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  1. #40
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    There have to be about a hundred animes where a featured character is called an otaku by one of the other characters or by the creaters themselves, and the otakus are usually comic figures not dangerous axe murderers. So I'm guessing the word has two connotations even in Japan.

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  3. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeeTwee View Post
    There have to be about a hundred animes where a featured character is called an otaku by one of the other characters or by the creaters themselves, and the otakus are usually comic figures not dangerous axe murderers. So I'm guessing the word has two connotations even in Japan.
    An otaku is an obsessed person, it's not "ax murderer"... The problem is that there were otaku that attributed to certain crimes. The incident Psychotime posted was still fresh in one of my friend's minds when she explained the problem with the word and even my ex bf who lived and did business in Japan (which was to bring anime and manga here and he was also a translator) had mentioned this was not a good word to use.

    Anime is already a plural -it's short for "animation"

    The other problem is anime is not really a good representation of what is Japan, anymore than Hollywood/movies is a good representation of what actually happens in the US. It is a form of entertainment and often uses language that is inappropriate to use in front of another Japanese person. That's why I said using Japanese words that you hear off your favorite anime is not exactly the best idea.

    It would be like thinking "shorty/ho/bitch" is an appropriate word to use around women in the US because you enjoy Rap and think it's an accurate representation of how people talk in the US.

    Last edited by Arshes Nei; July 12th, 2012 at 10:20 AM.
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  4. #42
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    The ax-murderer comment was a throwback to Psychotime's link, I was in no way being literal with that. Maybe I should add more winky emotes or something.

    The point was that they were made by japanese people for the consumption of a japanese audience and if they are fine with otaku being represented as comedic and slightly pitiable geeky fanboys/girls for the most part it's clear the word itself has two connotations, one being the way JesseM used it and the other being something more socially deviant and offensive. Just like the words shorty/bitch/ho in English.

    So yes someone could potentially make an astounding faux pax using the word otaku in general conversation over in Japan if you're not aware of the nuance, but I see what's so terribly wrong with JesseM's use of the word here in this forum topic?

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  5. #43
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    As I said "Any fan of Japanese culture would know better than to use the word otaku" - considering Jess is trying to make a case for Fine Art for anime...yeah.

    Second poster came in "Well it is less offensive in Japan"

    I explained why it is MORE offensive in Japan. So there you go.

    Sexual harassment is also played for comedy in a lot of Japanese anime too, what's your point? So now TV used it, it's ok?

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  6. #44
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    It's just I know lots of self-professed superfans of Japanese culture who use the word. It just seems like another 'real <somethings> don't...' discussion.

    And no, that wasn't my point... but if you want to go down that route sexual harrassment is played a lot in our own television programs for comedic effect too. We also like to portray rape and killings in a rather gratuitous light, which is fine because most people know the difference between fiction on tv and when things shouldn't be taken too seriously or too literally. And thank gawd for that, or we'd all be in trouble.

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  7. #45
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    Look.

    I know fans like to use borrowed words because it makes them feel ...well cool and knowledgeable. They know more words than probably the average fan interested in the genre. I certainly do know words and things most people who couldn't be bothered past Pokemon or Yugi-Oh or a few popular shows would care about.

    However, it's less of a "real fans don't" but you're trying to say you're really serious about making this paper - came over to CA for more info - and really it does kinda show how much you don't know. It's a paper on its place in fine art and that does show some cultural impact. It's impact on US culture is one thing...but doing this paper is kind of good about understanding the flip side of it as well.

    Hell my user name is after a character in anime/manga...there's still things going on in Japanese anime I don't always understand because of the culture.

    As for Japan's reaction about using this word we borrowed...company wise they're thinking about money. Once their economy tanked, anime and manga was actually their biggest good. Why bother if you need the money.

    It was also interesting as a side note how if you go to a Japanese board, you better speak Japanese (and be aware of how you use it too) - here, if you speak another language - we're more...understanding (not to say it's perfect but..). You speak English on a Japanese board...*hmmm looks away makes a few faces...*

    But if you want some more interesting anecdotes about usage - as stated it's pretty much for an obsessed fan. When my ex and I went out to the mall there was that cute little Train ride thing. He whispered over to me "look at the train otaku" it was a little boy who was dressed in a engineer's outfit who was ready to take his ride. Utterly adorable. However, I know he wouldn't have come up to his parents (specially if they were Japanese) and called their kid an otaku.

    But really manga most of all covers a LOT of stuff. Not just the "hey this was made into a cartoon" because they pretty much cover every demographic out there. Salary men, cooks, sports etc...
    I'm sure that most people are more into the other kind of stuff like fantasy, robots etc... and probably haven't seen any of the other genres out there too much. They probably won't cover it either - but the "cool shit we know and imported over here"

    I guess it's kinda like, I wouldn't have found some interesting art where people were putting together products like food (and not still life) but my teacher talking about airbrushing techniques and said "I used sand to give texture to things like ice cream" then your eyes open and you go back to products where people illustrated food instead of photos and admire techniques. Heck sometimes you didn't even realize they weren't photos

    So I dunno, I'd like to see something more covered than "man I saw these cool shows, time for a topic"

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  9. #46
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    Isn't a paper about doing research and actually finding out more about a thing rather than trying to prove your own point, anyway?

    It seems like a much more sensible title would be, "can anime be cathegorized as fine art?" Then you could break it down into, "what is fine art?", "what is anime?" and "which similarities/differences are there?"

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  10. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Otaku used on another person is actually an insult, however, it's not just "geek" (and non specific towards the hobby) - it's more like obsessed to the point of extreme unhealthiness - but certain events that have happened in Japan's history gives this word even more negative connotations . For example, very few instances of crime were often attributed to those that were otaku - ie child molesters, serial perpetrators...

