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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by bish0p2004 View Post
    Of course they don't have to be built that way, but some people choose to draw them that way just like some people only choose to draw muscular males (which surprisingly, you don't see as many complaints on).

    Personally, I do like to see a variety of body types, but I will never complain if someone chooses to only draw busty females or muscular males.
    Actually there have been. As I mentioned Magneto. It was all well and good in the 90's but then people remembered "uhh Magneto wasn't a bodybuilder"

    Scott Summers...is another example.

    When Ian was cast as Magneto I don't recall seeing people outraged he didn't look like Jim Lee's Magneto.

    Hulk is another interesting example, the kind of build has been a constant complaint in the various movies that brought him to screen.

    Even Alex Ross made a decision to draw Superman in a certain build. He mentioned it.

    The problem with female characters is just more than the "Busty" girls, it's also the bizarre poses for the sake of being "dynamic" broken backs, no internal organs, 15 characters that look more like someone was playing alternate character color 2 and beyond in the next Capcom game. aka Palette Swap.

    Last edited by Arshes Nei; August 3rd, 2012 at 09:34 PM.
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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aly Fell View Post
    If Alan Moore can do it in 1984, I have no idea why it can't be done today:

    The Ballad of Halo Jones

    "In his introductions to the three 1986 Titan editions, Moore described its genesis. The story was designed from the outset to avoid the typical 2000 AD story elements: "guns, guys and gore." Moore said that he had "no inclination to unleash yet another "Tough Bitch With A Disintegrator And An Extra 'Y' Chromosome" upon the world". The idea to base the strip around an ordinary, unremarkable woman, typical of the society she lived in, was also very different for 2000 AD."
    Yeah, but that's 2000AD for you. As Farvus said, the European comics
    (which I grew up on as well) always had unconventional heroes and story
    lines.

    Tyranny Rex is another example. She was an artist...and a reptile! Here's
    an article about one of her stories and a mention of Halo.

    http://meanwhileon.blogspot.com/2006...-well-ard.html

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  4. #93
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    Try and get hold of Miracleman by Alan Moore, my art teacher leant me it when I was 16 and thought comics were all like Garfield and Asterix and it scared the living fuck out of me. Seriously fucking cool!



    "Even Alex Ross made a decision to draw Superman in a certain build. He mentioned it. "

    I think Alex's Supes is the definitive one; geniu intellect to go with his amazing powers, older, lonelier, sadder, but also optimistic. The hero we need!

    Breaking Gender Roles

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...-math-20120719

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; August 3rd, 2012 at 03:21 PM.
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  5. #94
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    Just have to say it. Alan Moore is fantastic. Actually reading Watchmen again
    right now.

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  6. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Yeah, because people who look like this and don't compete professionally are so attractive with their heart disease, type 2 diabetes, cancer, arthritis and sleep apnea, all before their 40. Since over one third of America is obese lets make all the media reflect that, so fat, unhealthy people can feel good about being that way. Its so American.
    I don't think it's fair to say that all people who look like this have type 2 diabetes, heart disease, etc. And I have sleep apnea and I'm barely overweight if at all! Yes, a lot of America is obese and it is an unhealthy lifestyle compared to optimum health.

    However, that doesn't mean that women should be scrutinized for not fitting the ideal figure that the media projects (and is pretty unrealistic and oftentimes part of a strict regimen of plastic surgery and weight related drugs.

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  7. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Poor parenting is to blame for those problems, not comics or media in general. The argument that people need to better society is the same argument the fundie, right wing, Christians trot out every time they see two men or two women kissing on TV or someone having sex before marriage.
    Parents live in this society and culture is part of it. I kinda doubt that "poor parenting" is the cause of people's ideals and differences.

    That does not absolve parents from actual poor parenting. However, that doesn't mean society and culture at large isn't a part of it what causes esteem issues and differences. We don't live in a bubble, there are outside influences besides parents and problems can materialize after parenting is done as an adult.

    Of course it is easier to complain, it's easy to complain about the status quo for a lot of issues

    You know what fuck it, we talk about Christianity and religion from now on, we'll just go "bad parenting" is why it exists.

