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Scott Summers...is another example.
When Ian was cast as Magneto I don't recall seeing people outraged he didn't look like Jim Lee's Magneto.
Hulk is another interesting example, the kind of build has been a constant complaint in the various movies that brought him to screen.
Even Alex Ross made a decision to draw Superman in a certain build. He mentioned it.
The problem with female characters is just more than the "Busty" girls, it's also the bizarre poses for the sake of being "dynamic" broken backs, no internal organs, 15 characters that look more like someone was playing alternate character color 2 and beyond in the next Capcom game. aka Palette Swap.
Last edited by Arshes Nei; August 3rd, 2012 at 09:34 PM.
(which I grew up on as well) always had unconventional heroes and story
Tyranny Rex is another example. She was an artist...and a reptile! Here's
an article about one of her stories and a mention of Halo.
Try and get hold of Miracleman by Alan Moore, my art teacher leant me it when I was 16 and thought comics were all like Garfield and Asterix and it scared the living fuck out of me. Seriously fucking cool!
"Even Alex Ross made a decision to draw Superman in a certain build. He mentioned it. "
I think Alex's Supes is the definitive one; geniu intellect to go with his amazing powers, older, lonelier, sadder, but also optimistic. The hero we need!
Last edited by Velocity Kendall; August 3rd, 2012 at 03:21 PM.
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Just have to say it. Alan Moore is fantastic. Actually reading Watchmen again
However, that doesn't mean that women should be scrutinized for not fitting the ideal figure that the media projects (and is pretty unrealistic and oftentimes part of a strict regimen of plastic surgery and weight related drugs.
That does not absolve parents from actual poor parenting. However, that doesn't mean society and culture at large isn't a part of it what causes esteem issues and differences. We don't live in a bubble, there are outside influences besides parents and problems can materialize after parenting is done as an adult.
Of course it is easier to complain, it's easy to complain about the status quo for a lot of issues
You know what fuck it, we talk about Christianity and religion from now on, we'll just go "bad parenting" is why it exists.
Anyways, maybe I'm biased because I grew up watching characters like He-Man and Thundercats (when they were bodybuilders), but I would hate to see everyone drawing realistic males and females all the time. An artist should be able to draw what they want and their are plenty of artists who like to draw exaggerated females.
Even more, Kev did have a point...if you don't like it, you don't have to look at it. That's not to be taken as an offense, but the truth. As an example of me practicing what I preach, I recently came across a piece of artwork that I found offensive (regarding race); before getting all up in arms, I just closed the webpage and went elsewhere.
Bottom line is, it's not right to try and censor everyone just because your sensibilities were affected in a negative way by something someone else did. It's okay for you to not like it, and if that's the case, you should draw them the way you see fit. But, you can't expect to push your beliefs on everyone else and have people just conform to it
The fact that we're even having this discussion should tell you this. I can't count how many times I've seen this video:
Posted in response to someones drawing of a female in sexy armor.
It all comes down to people being offended by the way certain artists portray females in entertainment and them wanting to put an end to it.
Change does not equal censorship.
So, based on threads like this (and again, I've seen too many like it), one can't help but feel that people want to censor other artists because they feel that certain things are not appropriate for whatever reason.
But again, I see where you guys are coming from and I'll leave it at that because in the end, I do agree that there should be a variety.
The research supports parenting (conditioning) as the major factor for people with esteem issues. Ideals come from your beliefs which hopefully were guided by your parents when you were young and encouraged by them when you got older. If parents are doing their job they make sure children know you don't get your self worth from other people, especially not from a magazine or TV or the Web.
Plenty of people in the society that don't define themselves by their looks, men and women. Its like blaming kids shooting people on rock music. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Most people don't plan families or their lives for that matter, is it no wonder they raise children with psychological issues?
As far as the status quo goes I make changes with things that are important to me.
Comics are the least of my cares in the world. I stopped supporting mainstream comics 20 years ago. I think for the most part they're crap with few exceptions. The fact that Liefeld and his clones can get work is enough for me to never want to work for any comic company ever.
Change happens because individuals take a stand for their rights, that's the only way change really happens. If you care about the lack of diversity in comics or other media then write letters and use your buying power, or use your talents to make something better.
Most of this type of art has appeared in main stream comics over the last twenty years. Before that the comics code held people in check. People lobbied for the removal of the code and got what they wanted which is freedom to do what they want to make more adult themes and better more compelling stories. In real life that translates to emotionally stunted people drawing what they want ( almost nekkid women with big tits) with no restrictions.
In other news. . .
The McDonald's corporation continues to sell calorie dense nutritionally bankrupt menu items.
I'll show them, I will!
I'll "vote with my wallet."
Oh, they'll be a hurtin'. . .
Anytime now. . .
If this thread was just about superhero comics I wouldn't be saying this, since as most people said it's pretty easy to avoid the lame ones. But Kev, it seems to me your response to Psychotime, Arshes Nei and others concerns about the effect of pervasive sexism on women from the media in general, not to mention any experienced in their actual day to day lives, is that they should just "learn to accept the fact"? As long as nothing physical happens?
