Howard Pyle's Hierarchy of Fundamentals?
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    Howard Pyle's Hierarchy of Fundamentals?

    I heard this mentioned somewhere and cannot find it. I believe near the top of the list is Narrative, Composition and Value and near the bottom of the list is Color, and Details.

    Anyone have information on this? Also I think it was called Hierarchy of Fundamentals in Illustration, or something like that.

    Last edited by Shaggnasty; July 3rd, 2012 at 09:49 PM.
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    Well, Loomis has some notes from Pyle in Creative Illustration on pages 136-137. Barring that you could write to Ian Schoenherr who is the expert on all things Pyle
    http://howardpyle.blogspot.com/

    Pyle was all about the emotion and mood of a scene details didn't matter if they didn't support the supreme idea.
    from Jim Gurney who gave a talk on Pyle and his methods

    Pyle advised his students that “to put figures in violent action is theatrical and not dramatic.” He said that “in deep emotion there is a certain dignity and restraint of action which is more expressive.” The terror before the murder or the remorse afterward is more interesting than the act itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Pyle advised his students that “to put figures in violent action is theatrical and not dramatic.” He said that “in deep emotion there is a certain dignity and restraint of action which is more expressive.” The terror before the murder or the remorse afterward is more interesting than the act itself.
    theres a very interesting read on temple of the seven golden camels about that.

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    That is a great read and interesting to see how people don't get it in the comments; the comic guys think more action, more bodies is the way to go.
    Pyle is right on the money with his keen observation and he and his students and that tradition, at their best, created art that transcends the illustration itself by infusing the scene with emotion instead of action they make the image timeless. It becomes art with a capitol A.

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    Read 7 camels. Disagree. It's about depth, allusion. The concepts of before and after are types of depth. It makes no difference whether the action is quiet or violent. There is a difference between real violence and cheesy over the top posturing... there are also examples of cheesiness in quiet poses - the cliche of tilting someone's head back and putting a leg up to show arrogance, and so on.

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    whats your point?

    Disagree. It's about depth, allusion. The concepts of before and after are types of depth.
    as far as i got it, this is exactly what he was writing about. especially in his wyeth example for treasure island, where wyeth could aswell have picked a fight scene... not like there are none in treasure island.

    [edit] this example (still wyeth still treasure island), to me has less depth storywise.



    sorry for sidetracking the thread :/

    Last edited by sone_one; July 5th, 2012 at 06:36 AM.
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    Don't give him credit for what I wrote. The thread was not sidetracked. He specifically means violent movements, he wrote "film is great at capturing movement and action. It's very hard for a single image to capture the feeling of kinetic force, movement and action in the same way that film can." My point is that there is depth in violence. His point is about the possibilities for "character, personality and storytelling" in violent versus quiet events. His phrase "deep complex emotions" has the word deep in it, but it's not the same as specifically talking about depth. Paintings with violent action can be very good, like George Bellow's Stag at Sharkeys http://stojclovece.files.wordpress.c...-sharkeys1.jpg The pulp covers aren't very good for a mess of reasons, one is the suckyness of the figure drawing.

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    spam.

    Last edited by Black Spot; July 6th, 2012 at 01:14 AM.
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    "Pyle advised his students that “to put figures in violent action is theatrical and not dramatic.” He said that “in deep emotion there is a certain dignity and restraint of action which is more expressive.” The terror before the murder or the remorse afterward is more interesting than the act itself."

    interesting.

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    maybe im completely missing your point, because of the context that posting is made... him beeing a storyboard artist, talking about storytelling issues on his blog.

    what i read into that, is that quite often hiding the climax is more appropriate and dramatic than illustrating it, in all its blatant glory.

    could more appropriate examples been chosen to fit tightest expectations... most likely. could some points been more sophisticated? i dont doubt that.

    and still the question remains... whats your point? you object... fine by me, yet not something i want to argue about.

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    How explicit do I need to be? My point is that it is the allusiveness of the image that is important, not the fact that the figures in the picture are moving about a lot or a little.

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    well if you want to argue, you should be as explicit as necessary in my opinion. (english is my second language, which might be a barrier here, and its entirely not your fault...) yet i dont get it.

    youre reducing it to moving figures... thats not what my conclusion is.

    or are you saying that, before and after scenarios dont have the potential of deeper impact than the climax of blatant action? if yes im interested. if thats not your point im only marginally interested, feeling like wasting my time argueing moot points.

    [edit] to me your point is about semantics rather than conclusions....

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    (english is my second language, which might be a barrier here, and its entirely not your fault...)

    Google has an incredibly accurate translator that i use when communicating with europeans on websites. I even ask them to type in their first language even though i cant read a thing, then we work out the details and misconceptions slowly.

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    i think theres a time and a place for showing gore, for example, but without meaning its schlock.
    showing the context gives the people motives and feelings, and seeing those can be more powerful in some circumstances than nonstop asskicking.

    the austrian version of funny games uses both devices to powerful, totally horrifying effect. ive not seen the remake.

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    Speaking of showing the moment before the climax, in a way the pulp covers do exactly that. Well, a certain climax, anyway. Specifically most of them show the moment before the lady's dress comes off... Leaving the subsequent scene to the reader's imagination. And prompting them to buy the magazine in the hope they'll get to that scene.

    Just thought I'd mention it. Carry on.

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    A few weeks ago I was visiting the Pyle exhibition at the Norman Rockwell Museum and I was looking at this piece wondering what was bugging me.
    Then it dawned on me. And that's a great exemple to analyze Pyle's work:

    The most important thing is the story and what you are supposed to feel. Of course Pyle was a great draftsman, but the brush work and the drawing are subordinated to the story. Just consider that he wanted the setting sun in there, but all the characters are front lit. The cliffs also for that matter, they even have their bottoms in shadow to suggest that the sun is really low on the horizon. But that's not important compared to the story. No one could hold a mermaid on one foot with waves like that, but it's also less important than the story. I don't want to make the mistake of over analyzing the picture and giving Pyle intentions he doesn't have, but I feel like the setting sun is there to show the end of something... lovers having to part. It's there to drive the story but it didn't match the lighting Pyle wanted and the mood he intended so he chucked exactitude for storytelling. Now, the original is bluer than that and unfinished so it's hard to tell if it's exactly the right color, but the lighting is about right.

    Also, by looking at his originals you can tell he wasn't as passionate about brushstrokes as other painters. They are very competent pieces, but he doesn't show the same love of handling paint as some of his contemporaries do.

    By the way, it's a great show at the NRM, well worth the visit. And Rockwell's pieces are also on exhibit.

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