"getting a job in the industry question"
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    Question "getting a job in the industry question"

    Hello guys,

    I hope to get some answers from some professionals here, I am really curious about this one. And I hope its the right section for this thread otherwise sorry !

    I live in Germany and we have quite a strong burocracy here, which means that quite often nobody really cares about your skills, if you dont have a degree chances are rare you'll get a job even as an artist or musician, they trust paper more that what they see. However I discover lots of tutorials
    and some professionals say that those are not only there to promote the industry but also for people who dont have a chance to go to any of those schools. To make it short, is there a chance to break into the industry without a degree from an artschool ?

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    Didn't you kinda just answer your own question there?

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    If your art is good enough, you -will- get a job no matter what.

    However, having said that, paperwork shows a potential employer
    that you are disciplined, can follow instructions (important) and have
    been possibly been taught by a respected member of this industry.
    (Depending on where you studied...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by oiuz View Post
    Hello guys,

    I hope to get some answers from some professionals here, I am really curious about this one. And I hope its the right section for this thread otherwise sorry !

    I live in Germany and we have quite a strong burocracy here, which means that quite often nobody really cares about your skills, if you dont have a degree chances are rare you'll get a job even as an artist or musician, they trust paper more that what they see. However I discover lots of tutorials
    and some professionals say that those are not only there to promote the industry but also for people who dont have a chance to go to any of those schools. To make it short, is there a chance to break into the industry without a degree from an artschool ?
    The first part of what you say is bull shit and offensive. You get hired because you have ability as an artist. Nobody can make a game with people who can't draw so stop with your stupidity about the bureaucracy. You obviously have no knowledge how the real world works. If you want to work in the industry learn to draw and paint either at a school or on your own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    The first part of what you say is bull shit and offensive. You get hired because you have ability as an artist. Nobody can make a game with people who can't draw so stop with your stupidity about the bureaucracy. You obviously have no knowledge how the real world works. If you want to work in the industry learn to draw and paint either at a school or on your own.
    Take a deep breath, He's not affirming you need a diploma, he's saying that's how things generally work in his country and he's asking if the art field is different. Besides, are you from Germany to? Where I'm at, most artists have diplomas, different countries different norms, it has nothing to do about personally insulting you.

    OP: The common knowledge is that you don't need a diplomat if your portfolio is exceptional but that's the thing; exceptional. Once you start getting experience, whether you had formal education or not is going to become quickly irrelevant but when you'll be looking for that first job? It's going to make your life a lot harder. The nice thing about school is that it backs you up when no previous job can. It's not as valued, but it still has more value then no experience at all. There's also the technical and un-artistic side of the job; methodology, good work habits, workflow, working as a team etc... Not to mention school create a lot of great opportunities to make new contacts. So my personal recommendation? It's worth at least looking at what your education opportunities are. Diplomas are the norm where I'm at (college or university) too but I've worked with a few artist who didn't have any... It's not common though, superior education isn't that pricey here.

    Last edited by freiheit; August 13th, 2012 at 11:25 AM.
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    In the entertainment industry portfolio is number one. Personality and your ability to work under demanding schedules and still be a team player is number two. Diplomas don't even matter after that. Maybe it's different in Germany but I doubt it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    In the entertainment industry portfolio is number one. Personality and your ability to work under demanding schedules and still be a team player is number two. Diplomas don't even matter after that. Maybe it's different in Germany but I doubt it.
    You think Germany has entertainment industry?

    Grinnikend door het leven...
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    Quote Originally Posted by eezacque@xs4all.nl View Post
    You think Germany has entertainment industry?
    They have some 60 game studios, Crytek being one amongst them.

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    Hey,
    I work for a big german game company and I can tell you with full confidence that we couldn't care less what degrees you hold if you applied for a concept art position here. Portfolio is what matters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bara View Post
    Hey,
    I work for a big german game company and I can tell you with full confidence that we couldn't care less what degrees you hold if you applied for a concept art position here. Portfolio is what matters.
    This is great to hear. So there still is some hope, if only I manage to get good enough...!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bara View Post
    Hey,
    I work for a big german game company and I can tell you with full confidence that we couldn't care less what degrees you hold if you applied for a concept art position here. Portfolio is what matters.
    Exactly. None of the game or graphics development I've contacted or visited or even worked with in Germany, has ever asked me about a degree.

    I have no accredited degree, and so far it hasn't been a hindrance in my freelance illustration endeavours. I can say the same of some fellow illustrators.

    What matters is a kickass portfolio, and that you deliver good work on time and are pleasant to work with.

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    Aside from what all the others have already said (which is certainly true), it's kinda questionable if a german art school will improve you actual drawing/painting skills anyway. I've talked to a student at the HAW Hamburg (only full Illustration course) and she said that perspective, composition, colors and all that pretty theory isn't viewed as very important by the professors. They say 'an illustrator doesn't have to draw realistically so why bother.'
    Obviously I don't know if that's the norm, but if you read through the descriptions of most art schools you'll find that they all talk about communication and creativity, but none of them say anything about technical skill. According to some posts on precore.not you can even study art without be able to draw well. (I'd really like to be wrong, please correct me if you know better )

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    While its true that its only your portfolio that matters as I also stated
    in my initial post. New artists should not get too caught up in the dream
    that it will be so easy to be self taught and suddenly land a great job.


    This whole turning your nose up at institutions is, to me anyway, drawing
    parallels to the recent threads here where newcomers are too damned lazy
    to even pick up a book.

