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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Because People are People ...

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    Arshes Nei

    I don't damn you.

    Never heard the song.

    hahahah

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotime View Post
    The problem with that is that comic sales have been awful for a long time, regardless.
    Seriously, for each comic book sold, there's more than 100 tickets sold to go see a superhero movie! What kind of sense does that make?
    Because its wholesome family fun geared and marketed to a broader demgraphic.

    Take the Avengers,

    they have funny lines and big explosions for the little kids.

    Great special effects and barely recognized story arc from the comics for the fans

    Colby Smulders and Scarlett Johansson in skin tight clothes for dad who might be paying for the tickets if he still has a job and could give a shit about the movie

    And Chris Hemsworth for the teenage girls and maybe mom who might be paying for the tickets if dad is unemployed also could give a shit about the movie

    I mean you don't think that's an accident do you?

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  5. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmenSpirits View Post
    Arshes Nei

    I don't damn you.

    Never heard the song.

    hahahah


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  6. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Because its wholesome family fun geared and marketed to a broader demgraphic.

    I mean you don't think that's an accident do you?
    Of course not. Honestly if the mainstream (and only the mainstream, at least their main imprints) actually thought of going this route, I don't think anything but good could come out of it.

    I've also said before that there's no reason the franchises that get cartoons and movies made of them every 3 or so years shouldn't be able to appeal to the same audiences, at least the big name important ones. And with stuff like BTAS, the X-Men movies, and the Nolan trilogy as examples, doing so doesn't mean anyone has to dumb down their stories or themes in any way, shape, or form to accomplish it.

    For all of their non-family friendly stuff, DC originally created Vertigo for that very reason. It was the place they could put Preacher, American Virgin, Swamp Thing, Watchmen, ect ect. Marvel has it's MAX imprint as well as a few others, like Icon, which put out Kick-Ass.

    OTHER things will need to be done to fix comics as a medium, but at least something could be done to keep the superhero genre from alienating so many people when it's in comic form.

    Last edited by Psychotime; August 4th, 2012 at 12:33 AM.
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  7. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Religion for the most part is passed down from ones parents.

    The research supports parenting (conditioning) as the major factor for people with esteem issues. Ideals come from your beliefs which hopefully were guided by your parents when you were young and encouraged by them when you got older.
    ...

    Change happens because individuals take a stand for their rights, that's the only way change really happens. If you care about the lack of diversity in comics or other media then write letters and use your buying power, or use your talents to make something better.

    Ohh. have any links/books for that research? (more for curiosity on my own part) And I guess as a latchkey kid I was just screwed


    As for your latter statement - I'm working on it.

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  8. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Nope, not gonna doo it.

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    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
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  9. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alice Herring View Post
    Ohh. have any links/books for that research? (more for curiosity on my own part) And I guess as a latchkey kid I was just screwed


    As for your latter statement - I'm working on it.
    This talks about child abuse as a recognised factor of low self esteem

    http://www.articlesbase.com/self-imp...d-4432394.html

    this talks about the lack of evidence for large groups having low self esteem because of race or gender

    http://www.atkinson.yorku.ca/~jsteel...7043617968.pdf

    Another quote I had but lost the source

    Low self esteem has also been linked to a higher levels of materialism, or the belief that physical items are of central importance. Supportive parenting has been found to make a difference in this association. Parents who are engaged and accepting of their children tend to have kids with higher self esteem which, in turn, makes kids think and act less materialistically.

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  11. #128
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    Arshes, I didn't understand the logic of your last post either. If you want to catch me out on some hypocrisy or coherency lacuna, please be more explicit so I at least have something to respond to.

    Spaghetti at the wall, splattered food for thought:

    On the overall question. If you want better comics, make them. As far as I can tell, this is a website full of artists.

    If you want to sit around and complain that comic books are as formally repetitive as hieroglyphics, well... go make better ones. Don't buy shitty ones.

