chalk rendering and wet sanding, as well as a solid knowledge of form and how it sits in space. this assumes understanding perspective. you spend a lot of time sketching out ideas and concepts and are capable of rendering out finalized ideas. you have a problem solving mindset. you can't draw a figure unless it's for scale. you may or may not understand rhythm and gesture in a drawing, and most likely have no sense of painting or color and how it applies to an image.

    illlustration assumes = you may or may not have busted your ass with figure block ins. you can paint, you understand color, you can draw the human figure and head and understand proportion. you understand gesture and rhythm and force and what it means to bring an image to life. you probably have limited knowledge of perspective past the foundation class. you may have a looser craft that could be considered sloppy. you probably don't have as much experience drawing man made forms in space (props, vehicles, objects). the problem solving mindset may NOT be here.

    product usually means your education thus far has emphasized design.
    illustration usually means your education thus far has emphasized image.

    the entdes track is a concept design track focusing on design AND image but the former being the most important. so when you say scott and marty have a preference for i.d. students, i think it's more accurate in that they want people who want to focus on designing and problem solving than color keying and composing since that's what the program is about. but ultimately you apply, just like everyone else, so it's your work speaking for you and not your major.

    and yes it's tough to get into. and yes i think that's a good thing. and yes the classes are strict on who is allowed to be in there, and yes again i think that's a good thing. if anyone could just sign up for the class and get in then it would just be what was considered entertainment at art center pre-new curriculum. haphazard and full of mediocre talent. the beauty of having it selective is that everyone in the program WANTS to be there, WANTS to work hard, WANTS to do good work, and WANTS to push themselves to be better designers. None of this 'oh character sounds fun, i'll go check that out'.

    Another great part of being in a small class with the same people is you make friends and get to know their style and work ethic. These guys will end up working in the same field as you and will ultimately be throwing work your way, and you theirs.

    the entertainment design track at the school focuses on designing characters/creatures, vehicles/props, and environments. it applies to both film and game, but the truth is that there are more jobs in games than in film, so that's where the emphasis is. that and well, read sylvain's post on film art jobs - (http://www.hollywoodcomics.com/faq.html).

    regarding: the drawthrough stuff - that's really just emphasize for drawing symmetrical objects in perspective. it's purely designing form in space. the drawing may often look 'dead' but it is a properly accurate design. so for instance, a vehicle that was plotted out on paper, should look just like you drew it once it's finished by the modeler. there shouldn't be any discrepancy in design if it's done right. and for your own sanity, by taking the time to draw through and design the object from a front 3/4, you make it easier when working out the rear 3/4 cause you've spent a good amount of brain power figuring out what's going on with the form. i must say though, scott preaches efficiency above all else. if you can model your design in 3d from a loose sketch then give it to someone to be animated or refined or what have you, then go for it.

    and i don't think that those in the program are uncreative or derivative of 'star wars'. there is a lot of good, original, well thought out work being put up every week. enough to inspire me to keep at it.

    cheers.

    Last edited by Shoji; April 2nd, 2006 at 05:38 PM.
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  24. #653
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    as an illustrator currently in the entertainment design program:

    i dont know what all this talk about the drawthrough method has to do with the entertainment design. for whatever reason, illustrators tend to think that thats what this program is all about. Everyone ive talked to has been like "OMG i cant draw in perspective, i'm not going to apply for entertainment design" I couldnt do drawthrough when i started (ive learned how since) As for developing an 'eye' for perspective, Gary is the man because hes been doing it forever and just automatically knows, you cant expect to learn what he knows in a couple of years. the Drawthrough method is a quick way to teach you how to draw things in proficient prespective.

    We should be greatful for what we have, the kids in the years before us had to struggle to try and get entertainment classes. And now we're being blessed with great classes by Kevin Chen, Nick Pugh and the like. Not many other schools can say that they have a program like ours.

    Last edited by shaoshao; March 30th, 2006 at 06:06 AM.
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    I submit that we shut this debate down. Either points that I have tried to make have not been put forward properly by myself, or those opinion have been misconstrued. I appologize if i've offended anyone in the progams themselves, or people holding opposing opinions, however please just remember, these points are just that, opinion. I don't believe further clarification or pontification is necesary or possible on a medium such as this.

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?
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    Art Center is definately going through a change at the moment, part of it is going more business oriented and letting more students in than before (hence parking issues being worked on etc) and Anne (illustration chair) has some very different ideas about where she wants illustration to go than some of us our thinking. Foundation has been getting beaten up a bit in illustration, though it's still super strong in ID. And the reason a lot of tuition has jumped is all of the fancy equipment those guys have on the ID side (I'm illustration).