    I don't have any tertiary qualifications, but I can tell you that good education
    is a precious gift not to be snubbed. I did attend art school all through high
    school and while I did spend half the time smoking and indulging in heavy petting
    behind the sculpture prefab, it was an eye opening experience. I had access to an
    excellent library, filled with nothing else except every book on every aspect of the
    industry. I got to see how strong the competition was in an environment where
    the only pressure I had was a passing grade, not the threat of not having enough
    cash to feed my family. Don't just look at it as getting a piece of paper, but consider
    actually trying to learn something and having the opportunity to be lectured by modern
    pros. If you see it as just going through the motions of getting a degree, then you
    have to examine your motivations.

    Last edited by Star Eater; August 14th, 2012 at 07:25 AM.
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    Don't confuse a degree with a good art education.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heyriel View Post
    it's kinda questionable if a german art school will improve you actual drawing/painting skills anyway. I've talked to a student at the HAW Hamburg (only full Illustration course) and she said that perspective, composition, colors and all that pretty theory isn't viewed as very important by the professors. They say 'an illustrator doesn't have to draw realistically so why bother.'
    Obviously I don't know if that's the norm
    It is the norm here in Germany, unfortunately.
    There are zero classical-academic ateliers here. Only in Gottfried Bammes' drawing classes you could hope to get solid figure drawing fundamentals... in Communist Eastern Germany, during the division. No more such thing now.

    There are a few illustration courses, but the impression I got is that the HAW student you talked to is right. The emphasis is less on developing solid skills, more on "creativity" and "finding style", which is of course important but I doubt it can be really taught. I studied illustration for one year in a small private academy in Hamburg but even there, the teaching of fundamentals was lacking so I recently dropped out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maidith View Post
    It is the norm here in Germany, unfortunately.
    It's the same in The Netherlands, art schools are all about being creative, unique, expressive, and not about hard-boiled art skills. The people I've met who can draw or paint, are old...

    Grinnikend door het leven...
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    by any chance are there a few self taught artists that got a job at video game or movie industry as a concept artist?

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    Quote Originally Posted by udonhead View Post
    by any chance are there a few self taught artists that got a job at video game or movie industry as a concept artist?
    Sure. Tons. But beware this "self taught" notion. Everyone is self taught, self motivated and self successful...or not. Some may have a bit more hands-on direction but that doesn't really make the difference.

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    most people i know in this industry, have no "concept art" or illustration diploma. none got one of the former, because its a young profession and educational systems in europe are slow and rigid. there might be some courses now, but there certainly havent been any a few years ago. there are architects, engineers, graphic designers, and so on.

    all that matters is your portfolio, whom ever says a diploma matters is wrong.

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    Thanks a lot for your replies guys, I consider it important especially if you're in a situation where you cant go to a school but you're still good and passionate, as someone who doesn't have lots of experience I am very glad some of you are kind enough to give a serious answer to this, I know such threads have been opened million times...I know it was easier in the past, at least my subjective percetion, but I am wondering about today this is why I ask...

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    Quote Originally Posted by eezacque@xs4all.nl View Post
    It's the same in The Netherlands, art schools are all about being creative, unique, expressive, and not about hard-boiled art skills. The people I've met who can draw or paint, are old...
    you might want to look into that... http://www.flemishclassicalatelier.c...-jacobs-course considering its in a neighbouring country. ill def. go if i manage to raise the tuition until then. (teacher of jacob collins, anthony ryder, michael grimaldi, to name a few.) also considering hes quite old already, this might me one of the last chances.

    [edit] if i remember correctly, he has studied under frank reilly, and i really would like to have the chance to ask ask a "few" questions about that

    Last edited by sone_one; August 15th, 2012 at 03:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oiuz View Post
    I know it was easier in the past, at least my subjective percetion, but I am wondering about today this is why I ask...
    my 1st post been about the situation (as far as i know it from friends and colleagues) in germany now. (some of them work in berlin as full time concept artists currently, and as far as i know none of them got a diploma.) ive never been asked for one neither, and i doubt austria is far less bureaucratic than germany .

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    Quote Originally Posted by sone_one View Post
    you might want to look into that... http://www.flemishclassicalatelier.c...-jacobs-course considering its in a neighbouring country.
    Looks like they have nice courses and workshops, just don't expect that a 3 months course will launch you from zero to hero...

    Grinnikend door het leven...
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    didnt look at your location... thought youd be in the netherlands and complaining about the educational situation there... never mind then .

    about my (?) expectations to go from zero to hero by taking that course... seriously i dont know how to take that statement, without beeing at least slightly offended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sone_one View Post
    didnt look at your location... thought youd be in the netherlands and complaining about the educational situation there... never mind then .

    about my (?) expectations to go from zero to hero by taking that course... seriously i dont know how to take that statement, without beeing at least slightly offended.
    I think it was a general statement sone, not actually
    directed at you, but rather at anyone interested in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by udonhead View Post
    by any chance are there a few self taught artists that got a job at video game or movie industry as a concept artist?
    Me. No formal art training. Took workshops with artists after I was a hired professional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Star Eater View Post
    I think it was a general statement sone, not actually
    directed at you, but rather at anyone interested in it.
    considering that...



    it might actually be one of the few opportunities nowadays to get you very far though. (student of and monitor for reilly, teacher of several considered to be living masters.)

    even if im not addressed directly by that statement, i feel its completely irrelevant. you can add that to every mention of books, courses, tools, tutorials, tips, sites, whatever ... NOTHING is going to make you go from zero to hero in 3 months... yet some opportunities might get you farther than others. i dont see the point in mentioning that at all. [edit] especially considering all these complaints about the lack of proper education...

    Last edited by sone_one; August 15th, 2012 at 06:25 PM.
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    Here's the deal...a poor student is a poor student. Whether on their own or under the best teachers out there. People that want it make it happen. People that think you're going to give it to them don't.

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