    You want diversity from a medium that traffics in idealized body types... you'll get your maoist wish, and you can expect crap art and stories that exist solely to give you your politics as you demand them. Until the sales go down again. Because it was crap art all along. And after a while everybody forgets that Powergirl ever got a new politically correct costume that hid her most interesting characteristic. (What a personality she has otherwise! What character! What writing!)

    You think comics exploit women's bodies? Well, haven't comic books been presenting idealized, impossible-for-most-guys-to-match versions of the male physique since day one. Where was the men's lobby protesting that Superman in 1940 was setting impossible standards for young american boys? (Weren't none, hey how come?)

    Is the argument here that women are more sensitive to cultural archetypes than men? Because that's a sexist argument.

    You want to attack the gender role issue head on? Why the hell bother with comics? Go after Cosmo, for chrissakes! That's the heart of the dragon.

    Problem is: women buy that crap by the barnload. So they can get thinner in 3 weeks, clearer skin in 10 days, fluffier hair through an all avocado diet, better sex that drives him wild in bed, and all the rest of it in order to live that fulfilled personal life.

    Newsflash: A great deal of this body-type exploitation is done by women to women (the average woman, not the exceptional immune ones) making themselves crazy because they are driven by a biological need to be wanted by cro-magnons with jobs. The editors at all those fashion/women's magazines are mostly women. Dudes really don't care. They're not the ones looking at cosmo. They're looking at girls. And they'll take anybody that'll have them, for the most part and/or eventually.

    It would be awesome if parents were responsible for the mental life of their children. But they aren't, so children need to grow up and learn to turn off media, instead of complaining. But the complaint industry keeps telling you your culture is out of your control. And if you don't believe in your own agency, I guess all you can do is keep staring at the screen that oppresses you. Meanwhile your peers constantly bleat that you gotta see this and buy that, wear this or go there, or else you're out of the loop, off the bandwagon.

    Thucydides: Self-control is the chief element in self-respect and self-respect is the chief element in courage.

    Ergo, without self-control you end up a depressed coward.

    Willpower, kiddies. Teach it, preach it. Its the only road to psychological freedom.

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  13. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    this talks about the lack of evidence for large groups having low self esteem because of race or gender

    http://www.atkinson.yorku.ca/~jsteel...7043617968.pdf
    This one doesn't work. I'd like to look at it, because I've always been offended at the idea that humans are so shallow and vain that their self worth is based on what they see from others that share their race or gender, and that the accomplishments of individuals who have no association with them in any way, shape, or form somehow does something for them.

    Apparently the people who like to regurgitate that think that humans are insectoid hiveminds instead of, you know, people with their own goals, personalities, and agency.

    I think it's a pathetic way to live when you dictate your identity as a human being on what OTHER people do with their lives, instead of YOURSELF as an individual.

    It's even worse when fiction gets involved. One thing that comes to mind was the thing about the black/latino Spider-Boy that debuted last year. Apparently little black and latino boys need a character like him on the scene because it'll boost their self esteem to see someone easier for them to relate to. That wasn't his creator's idea, but it was an argument made by someone else to highlight his "necessity". Ugh. People can't just mix up the mold for it's own sake?

    Bah, I'm just rambling again. It's even more incoherent when I'm tired and not as alert.

    Last edited by Psychotime; August 4th, 2012 at 02:19 AM.
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  14. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotime View Post
    This one doesn't work. I'd like to look at it, because I've always been offended at the idea that humans are so shallow and vain that their self worth is based on what they see from others that share their race or gender, and that the accomplishments of individuals who have no association with them in any way, shape, or form somehow does something for them.
    Kinda reminds me of the Gabby Douglas controversy where other Blacks complained she was supposed to be "Representing them"

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...criticism.html

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  16. #131
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    “I love how she’s doing her thing and winning,’’ says 22-year-old Latisha Jenkins of Detroit told The Daily Beast. “But I just hate the way her hair looks with all those pins and gel. I wish someone could have helped her make it look better since she’s being seen all over the world. She representing for black women everywhere.’’
    Good lord. But to be fair, the Olympics was intended to foster this type of attitude to some degree in the first place, wasn't it? At least on national lines.