You tell Arshes sexism and racism are barely comparable, then immediately go on to point out one of the many ways in which they are? Misrepresentation, lack of visibilty and stereotyping in media do a bit more harm than just making people doubt their worth based on physical appearance, though that isn't exactly a trivial matter and certainly isn't something that just affects insecure kids. If the culture of objectification, dehumanisation and commodification of women and how it affects the attitude of everybody doesn't concern you that's fine, but you seem a bit keen to tell other people not be bothered by it. Maybe I'm gettin' you all wrong though? I usually respect your arguments. I don't usually see you making excuses for people who shame and belittle others though, which is what those evaluations (or 'compliments') do. And then suggest people put up with this, day to day, from people in an environment they often can't escape because they have to make a living. Maybe it's not physical, but it can sure make a women fear for her physical safety around these guys. This fear is not something you can just relax about.
dpaint, I dunno, I doubt even vigilant parents can shield children from the effects of social conditioning without cutting them off from the world and all their peers. It's a bit much to expect of them!
I feel a bit daft about jumping in just to focus solely on that tangent, but dismissing those points mentioned as just being the whinings of cultural control freaks kinda gets to me. Am I too sensitive? Biased? Probably shoulda waited another day. I'm totally gonna come back to this and feel like a preachy asshole. Darn you Kev!
The fact is that the majority of the people who have a problem with the works never contribute to the industry in any way, so telling them to do what they've already BEEN doing isn't going to change anything. The people who take issue probably vastly outnumber the people that actually put any money into the industry.
I personally think it's better to follow Sara "Babs" Lima's opinion that she stated way back during the Starfire reboot debacle, which is that you send a louder message by buying works that are actually GOOD, because they do exist. They're too used to people not buying anything already. They've gone bankrupt more than once.
When you look at the big picture, a person's input about an industry doesn't mean much of anything if they never contribute anything to it in the first place. The only people that the mainstream has to worry about is the tiny fanbase that does spend any money.
I think that the only way to change the industry is to simply buy good comics, instead of none at all. They DO notice trends.
What do you think was the reason Marvel made abominations like this?
That's a real comic.
Yeah, I'm rambling, but that's not new.
Honestly, I'm pretty sure if the mainstream's owners (Disney and Time Warner) made the push to force Marvel and DC to broaden their output so that their properties can start to make as much money as their record-breaking blockbuster adaptations, as opposed to the pitiable sales comics have had in the US for the last 20 years; there'd be a change.
It really makes no sense how much superhero movies make despite the pathetic sales of the actual comics. You'd think they'd want to make sure the source material appeals to the millions who watch the movies and cartoons, but ironically wouldn't touch comics with a ten-foot pole.
Maybe there's a contract thing involved that prevents executive meddling from the higher ups.
I've said before that the mainstream has a responsibility to the industry to improve it's reputation as a medium, because thanks to some serious BAD LUCK during the 50's that outright murdered dozens of once viable genres, Marvel and DC became the face of an entire MEDIUM and to how it's perceived in this side of the world. The problem is that as companies they don't really care about that.
Wanna know the highest selling comics from the last 4 years? The only time they can expect to go over 200,000 units is when they have a big enough gimmick. So in other words, the usual reboots and crossovers they do every year.
2008 - Marvel Secret Invasion #1 - 250,213
2009 - Spider-Man Meets Obama - 530,500; Highest selling paperback is Walking Dead Vol 1, at 43,900.
2010 - Heroic Age Avengers #1 - 175,100; Highest selling paperback is Watchmen, at 70,000.
2011 - Justice League #1 (New 52) - 231,000; Highest selling paperback is Walking Dead Vol 1, at 34,700.
Now the highest selling superhero movies of the last 4 years that are based on Marvel or DC properties.
2008 - The Dark Knight - 73,955,652 tickets sold; 10,944,319 DVD's sold.
2009 - X-Men Origins: Wolverine - 23,984,421 tickets sold; 4,332,607 DVD's sold
2010 - Iron Man 2 - 39,598,648 tickets sold; 5,065,079 DVD's sold.
2011 - Thor - 22,828,578 tickets sold; 1,166,884 DVD's sold.
Seriously, for each comic book sold, there's more than 100 tickets sold to go see a superhero movie! What kind of sense does that make?
Last edited by Psychotime; August 3rd, 2012 at 08:56 PM.
This was just an interesting article regarding the decline in sex ratio in India:
Well, that was news to me as well because I've always heard women outnumbering men. However, the point I was trying to make was not necessarily about being a minority (it was a poor choice of words on my part), but as a person who is also a part of a group (out of many groups) that is/was not treated as equals, I understand where you're coming from (although I don't use this line of thinking to justify anything that I do or don't do).
The reason I used minority though is because I was thinking of a person who has the least amount of power and dominance, not necessarily who outnumbers who.
I might find pornography involving women crushing small animals to be offensive. As well, I might consider the Hummer H3 to be a major waste of resources. And, I might consider a pizza with "cheese inside the crust" with extra cheese on top (and perhaps a side of cheese you can dip it in) to really be taking fast food to a new level of decadence. But, there are enough other people to buy these things and money to be made in selling them.