doing a painting and i have a quick question

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  1. #1
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    doing a painting and i have a quick question

    purely speaking in terms of value, when you increase the level of the light or bring the light closer to the object this doesnt increase the how dark the shadows are does it?

    it "seems" right but it doesnt look right, its just creating a never ending cycle of me needing to make the lights lighter and the darks darker.

    im putting a flash light with 3 brightness levels up against different things in my room and this doesnt look to be the case, but i thought id ask to be sure.

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  3. #2
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    Actually if you bring the light source closer/ make it more intense, it might affect the shadow darkness depending on how the light bounces. The reason the shadows aren't pitch black is because of bounced light, and so if the light source you alter is responsible for a good part of the bounced light, it will affect shadows. It might just seems that shadows are unaffected because the light source you change provides relatively little bounced light, or the relative change in the values of the light is greater than that of the shadow areas.

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    Showing us what you're talking about would be 1000x more effective.

    But I'll say this: all values are relative.

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    From my point of view, form shadows should be painted slightly differently to cast shadows. Since you know the direction of your light source, add darker hues to the sides of objects farther away from the light source.

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    sorry i couldnt respond sooner, just came back from seeing Abraham lincoln vampire hunter.. it was awful ;D

    i remember reading somewhere that paintings were studies in value first, taking that to mind and knowing i have more strength in values this is my first attempt not only really making a complete picture but also working in values first.

    i painted the whole scene in that really vibrant saturated blue and i started just basically working in values. once i had enough of the idea down i started selecting the lightest values and changing their hue to pink and turning up the saturation laying down the neonish pink to really give it a "club scene" vibe.

    as im trying to turn my lightest lights into the pink im finding that even though its the same value the more i warm the pink it slightly changes the value? even though the value is technically the same?

    im trying to slowly wash color into the picture and everytime i add a new brighter value it makes the shadows look not dark enough... which makes me think maybe they were never right? or possibly they were but i over did the values? originally the neon pink was supposed to be super saturated but even with the correct value it made the image look WAY over exposed.

    i dont know.. this is weird.

    any insight at all about anything would be appreciated.

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    Not sure how, or why you'd ever worry too much about making this even remotely natural? It is so stylized you just want to make it look cool. There is no generalized rule for this kind of stylization...so just make it look neat. That said, I would re-think the guy's right arm position, gesture, foreshortening, and proportion. Also the tangent with the weird tall guy in dark and the left forearm/wrist.

    The neon pink light source is currently only affecting faces and skin as well. You have to consider the local color, surface and texture of every plane facing the light and how that neon pink will illuminate it. A good way to do that is consider how a white object would be illuminated...a white matte, white glossy, etc. Do quick little spheres of those on the side as guides.

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  10. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by battlebattle View Post
    i painted the whole scene in that really vibrant saturated blue and i started just basically working in values. once i had enough of the idea down i started selecting the lightest values and changing their hue to pink and turning up the saturation laying down the neonish pink to really give it a "club scene" vibe.

    as im trying to turn my lightest lights into the pink im finding that even though its the same value the more i warm the pink it slightly changes the value? even though the value is technically the same?
    Actually, once you start adjusting the hue and saturation the values won't (necessarily) remain the same. In HSB space, saturation ≠ chroma and brightness ≠ value (lightness).
    http://www.huevaluechroma.com/081.php
    http://www.huevaluechroma.com/091.php


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    thats another problem, i also noticed it.. im not trying to make it stylized im just trying to paint a scene with a guy moving through a club but this is how it turns out.

    over the last year or so ive actually been trying to lose "style" and just try to render things as they would actually appear but this is what comes out.

    also before reading this i actually did change the right arm, i too noticed it was awkwardly shaped for where his shoulder was so instead of trying to edit it i just redid the whole arm.

    im also loosely familiar with the idea that purple will appear as the darkest value, with yellow the lightest.. then red and blue lighter than purple but the same value and then orange and green the lightest values next to yellow. i tried to keep that in mind when i did this.

    i dont even know what im saying anymore. it just seems impossible sometimes.

    im going to keep working on this thank you guys for responding and if you have anything more to add feel free to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by battlebattle View Post
    thats another problem, i also noticed it.. im not trying to make it stylized im just trying to paint a scene with a guy moving through a club but this is how it turns out.

    over the last year or so ive actually been trying to lose "style" and just try to render things as they would actually appear but this is what comes out.

    also before reading this i actually did change the right arm, i too noticed it was awkwardly shaped for where his shoulder was so instead of trying to edit it i just redid the whole arm.

    im also loosely familiar with the idea that purple will appear as the darkest value, with yellow the lightest.. then red and blue lighter than purple but the same value and then orange and green the lightest values next to yellow. i tried to keep that in mind when i did this.

    i dont even know what im saying anymore. it just seems impossible sometimes.

    im going to keep working on this thank you guys for responding and if you have anything more to add feel free to.
    Hmmm...well you have a very strong style (which is not a problem, unless you want to draw and paint in a more natural manner). Pretty tough to "make up" a scene such as this without a great deal of study and observation in this type of environment.

    The idea that "purple will appear as the darkest value"...etc. is only really true in the most generic, laboratory, color system sort of way. When you take that into reality you have to rely on observation and making the statement you want to make (which usually means making it look cool as well).

    In reality it can be possible for black to be lighter than white...it just all depends on the lighting situation.

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  13. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by battlebattle View Post
    im also loosely familiar with the idea that purple will appear as the darkest value, with yellow the lightest.. then red and blue lighter than purple but the same value and then orange and green the lightest values next to yellow. i tried to keep that in mind when i did this.
    Not as familiar as you might think, or as you need to be. Again, I refer you to David Briggs' site. While it's true that hues reach their maximum chromas at different values, highest in the yellows, lowest at the purple-blues, with reds and greens at mid-values, this isn't usually a major factor in modelling forms.


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  14. #11
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    There's nothing wrong with just giving the painting what you feel it needs as you go along either. Theory will only take you so far. At some point you just have to decide what you think works best.

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  15. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by battlebattle View Post
    purely speaking in terms of value, when you increase the level of the light or bring the light closer to the object this doesnt increase the how dark the shadows are does it?
    The key concept here is not absolute light intensity but our level of adaptation, which is controlled or strongly influenced by the strongest light source, so I'd say that increasing the apparent strength of the main illumination is just as much about dimming the secondary light source(s) as brightening the main light source.

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  16. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by battlebattle View Post
    i painted the whole scene in that really vibrant saturated blue and i started just basically working in values. once i had enough of the idea down i started selecting the lightest values and changing their hue to pink and turning up the saturation laying down the neonish pink to really give it a "club scene" vibe.

    as im trying to turn my lightest lights into the pink im finding that even though its the same value the more i warm the pink it slightly changes the value? even though the value is technically the same?
    As Elwell pointed out, you have been caught here by the confusion between so-called "value" (=relative brightness) in HSV wand true value (=greyscale value or lightness).

    I'd also stress that what you are actually doing here is not "changing" the hue of the blue light but introducing an additional, brighter, more localized, and reddish light source. There is still a blue light source somewhere, lighting up the areas that the red light does not reach. Think about how the two light sources will each create their own pattern of modelling and shadow shapes, depending on where exactly you mean them to be; what we see should be the sum of these two patterns of light.

    The red light will have most influence on light and reddish objects, and least influence on dark or cyan objects, but you already seem to have grasped this.

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