    A little tangent, but Joe Louis had a lot fans (most of them white) cheering him on to kick Max Schmeling's Nazi ass in the 1938 championship fight.

    Last edited by Psychotime; August 4th, 2012 at 02:46 AM.
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  17. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Is the argument here that women are more sensitive to cultural archetypes than men? Because that's a sexist argument.
    Well that's just silly. (the sensitivity part.)

    Someone explained the problem to me in this way, when we were discussing minorities in cartoons (and I was like, why does it matter if the character is bad or good?):

    Imagine you have a german character who ends up being an evil mad scientist. This portrays germans in a bad light - not because the character was bad, but because that is the only portrayal of a german character on the show. (Austrian, whatever.)

    That's why the "positive examples of your race or gender" question is important in the unpacking the invisible knapsack list..thing. I was listening to "Blink" on audiobook the other day, and the author pointed out in a study that black students did better on the SAT's when prior to taking the test they were exposed to positive examples of their race. The same thing happened when taking the discrimination test which is done by I think..standford? It wasn't just done with race, either - and the idea is apparently called "priming". So what we see can have some sort of influence. Granted, I don't have access to the original data.

    While the white male characters suffer from the same unrealistic proportions/designs that female characters do, overall their is a wider range of types and personalities of men than of minorities and women. Saying "so don't read it!" Is certainly one response; but what happens when the majority of the materials have the same problem? Is that really a valid solution, or just dismissing a potential consumer's concern? If were just one consumer I'd probably side on the 'don't read it' answer. But this is more than just a handful of people. Do you take existing properties and change them? Create new properties, which can always be risky? Maybe marketing has relied so long on what is out there to do studies that they are missing an entire potential market. All In The Family failed under market research. Do people really know what they will like if it's different than what we're used to seeing?

    You just reminded me about a discussion I had with someone - he mentioned there aren't a lot of female leads in action movies because boys won't watch them. My response was of course not! The movies that have women as leads are usually rom-coms/etc! I won't watch that stuff! (boring.) So what is the actual issue? Boys won't watch films with girls? Or is it that girls are always portrayed a certain way in films that are unappealing to boys? Or that being 'female' is derided? "You throw like a girl!" "Don't be such a girl", for example. (why are boys being teased for not being like the other boys? expectations based on gender are awful.) In the Frailty Myth the author discusses studies that indicate until puberty, if given the same attention/training girls have exactly the same physical potential as boys. I don't think there is anyway to actually know since you can't isolate an individual from their culture. There are more questions than answers/reasons.

    Of course now I'm rambling. bleh.



    Psychotime: Save Target As will let you save the pdf file. I had the same problem.


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  18. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alice Herring View Post
    Imagine you have a german character who ends up being an evil mad scientist. This portrays germans in a bad light - not because the character was bad, but because that is the only portrayal of a german character on the show. (Austrian, whatever.)
    I'm not too sure about that. What if the German was a bespectacled cocaine snorting psychiatrist with an obsession with sex? Does the character still represent all Germans if they're the only German there?

    This idea that one character represents an entire group comes from the audience's perception, not the actual work. People will see what they want to see, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And I think it's arbitrary based on the things the viewer is conditioned to look for.

    The token girl in a group of mostly boys will be viewed in this light more often than not, but a token boy in a group of mostly girls won't be interpreted as a representation for all boys.

    You can do the same thing with race, and I can say for sure that you can expect some pretty stereotypical token white characters on black sitcoms that go by because no one complains about them.