    The thing you have to do when coming to art center is find out what teachers are teaching what you want to learn and hunt them down. Do you want to learn about form? Get the ID side, get scott and neville and norm, want to apply it to figures? Go get Kyle Kane and Danny Galieote. It's not the same school as it was 10 years ago when Hogarth and Vern Willson, and Carmean, and Steve Huston and the like were all teaching here, but it's still an amazing place to be. Gary knows his perspective stuff, and he is also an amazing portrait painter (Adv. Sketching for Illustration) we do have classes on toy design opening up and the likes. Entertainment can go design or entertainment arts, which is a bit livelery than concept design stuff neccesarily is pigeonholed as. You can still get thought the skills to become a fantastic draftsman at art center, or an amazing painter, or an amazing designer, but you have to look for it.

    And suppliment your classes. Don't just go to class, half ass your homework, and dick around. Read books on this stuff, find the good ones. Go to workshops and practice, get the milage. Go to other workshops, drop the $500 for Steve Huston's 3-4 day painting workshops, check out stuff at LA Figurative Academy. Hell, take a class or two at Gnomon, there's some overlap in teachers and course work and they're a buttload cheaper.

    A lot of your education is coming from peers as well. And Art Center, while getting a bit watered down with increasing admissions, still has some incredibly talented students that you are always going to be learning from (and working with once you get out there.)


    Is it possible to slack your ass off through art center? I suppose it is. But only if you're trying for it. There are still teachers assigning 15-20 hours of homework a week in illustration (Kyle Kane's head and hands class comes to mind, some of the perspective classes are giving a fair ammount.)

    Don't come into art center expecting to be just handed a perfect education. It's a WONDERFUL resource for learning this stuff, and I certainly wouldn't be throwing my 13 grand a term to them if I didn't feel like it was worth, it's just a matter of making the most of what we have available.



    And as far as teachers for incoming students, I highly recomend Lorrie Madden (Fairly Baroque figuartive style, very skilled), Danny Galieote (trained with Steve Huston, worked as a character animator for 10 years at disney, great rythm and form knowledge), Kyle Kane (Trained under Steve Huston, Carmean, Hogarth, Vern Wilson, very very solid understanding of form and how to apply it to the figure.), David Luce (Excellent painting teacher, pushes students to develop narrative skill), Alex Scheafer (Really fun teacher very helpful with oil painting), then higher term stuff Bob Kato (Sketching for Illustration, painting with acrylics and different approach than you're used to, a very very very good teacher and class.) when he gets back (two term vacation, but he teachs 3rd and 5th term classes), Ryan Maynerdink (Character stuff), Scott Robertson (Vis Com, it's ID Fundamentals little perspective, looooot of form.), Neville Page (same as scott), Norm Scheurman (More form stuff), Gary Meyer (Perspective god and amazing portraiture), I'm told jeff smith's pretty hot for watercolor work, Roland Young can teach you a lot in terms of selling things and clarity of concept if you want to take some of his advertising classes, When Mark Strickland gets back he's a great teacher to at least work with a little bit because he's got all those fine artsy hippy bullshit ideas and then he actually is a great artists and makes that crap make sense and helps you understand how you can apply it. Rob Rupple (SP?) is a great entertainment guy. Richard Keyes is fantastic for color theory. Bruce Claypool is a hardass teacher for design (or "appreciate the fuck out of what you don't have to do anymore cause now we have computers" class) and will hammer craftsmanship into your head on the illustration side. If/when Kevin Chen is back again thats another no brainer to get. You'll all find teachers that suit your needs and some teachers have teaching styles better suited to what you need than others do. A lot of it is a matter of discovering what you want, and your own strengths and weaknesses and what needs work. And ask around and find out what teachers are doing what. Keep an eye on your friends assignments, and upper term students, and plan what you want to do then do it.

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  27. #656
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    Well I guess helium deleted his post, but he mentioned something about the idea of basically making your own curriculum, rather than just following what the school lays out for you to a t. This is exactly what I want to do if I go to Art Center, because I have very specific goals in mind. But my question is, how open is the school about this? Do they allow their students a good bit of freedom when it comes time to pick classes, or do they try to get you to stick as close to the curriculum as possible?

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  28. #657
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    Thanks for the tips, Gygaxis. The Art Center newbies thank you. You too, Helium. Thanks for trying to look out for us and give us the heads up.

    p.s. i'll be there in the fall.

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  29. #658
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    brum: its not easy if thats what your asking, in the illustration department theyre dead set on you taking their curiculum, you can try to squeeze your way out of some foundation stuff, but things like materials (shop class) and type, its going to be tough.

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  30. #659
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    What's the best way to find housing? I'm coming all the way from NC, so I'll have to consolodate everything into one visit. Does the school have a housing forum or something similar?

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  31. #660
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    yes, contact student life, they'll guide you through it. also, craigslist.com is a great resource for those looking for a place to stay

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