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  8. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Actually there have been. As I mentioned Magneto. It was all well and good in the 90's but then people remembered "uhh Magneto wasn't a bodybuilder"

    Scott Summers...is another example.

    When Ian was cast as Magneto I don't recall seeing people outraged he didn't look like Jim Lee's Magneto.

    Hulk is another interesting example, the kind of build has been a constant complaint in the various movies that brought him to screen.

    Even Alex Ross made a decision to draw Superman in a certain build. He mentioned it.

    The problem with female characters is just more than the "Busty" girls, it's also the bizarre poses for the sake of being "dynamic" broken backs, no internal organs, 15 characters that look more like someone was playing Characters 2 and beyond in the next Capcom game.
    Okay I'll give you that, but I have to say then that the complaints regarding the muscular males aren't as prominent as the complaints regarding females. But then again, minorities are usually the most vocal, so I can understand that.

    Anyways, maybe I'm biased because I grew up watching characters like He-Man and Thundercats (when they were bodybuilders), but I would hate to see everyone drawing realistic males and females all the time. An artist should be able to draw what they want and their are plenty of artists who like to draw exaggerated females.

    Even more, Kev did have a point...if you don't like it, you don't have to look at it. That's not to be taken as an offense, but the truth. As an example of me practicing what I preach, I recently came across a piece of artwork that I found offensive (regarding race); before getting all up in arms, I just closed the webpage and went elsewhere.

    Bottom line is, it's not right to try and censor everyone just because your sensibilities were affected in a negative way by something someone else did. It's okay for you to not like it, and if that's the case, you should draw them the way you see fit. But, you can't expect to push your beliefs on everyone else and have people just conform to it

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  9. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by bish0p2004 View Post
    Bottom line is, it's not right to try and censor everyone just because your sensibilities were affected in a negative way by something someone else did. It's okay for you to not like it, and if that's the case, you should draw them the way you see fit. But, you can't expect to push your beliefs on everyone else and have people just conform to it
    Where is the argument for censorship in this thread vs asking for diversity and progress or "wouldn't it be nice if?"

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  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Where is the argument for censorship in this thread vs asking for diversity and progress or "wouldn't it be nice if?"
    It's implied.

    The fact that we're even having this discussion should tell you this. I can't count how many times I've seen this video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTGh0EMmMC8

    Posted in response to someones drawing of a female in sexy armor.

    It all comes down to people being offended by the way certain artists portray females in entertainment and them wanting to put an end to it.

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  11. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by bish0p2004 View Post
    It's implied.
    I'm sorry but BS. It was someone bringing in a strawman.

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  12. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    I'm sorry but BS. It was someone bringing in a strawman.
    Okay, so why are we having this discussion then? Why do people even argue about this if change is not what they want?

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  13. #102
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    Change does not equal censorship.

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  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by bish0p2004 View Post
    It all comes down to people being offended by the way certain artists portray females in entertainment and them wanting to put an end to it.
    Who's saying stop it? Diversify doesn't mean stop doing something, it means broaden, include, adapt... There IS room for something else other than the stereotype... room to be inclusive. It's not like anyone is going to take big breasted, skimpily clad, blondes away from you! They'll be here for a long time!

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  16. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Change does not equal censorship.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aly Fell View Post
    Who's saying stop it? Diversify doesn't mean stop doing something, it means broaden, include, adapt... There IS room for something else other than the stereotype... room to be inclusive. It's not like anyone is going to take big breasted, skimpily clad, blondes away from you! They'll be here for a long time!
    I see what you guys are saying. But as I've mentioned before, too many times I've seen in the C+C forums that youtube video posted anytime someone draws a female in sexy armor. Here's an example from last week:

    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=243600

    So, based on threads like this (and again, I've seen too many like it), one can't help but feel that people want to censor other artists because they feel that certain things are not appropriate for whatever reason.

    But again, I see where you guys are coming from and I'll leave it at that because in the end, I do agree that there should be a variety.