    Regardless, writers should be fully aware of how an audience can interpret their work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alice Herring View Post
    You just reminded me about a discussion I had with someone - he mentioned there aren't a lot of female leads in action movies because boys won't watch them. My response was of course not! The movies that have women as leads are usually rom-coms/etc! I won't watch that stuff! (boring.) So what is the actual issue? Boys won't watch films with girls? Or is it that girls are always portrayed a certain way in films that are unappealing to boys? Or that being 'female' is derided?
    Doesn't seem to be that way with video games. Though of course a good chunk of them are sexualized in the same way you'd see them in superhero comics, but the minority that aren't have still made their mark in the industry just from being good games, period: Like the main characters of "Beyond Good and Evil" and "Portal". The female leads of the Resident Evil and Silent Hill games count as well (though in the newer RE games a few of them started getting sexy costumes as unlockable easter eggs, so take that as you will.)

    Last edited by Psychotime; August 4th, 2012 at 03:35 AM.
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  19. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotime View Post
    I'm not too sure about that. What if the German was a bespectacled cocaine snorting psychiatrist with an obsession with sex? Does the character still represent all Germans if they're the only German there?

    This idea that one character represents an entire group comes from the audience's perception, not the actual work. People will see what they want to see, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And I think it's arbitrary based on the things the viewer is conditioned to look for.

    The token girl in a group of mostly boys will be viewed in this light more often than not, but a token boy in a group of mostly girls won't be interpreted as a representation for all boys. You can do the same thing with race.

    But is that because we see such a wide variety of 'boy' type characters, but so few female and german characters? Really, I just want to see a good adventure story where the lead just happens to be a girl, rather than having a female lead - if that makes sense.

    Heh. I'm not actually a video game player. Although I am curious to see Anita Sarkeesan's video series regarding female tropes in games. (I'd actually like to see what the most common male tropes are too, and if any of the tropes could be broken down by race..hrm.)

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  20. #135
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    Personally I don't think Anita's the right person to talk about them. I saw a few of her videos, and while her heart is certainly in the right place, she makes sloppy arguments with faulty logic, and more than once outright leaves out relevant information on the topic she chooses to analyze, and it's hardly unintentional.

    Off the top of my head, she really lost me when she tried to connect the alien impregnation cliche as some kind of ploy by the right wing anti-abortion crowd, which...I still have no idea how that's supposed to make sense.

    Last edited by Psychotime; August 4th, 2012 at 04:14 AM.
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  21. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotime View Post
    Personally I don't think Anita's the right person to talk about them. I saw a few of her videos, and while her heart is certainly in the right place, she makes sloppy arguments with faulty logic, and more than once outright leaves out relevant information on the topic she chooses to analyze, and it's hardly intentional.

    Off the top of my head, she really lost me when she tried to connect the alien impregnation cliche as some kind of ploy by the right wing anti-abortion crowd, which...I still have no idea how that's supposed to make sense.
    Uh...whut.

    Well then.

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  22. #137
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    Here's the video.



    It IS a creepy trope (which is the point, I guess. I'm not a sci-fi person), but the political bit still comes out of nowhere, and makes no sense.

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  23. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotime View Post
    Good lord. But to be fair, the Olympics was intended to foster this type of attitude to some degree in the first place, wasn't it? At least on national lines.
    To be honest I think Latisha has been looking at too many comic books

    When you're doing something like gymnastics, I expect hair to be pinned back and out of one's face. Hell when I'm concentrating on something I pull my hair back.

    So I'm sorry Ms. Jenkins... I am for real...

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  25. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alice Herring View Post
    * * *

    "I was listening to "Blink" on audiobook the other day, and the author pointed out in a study that black students did better on the SAT's when prior to taking the test they were exposed to positive examples of their race. . . . Granted, I don't have access to the original data. . . ."
    Malcolm Gladwell is a psuedo-intellectual.

    He plays pretty free and loose with "original data."

