Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 14 to 26 of 27

Thread: Why paint in gray scale before color?

  1. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    5,001
    Thanks
    2,844
    Thanked 6,103 Times in 2,488 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by arenhaus View Post
    Everyone has their own method. Something that slows you down or is unnecessary for you, might be a necessary thing for him that lets him work faster.
    When you are learning how to paint you need to know what things are possible to achieve, especially for production art or concept art where speed is important.

    Painting something twice is not faster than painting something once. If you fail to learn to paint in color then by all means paint in gray scale and then add color on top but don't say its faster because it is only faster for people incapable of learning to paint in color from the start.

    Its just like tracing photos or any other work around for people with limited skill sets, its only faster for someone lacking full abilities not for someone who can actually draw and paint without workarounds. If you don't at least try and fail to achieve the highest ability possible to you, how could you ever know what you are capable of? Fear of failing produces mediocrity every time and causes people to take the easy way out before ever trying to succeed.

    A Morgan Weistling demo

    http://www.morganweistling.com/demos...demo/bd01.html
    Last edited by dpaint; June 23rd, 2012 at 10:19 AM.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote


  2. Hide this ad by registering as a member
  3. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Methuen, Ma
    Posts
    250
    Thanks
    34
    Thanked 52 Times in 27 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Its just like tracing photos or any other work around for people with limited skill sets, its only faster for someone lacking full abilities not for someone who can actually draw and paint without workarounds.
    Are you saying that it is only faster for people who use it (ingenuity) then if they did not use it?
    - Kinjark
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  4. #16
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    10
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    I don't do this, mainly because I learned through traditional media, not digital. I use digital means to color now, but I stick to what I learned in school: lineart, visualize your values, then throw the paint down piece by piece. Digital just makes the "visualize" part easier, but there's really no reason to do it. I guess it's "spheres and boxes" for coloring for some people.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  5. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    5,234
    Thanks
    3,512
    Thanked 4,906 Times in 2,547 Posts
    Completely agree with dpaint. Someone who can paint in color, with accurate values can always step it back to work in monochrome or grisaille if they want...many people do....but it isn't faster to work monochromatically and then glaze or colorize. And one isn't better than the other...but one is faster and depending on the situation and goals you would select one method over another.

    For example, an academic drawing and painting approach is counter-productive when working alla prima en plein air...just as an au premier coup approach would be if you wanted to do layers and layers of glazing.
    What would Caravaggio do?
    _________________________

    Portfolio
    Plein Air
    Digital
    Still Life
    Sight Measuring
    Fundamentals
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  6. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    19
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Cow

    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    No its not faster working from life. ....
    Wow! Never thought I provoke such a discussion
    And sure, everyone has their own method, I absolutely agree. And I agree, painting from life is not faster - it's actually slower. But for me it's easier. Even when I do a grayscale first. Painting for me is like a meditation where I can express my inner thoughts very thoroughly. I'm not going to make it fast. But I'm going to make it lovely for myself And grayscale is a part of this
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  7. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    LIC, NY
    Posts
    1,208
    Thanks
    84
    Thanked 421 Times in 403 Posts
    I agree that it's VERY time consuming, which is why I stopped that technique ages ago. What I do now is add a greyscale layer when painting, that way I can be sure my values are working.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  8. #20
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    11,445
    Thanks
    3,793
    Thanked 5,857 Times in 3,961 Posts
    Why grey? Surely any colour would be better than grey. In oils you can do a quick under painting in very thin burnt umber or ultramarine mainly to sketch it out properly before layering on the paint. Grey just deadens everything.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  9. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Methuen, Ma
    Posts
    250
    Thanks
    34
    Thanked 52 Times in 27 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Spot View Post
    Why grey? Surely any colour would be better than grey. In oils you can do a quick under painting in very thin burnt umber or ultramarine mainly to sketch it out properly before layering on the paint. Grey just deadens everything.

    Another great question.

    I can see a thin top layer painted into a wet, grey under layer as producing less chromatic colors.
    Although, I see painting any relatively light color over any darker color having an even larger decrease in chroma.
    This is regardless if it is wet or dry and is due to turbidity.
    This effect can be mitigated with opacity of the top layer or only painting dark over light.

    What does grey have that other colors don't?
    Achromatic neutrals have the largest value range because they lack hue and chroma. If they are present then the range of value is smaller. This large range can be useful for certain effects in oil painting.

    Ok, what effects makes grey a good choice?
    Really it's up to the final effect you are after. But let's have an example.
    Let's say we want to do a painting with multiple layers.
    If the top layer is lighter than the bottom layer it will likely shift the final layer closer to neutral regardless of hue or chroma.
    If a bottom layer is lighter (especially lighter) the chroma will rise. Painting a darker color on a white ground yields a higher chroma.
    Keep in mind that there will always be some kind of hue shit.
    If accurate hue is critical, one needs to calculate the shift and alter the painting in two ways:
    1. alter white layer somehow before the top layer to shift to hue to what is desired
    2. paint a slightly shifted top color to get the right final color.

    So white is a good choice because it is especially light, and won't shift the hue too much or is predictable.

    Painting an under painting in just anything but near neutrals may shift the final layer in an undesired direction and may also be too dark to be useful. That is high value+ high chroma is the desired effect we are after here.