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  17. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Parents live in this society and culture is part of it. I kinda doubt that "poor parenting" is the cause of people's ideals and differences.


    That does not absolve parents from actual poor parenting. However, that doesn't mean society and culture at large isn't a part of it what causes esteem issues and differences. We don't live in a bubble, there are outside influences besides parents and problems can materialize after parenting is done as an adult.

    Of course it is easier to complain, it's easy to complain about the status quo for a lot of issues

    You know what fuck it, we talk about Christianity and religion from now on, we'll just go "bad parenting" is why it exists.
    Religion for the most part is passed down from ones parents.

    The research supports parenting (conditioning) as the major factor for people with esteem issues. Ideals come from your beliefs which hopefully were guided by your parents when you were young and encouraged by them when you got older. If parents are doing their job they make sure children know you don't get your self worth from other people, especially not from a magazine or TV or the Web.

    Plenty of people in the society that don't define themselves by their looks, men and women. Its like blaming kids shooting people on rock music. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Most people don't plan families or their lives for that matter, is it no wonder they raise children with psychological issues?

    As far as the status quo goes I make changes with things that are important to me.

    Comics are the least of my cares in the world. I stopped supporting mainstream comics 20 years ago. I think for the most part they're crap with few exceptions. The fact that Liefeld and his clones can get work is enough for me to never want to work for any comic company ever.

    Change happens because individuals take a stand for their rights, that's the only way change really happens. If you care about the lack of diversity in comics or other media then write letters and use your buying power, or use your talents to make something better.

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  19. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by bish0p2004 View Post
    Okay I'll give you that, but I have to say then that the complaints regarding the muscular males aren't as prominent as the complaints regarding females. But then again, minorities are usually the most vocal, so I can understand that.

    Anyways, maybe I'm biased because I grew up watching characters like He-Man and Thundercats (when they were bodybuilders), but I would hate to see everyone drawing realistic males and females all the time. An artist should be able to draw what they want and their are plenty of artists who like to draw exaggerated females.

    Even more, Kev did have a point...if you don't like it, you don't have to look at it. That's not to be taken as an offense, but the truth. As an example of me practicing what I preach, I recently came across a piece of artwork that I found offensive (regarding race); before getting all up in arms, I just closed the webpage and went elsewhere.

    Bottom line is, it's not right to try and censor everyone just because your sensibilities were affected in a negative way by something someone else did. It's okay for you to not like it, and if that's the case, you should draw them the way you see fit. But, you can't expect to push your beliefs on everyone else and have people just conform to it
    Women aren't actually a minority.

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  20. #107
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    Most of this type of art has appeared in main stream comics over the last twenty years. Before that the comics code held people in check. People lobbied for the removal of the code and got what they wanted which is freedom to do what they want to make more adult themes and better more compelling stories. In real life that translates to emotionally stunted people drawing what they want ( almost nekkid women with big tits) with no restrictions.

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  22. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alice Herring View Post
    Women aren't actually a minority.
    Oh yeah?

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  23. #109
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    In other news. . .

    The McDonald's corporation continues to sell calorie dense nutritionally bankrupt menu items.

    I'll show them, I will!

    I'll "vote with my wallet."

    Oh, they'll be a hurtin'. . .

    Anytime now. . .

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  25. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alice Herring View Post
    Women aren't actually a minority.
    No, they are there are 107 males for every 100 females in the world. In the USA there are 105 male for every 100 females.

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  26. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    In other news. . .

    The McDonald's corporation continues to sell calorie dense nutritionally bankrupt menu items.

    I'll show them, I will!

    I'll "vote with my wallet."

    Oh, they'll be a hurtin'. . .

    Anytime now. . .
    You don't do it to hurt the other party you do it because you actually have a belief system and you choose not to support things you disagree with or find offensive. Very simple and works really well. When enough people of similar interests all withhold money or support then corporations and societies listen and change.

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  27. #112
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    If this thread was just about superhero comics I wouldn't be saying this, since as most people said it's pretty easy to avoid the lame ones. But Kev, it seems to me your response to Psychotime, Arshes Nei and others concerns about the effect of pervasive sexism on women from the media in general, not to mention any experienced in their actual day to day lives, is that they should just "learn to accept the fact"? As long as nothing physical happens?