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    "Really, I just want to see a good adventure story where the lead just happens to be a girl, rather than having a female lead - if that makes sense."

    look, most comics are for babies. put them down and read a proper book if you want serious subjects and proper female characters. any bookshop will have Anna karenina or Pride and Prejudice or jane Eyre or To Kill A Mockingbird.. or any of a thousand superb books with proper women with brains as well as tits. in fact, if you havent already, read as many orange-spine penguin classics as you can, they help scratch the itch for serious stories that most comics wont ever be able to satisfy. and if you prefer your human dramas refracted through the prism of the fantastic to give them colour, read any science fiction or fantasy masterwork. and then make a comic about what you read.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; August 4th, 2012 at 01:17 PM.
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  28. #141
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    I think it's one thing to have a critical eye towards these kinds of things... and another to actively look for problems with how women exclusively are portrayed in different media. And another thing I feel like most people overlook when it comes to these kinds of things... Crappy stories will be crappy. You can't expect a person to write a good female lead if he can't write a good story to begin with. If it's a guy writing the story the odds are that his female characters will be more 2-dimensional than the male. And vice versa if a girl writes the story. I think that's just human psychology. And as a general rule of thumb (in my experience anyway) well written stories will have well written characters, both male and female.

    And as far as tropes go... tvtropes.org is a really fun site to read articles on. But after a while you also realize that pretty much anything can be made into a trope. And that doesn't make them any less of a valuable adition to a story. I don't think you should avoid clichés like the plague if you're a writer, as long as you're actually aware that they are just that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    "Really, I just want to see a good adventure story where the lead just happens to be a girl, rather than having a female lead - if that makes sense."

    look, most comics are for babies. put them down and read a proper book if you want serious subjects and proper female characters. any bookshop will have Anna karenina or Pride and Prejudice or jane Eyre or To Kill A Mockingbird.. or any of a thousand superb books with proper women with brains as well as tits. in fact, if you havent already, read as many orange-spine penguin classics as you can, they help scratch the itch for serious stories that most comics wont ever be able to satisfy. and if you prefer your human dramas refracted through the prism of the fantastic to give them colour, read any science fiction or fantasy masterwork. and then make a comic about what you read.
    OR we all could just stop talking about American superhero-comics or eastern mangas and check out what treasures Europe has to offer to us meaningful women wise.

    To name a few: Modesty Blaise, Yoko Tsuno, The Extraordinary Adventures of Adèle Blanc-Sec etc.

    And you are definitely right, some comics are directed for babies, some for teens and some for adults. It is completely unfair to denounce comics as lesser form of culture compared to books.

    Edit: What about meaningful stories? We don't have to go further than Donald Duck for that. Many stories by Carl Barks & Don Rosa, albeit sporting a humorous tone, have often either some deep historical facts behind their adventures or some deeper meaning or a teaching. The latter is especially apparent in Barks' stuff.

    Last edited by Eelis Kyttänen; August 4th, 2012 at 05:26 PM.
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    A culture that has no purpose other than to stimulate can only exhaust its audience by wasting their time without providing psychic nourishment. The idea that it has been left to this utterly demoralized culture to educate our people in morals and ethics and provide role models is a terrible indictment of our civilizational common sense. Might as well send your children off to grammar school at one of those small-time carnivals that rolls through town now and again.

    At least Icarus tried!


    My Process: Dead Rider Graphic Novel (Dark Horse Comics) plus oil paintings, pencils and other goodies:
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  33. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    "Personal Jesus" is a better song. . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    "Personal Jesus" is a better song. . .
    It is, but People Are People was a more appropriate response at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    It is, but People Are People was a more appropriate response at the time.
    Very true.

    But, I always get Depeche Mode mixed up with New Order anyway.

    "Blue Monday's" insistent line "how does it feel to treat me like you do?" would probably fit. . .