    There's also cultural aspects as to why this word is not a good word to use - but hey people see a loose translation and think after watching anime that the Japanese language is actually spoken that way and thinks that's how Japanese is actually used!

    So I don't know where you think it's "less offensive" because unkept social retard who might do things like to the point sexually molest younger kids (for example because they're obsessed with a certain hobby) or try to marry their fad is just being a geek. There are people in the states that are geeks...then there's what otaku actually are seen culturally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotime View Post
    No, no it doesn't. This is one of the cases Arshes Nei is talking about.
    Huh. Yes, I think I have vaguely heard of the Miyazaki case somewhere a long time ago, but I didn't think that the stigma was still so strongly attached to that. Well, that shows what I know! I do believe that what you say is true, but I also think it's probable that not all of Japan subscribes to this darker definition of "otaku", based on this article. But anyway, I am willing to relinquish this point on account of my being at least partly wrong and this being off-topic in the first place.

    Edit: Oh, by the way, the article I linked is an interview/discussion with Murakami Takashi and Okada Toshio, which may or may not be of interest to OP.
    Edit2: I just found out that the "A Nightmare Is A Dream Come True: Anime Expressionist Paintings" Exhibition is curated by Murakami Takashi. Also, JNTHED, the artist I mentioned, works in Murakami's studio! That is pretty cool.

    Last edited by Kuroyue; July 13th, 2012 at 04:52 PM.
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  11. #48
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    Tobba - I don't know where I implied that I think anime is fine art.. that's NOT my point and I'm NOT trying to prove that. And the questions you listed pretty much have been what most of this discussion was... until it derailed into the justness of mixing foreign slang into your English conversations.

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  12. #49
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    Yeah, sorry for making this thread derail a bit.

    How's the research coming along?

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  13. #50
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    Anime's place in the world of fine art
    In the world of western fine art: Little to None. Even teacher in visual art school advise student to steer away from manga-anime art style, unless they really stand out and not some carbon copy fanart.
    It's like how Asian men prefer asian woman. If you grew up with manga and anime, that will be your standard for what is beauty and what is not. If you grew up with western comic and cartoon, the standard change.

    1.) What do you DISLIKE about anime art?
    (the problem of 9 faces, too fanservicey/robot-filled, too many crap copiers who inhibit their own development by obeying a predetermined style, and/orrr..?)
    I can assure you that no two manga artists have the same style of drawing. No one predetermine what style anime and manga art must be.
    and fanservice and robot: You are getting on the content, not anime and manga as a art medium.
    Most anime are made by a few big name studio in the industry, it's their regconized style. So the problem of the same face, cliche, simple character, etc. It's all coming down to these studio. If a studio do only Gundam, they only do Gundam, if a studio do smut romance comedy with moe girl, they do just that in their operation life span.
    Manga is another diffirent story all together. Every manga has diffirent art style.

    When a manga is adapted into anime, studio take over the art, so what is signature in the manga maybe lost in the process.
    The manga
    The adaptation
    you can search for youtube on this one, and compare it with the original manga. This is my latest watch so i'll see if i can remember any other example.

    Plus manga and anime is a business, it's cost-effective. A artist can draw really beautiful but if he cant do it intime of deadline, he's pretty much shoot himself in the foot. Manga is balanced between drawing and telling the story.

    2.) Are there any GOOD anime-inspired artists (preferably illustrators) you'd like to recommend I use as examples?
    (I've got a pretty good selection already, but am always looking for more. Fyi, they don't have to be Japanese.)
    Here is where i have problem with most people with diffirent viewpoint on Anime-manga.
    Some only look at A-M from the 90s.
    Nowaday the line is blurred
    take this one for example
    http://sakimichan.deviantart.com/
    http://redjuice999.deviantart.com
    http://iwaisan.deviantart.com/
    some more Japanese fine art
    You can see that they are A-M influenced, but it's already bordering on fine art.

    Recommend Artist
    Soejima Shigenori (persona)
    Yoji Shinkawa (metal gear solid)
    George Kamitani (Odin sphere and Masamura the Demon blade) ( the latter has beautiful Japanese watercolor style)
    You should get their artbook, not the game itself.

    Recommend Anime
    Bakemonogatari and Nisemonogatari: really polish HD art.
    Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt: for a shock treatment on Japanese Anime.

    Sorry OP for putting in so much here, but i think if you were to do a presentation on A-M art, you better blow the audience away and change their perspective about A-M influenced art.

    Last edited by Marverick; July 14th, 2012 at 01:46 AM.
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  15. #51
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    It's CA.org. Topics get derailed on here all the time.
    Frankly most topics that span several pages almost always get derailed into subtopics and discussions.

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  16. #52
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    You can see that they are A-M influenced, but it's already bordering on fine art.
    To be honest I find those artists much more generic than a lot of manga-drawings from the ninenties. And it's not bordering on being fine art just because it's semi-realistic. Semi-real and colorful manga inspired art seem to be the norm on DA in general. Not saying some of those artists aren't good. But a lot of it's so samey that I get bored really quickly looking at it.

    Tobba - I don't know where I implied that I think anime is fine art.. that's NOT my point and I'm NOT trying to prove that. And the questions you listed pretty much have been what most of this discussion was... until it derailed into the justness of mixing foreign slang into your English conversations.
    Well, they weren't the questions you listed. And to me the op reads as if you're saying manga/anime should really be treated as fine art (in your opinion) and then you ask about what's good and what's bad about anime art. Neither of which is very objective.

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