    You tell Arshes sexism and racism are barely comparable, then immediately go on to point out one of the many ways in which they are? Misrepresentation, lack of visibilty and stereotyping in media do a bit more harm than just making people doubt their worth based on physical appearance, though that isn't exactly a trivial matter and certainly isn't something that just affects insecure kids. If the culture of objectification, dehumanisation and commodification of women and how it affects the attitude of everybody doesn't concern you that's fine, but you seem a bit keen to tell other people not be bothered by it. Maybe I'm gettin' you all wrong though? I usually respect your arguments. I don't usually see you making excuses for people who shame and belittle others though, which is what those evaluations (or 'compliments') do. And then suggest people put up with this, day to day, from people in an environment they often can't escape because they have to make a living. Maybe it's not physical, but it can sure make a women fear for her physical safety around these guys. This fear is not something you can just relax about.

    dpaint, I dunno, I doubt even vigilant parents can shield children from the effects of social conditioning without cutting them off from the world and all their peers. It's a bit much to expect of them!

    I feel a bit daft about jumping in just to focus solely on that tangent, but dismissing those points mentioned as just being the whinings of cultural control freaks kinda gets to me. Am I too sensitive? Biased? Probably shoulda waited another day. I'm totally gonna come back to this and feel like a preachy asshole. Darn you Kev!

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  28. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by caplets View Post


    dpaint, I dunno, I doubt even vigilant parents can shield children from the effects of social conditioning without cutting them off from the world and all their peers. It's a bit much to expect of them!

    !
    Well then explain why only a percentage of people have low self esteem, if its sooo pervasive and you can't escape it even with good parenting then why isn't it 100% of women?

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  29. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    You don't do it to hurt the other party you do it because you actually have a belief system and you choose not to support things you disagree with or find offensive. Very simple and works really well. When enough people of similar interests all withhold money or support then corporations and societies listen and change.
    The problem with that is that comic sales have been awful for a long time, regardless.

    The fact is that the majority of the people who have a problem with the works never contribute to the industry in any way, so telling them to do what they've already BEEN doing isn't going to change anything. The people who take issue probably vastly outnumber the people that actually put any money into the industry.

    I personally think it's better to follow Sara "Babs" Lima's opinion that she stated way back during the Starfire reboot debacle, which is that you send a louder message by buying works that are actually GOOD, because they do exist. They're too used to people not buying anything already. They've gone bankrupt more than once.

    When you look at the big picture, a person's input about an industry doesn't mean much of anything if they never contribute anything to it in the first place. The only people that the mainstream has to worry about is the tiny fanbase that does spend any money.

    I think that the only way to change the industry is to simply buy good comics, instead of none at all. They DO notice trends.

    What do you think was the reason Marvel made abominations like this?

    Breaking Gender Roles

    That's a real comic.

    Yeah, I'm rambling, but that's not new.

    Honestly, I'm pretty sure if the mainstream's owners (Disney and Time Warner) made the push to force Marvel and DC to broaden their output so that their properties can start to make as much money as their record-breaking blockbuster adaptations, as opposed to the pitiable sales comics have had in the US for the last 20 years; there'd be a change.

    It really makes no sense how much superhero movies make despite the pathetic sales of the actual comics. You'd think they'd want to make sure the source material appeals to the millions who watch the movies and cartoons, but ironically wouldn't touch comics with a ten-foot pole.

    Maybe there's a contract thing involved that prevents executive meddling from the higher ups.

    I've said before that the mainstream has a responsibility to the industry to improve it's reputation as a medium, because thanks to some serious BAD LUCK during the 50's that outright murdered dozens of once viable genres, Marvel and DC became the face of an entire MEDIUM and to how it's perceived in this side of the world. The problem is that as companies they don't really care about that.

    Another tangent!

    Wanna know the highest selling comics from the last 4 years? The only time they can expect to go over 200,000 units is when they have a big enough gimmick. So in other words, the usual reboots and crossovers they do every year.