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  37. #147
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    Heres the good 7.27 minute version



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  38. #148
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    "a terrible indictment of our civilizational common sense. "

    I know you don't believe climate change is real kev, or the models dont come up to your exacting specifications, or whatever, and to be fair i got this information from that paradigm of atmospheric physics Rolling Stone Magazine, but I read that if we can keep global warming to 2 degrees or below, we may not disrupt the systems we rely on for food and water and air too much. We have about 560 gigatonnes of CO2 capacity in the atmosphere before that imaginary 2degree line is crossed.

    The big energy companies have something like 2500 gigatonnes of C02 stored in their fossil fuel reserves and they intend to sell and burn it all.

    If they (we) do this, we create a science fiction earth, largely uninhabitable. Our children will die in nuclear war, or because there isnt enough food.

    Civilizational common sense is not our strong suit.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...-math-20120719



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    " It is completely unfair to denounce comics as lesser form of culture compared to books."

    Let me put it this way. I like comics. Im no comic fan, I dont buy them and I dont give two shits about most of them, but theyre a pretty cool form of telling a story.

    You might not know this but Kev Ferrera who you see posting above is an artist who uses comics as his medium. He tells serious stories through his incredible artwork. Click through his sig and see.

    Im not saying comics are a lesser form of culture compared to books. Im saying that, like books, only a very few are great, and most are total shite. Most comics are cheesy, childish bullshit.
    Maus, Watchmen, Kingdom Come, Sandman, are great books. Elwell Kev and the others will name more, but if you have a hunger for serious stories, you need to brave the brutal modernist cover art and pick up some classic literature yo. These novels are called classics for a reason, not because theyre high-fallutin and difficult and will hurt your brain. Its because theyre accessible and brilliant and timeless. You wont regret it.

    http://entertainment.time.com/2005/1...-kingsley-amis

    BTW Im 100% with you re Donald Duck. He was my favourite when I was little. Im also, slightly guiltily a giant fan of JLA and I think Neon Genesis is the animated 2001, but dont tell anyone ok?

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; August 4th, 2012 at 10:02 PM.
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  41. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    Malcolm Gladwell is a psuedo-intellectual.

    He plays pretty free and loose with "original data."
    Well it's certainly more intellectual than I am! And that's precisely why I mentioned that *I* don't have the original data. Either way, there were some interesting thoughts in the book. (Not sure I agree with all of them, but still interesting.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    "Really, I just want to see a good adventure story where the lead just happens to be a girl, rather than having a female lead - if that makes sense."

    look, most comics are for babies. put them down and read a proper book if you want serious subjects and proper female characters. any bookshop will have Anna karenina or Pride and Prejudice or jane Eyre or To Kill A Mockingbird.. or any of a thousand superb books with proper women with brains as well as tits. in fact, if you havent already, read as many orange-spine penguin classics as you can, they help scratch the itch for serious stories that most comics wont ever be able to satisfy. and if you prefer your human dramas refracted through the prism of the fantastic to give them colour, read any science fiction or fantasy masterwork. and then make a comic about what you read.
    ahh. I think there are some crossed wires. I'm going to repeat what I said. "Really, I just want to see a good adventure story where the lead just happens to be a girl, rather than having a female lead - if that makes sense."

    I'm fairly certainly Pride and Prejudice is NOT an adventure story. I actually don't like Jane Austen, but thanks for the recommendation. As for science fiction or fantasy masterwork - I'm certainly open to suggestions (and honestly, as long is it's a good story that's fine too. I COULD TOTALLY USE MORE BOOKS.) Are there any authors that you like who maybe aren't well known?

    Also, what you couldn't have known (because I wasn't clear) is that I was primarily talking about film. I haven't read mainstream comics in a very long time, partly because I don't think they are well written and partly because it's frustrating to me to get such small portions of a story at a time. So instead I'm building an interest in independent trades, and thankfully I have friends who have some great recommendations.

    Speaking of film, I totally just tried to watch Transformers 3. Yikes!

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