    2008 - Marvel Secret Invasion #1 - 250,213
    2009 - Spider-Man Meets Obama - 530,500; Highest selling paperback is Walking Dead Vol 1, at 43,900.
    2010 - Heroic Age Avengers #1 - 175,100; Highest selling paperback is Watchmen, at 70,000.
    2011 - Justice League #1 (New 52) - 231,000; Highest selling paperback is Walking Dead Vol 1, at 34,700.

    Now the highest selling superhero movies of the last 4 years that are based on Marvel or DC properties.

    2008 - The Dark Knight - 73,955,652 tickets sold; 10,944,319 DVD's sold.
    2009 - X-Men Origins: Wolverine - 23,984,421 tickets sold; 4,332,607 DVD's sold
    2010 - Iron Man 2 - 39,598,648 tickets sold; 5,065,079 DVD's sold.
    2011 - Thor - 22,828,578 tickets sold; 1,166,884 DVD's sold.

    Seriously, for each comic book sold, there's more than 100 tickets sold to go see a superhero movie! What kind of sense does that make?

    Last edited by Psychotime; August 3rd, 2012 at 08:56 PM.
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  30. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by bish0p2004 View Post
    Oh yeah?
    At least in the US. The Census data is available online. (and shame on me for only thinking about US data - the world data does indicate more men than women.)

    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    No, they are there are 107 males for every 100 females in the world. In the USA there are 105 male for every 100 females.
    Uh...those look like the live birth statistics. (no argument there.) Where are you getting your data from?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...s_by_sex_ratio

    This was just an interesting article regarding the decline in sex ratio in India:
    http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...for-male-child

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  31. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Well then explain why only a percentage of people have low self esteem, if its sooo pervasive and you can't escape it even with good parenting then why isn't it 100% of women?
    Because People are People ...

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  33. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alice Herring View Post
    At least in the US. The Census data is available online. (and shame on me for only thinking about US data - the world data does indicate more men than women.)

    Well, that was news to me as well because I've always heard women outnumbering men. However, the point I was trying to make was not necessarily about being a minority (it was a poor choice of words on my part), but as a person who is also a part of a group (out of many groups) that is/was not treated as equals, I understand where you're coming from (although I don't use this line of thinking to justify anything that I do or don't do).

    The reason I used minority though is because I was thinking of a person who has the least amount of power and dominance, not necessarily who outnumbers who.

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    Arshes:

    Damn you, now I have that stuck in my head!

    Quote Originally Posted by bish0p2004 View Post
    Well, that was news to me as well because I've always heard women outnumbering men. However, the point I was trying to make was not necessarily about being a minority (it was a poor choice of words on my part), but as a person who is also a part of a group (out of many groups) that is/was not treated as equals, I understand where you're coming from (although I don't use this line of thinking to justify anything that I do or don't do).

    The reason I used minority though is because I was thinking of a person who has the least amount of power and dominance, not necessarily who outnumbers who.
    Fair enough.

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  36. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    You don't do it to hurt the other party you do it because you actually have a belief system and you choose not to support things you disagree with or find offensive. Very simple and works really well. When enough people of similar interests all withhold money or support then corporations and societies listen and change.
    The only thing you're missing with this is the idea of "niche marketing" or "lowest common denominator marketing" or perhaps even lowest common denominator niche marketing. . .

    I might find pornography involving women crushing small animals to be offensive. As well, I might consider the Hummer H3 to be a major waste of resources. And, I might consider a pizza with "cheese inside the crust" with extra cheese on top (and perhaps a side of cheese you can dip it in) to really be taking fast food to a new level of decadence. But, there are enough other people to buy these things and money to be made in selling them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Well then explain why only a percentage of people have low self esteem, if its sooo pervasive and you can't escape it even with good parenting then why isn't it 100% of women?
    It's called a difference in awareness, with some internalization and a good measure of apathy.

    Misogyny's about as deeply ingrained as body-shaming, or virgin/sl*t-shaming or whathaveyou.

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