    Why not just paint it alla prima and be done with it?

    This is a simplification.
    Opaque colors depend on pigment color for chroma while properly glazed colors have this too but with the added benefit of structural color. This places multiple organized interfaces on top of one another. Each layer blocks some portion of the same passage of wavelengths that would ultimately lower the chroma . It basically ups the gamut a bit where opaque colors are slightly left behind in. Structural colors are why flowers, birds and butterfly have incredibly high chroma that opaque pigment colors cannot match. This is also why dry pigments are less chromatic than pigments in medium. Pigment in medium have a lower ability to scatter light because the interfaces between particles are less isotropic (less matte). So pigment plus structure gives maximum chroma.

    Who the hell cares if you get and umph in chroma by glazing?
    Well, to each, her own.

    Example Please?

    Why paint in gray scale before color?

    Above is an old process of under painting that is designed to maximize chroma at particular hues without compromising to much value.
    The artist is Adrian Gottlieb.

    1. dry brush: Drawing on ground of similar colors. The pigment was chosen because it drys fast. The color was chosen for the ground because it is close to the shadow color in the final layer.

    2. lead white: Scumble to model form in higher key then final layer. pigment was chosen because it is semi transparent, drys fast and especially light.

    3. hue/chroma mapping: painting opaque to distinguish local color shifts of flesh tone while keeping everything very light. background is painted in for desired effects to start to take place. Pigments are chosen for personal preference. Really, you could do this with many different paints and get the same effect. The pigments are sinopia and chromium oxide green from blue ridge.

    4. Final glazing. all very chromatic colors are crucial and pigment should be chosen carefully to accommodate the appropriate effect. This is because the hue/chroma shifts depend on pigments not necessarily on hue. Think structural color and not pigment color.
    Last edited by kinjark; June 26th, 2012 at 11:01 PM.
    - Kinjark
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to kinjark For This Useful Post:


  11. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    2,337
    Thanks
    1,074
    Thanked 2,200 Times in 1,055 Posts
    Since I'm pretty sure the OP was talking about digital painting, I figure I should point out that glazing with traditional media is an entirely different beast from adding color layers over greyscale in digital media.

    In traditional media, of course you get different effects from glazing than from more direct painting due to the way the different approaches affect light hitting the paint layers. So which approach you use depends on what results you want (and whether you have the time and patience for glazing.)

    With digital media, there's really no significant difference in the final result whether you start with grayscale or color. The end result is pixels on a screen/ink printed on paper regardless. So the only reason to use one approach over another is personal preference in workflow and technique. Whatever works for you, whatever gets the job done, it doesn't matter.

    On another note, you can glaze over multi-colored underpaintings if you want, and if you know what you're doing... Maxfield Parrish being a prime example of that. (I think some old masters started with a burnt umber underpainting rather than grey... Or various brown tones on a reddish ground... If I remember correctly, I could be wrong...)

    Quote Originally Posted by kinjark View Post
    Keep in mind that there will always be some kind of hue shit.
    Also, this typo amuses the hell out of me. (I am easily amused.)
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to QueenGwenevere For This Useful Post:


  13. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,242
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,240 Times in 800 Posts
    I personally find working monochromatically first faster because it tends to save me time that I would have otherwise spent fixing values later on, and I find it easier to control color shifts when applying it all at once and not worrying about the values underneath. But I imagine that is simply due to my own limitations, that I'm not able to produce the image I want by working in color directly. Since I don't mind the process, I continue to use it happily.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  14. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Methuen, Ma
    Posts
    250
    Thanks
    34
    Thanked 52 Times in 27 Posts
    QueenGwenevere
    Good points.
    I did not say you could not glaze over other colors, I gave an example as to why it would be preferred for a neutral. Though Glazing over anything too dark will be useless if you desire the final layer to be light and chromatic irrespective of hue shifts.
    I was responding only in this instance to oils at Black Spot's question. As you said, the OP was clear about grey-scale and it's application to Photoshop.

    BTW - that typo made me tear up it was so funny.
    - Kinjark
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  15. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    19
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
    wow, kinjark! Thanks a lot for your post and an example! You gave me a great bunch of ideas for the future This can extend my grayscale technique
    I'm thinking about adding chroma to the first underlying grayscale level. This can give even a better color contrast.....
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  16. #26
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    11,445
    Thanks
    3,793
    Thanked 5,857 Times in 3,961 Posts
    kinjark - I sort of do they same thing digitally; working from brown and adding transparent colours on top and sort of mixing them that way. Okay I'm not a pro, but it just feels better for me staying away from grey.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Art: Paint and Color
    By Dean Johnson Art in forum FINE ART
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: September 27th, 2011, 08:03 PM
  2. Digital scale vs Print scale
    By DyslexicDan in forum PHOTOSHOP
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: July 8th, 2010, 10:01 AM
  3. Replies: 9
    Last Post: May 10th, 2009, 09:21 AM
  4. Art: Gray scale color study
    By Jamancha in forum FINE ART
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: February 8th, 2005, 02:52 AM
  5. What is the best way paint a grey scale image in PS?
    By Evil_Sloth in forum ART TUTORIALS, ART TIPS & ART TRICKS - ARCHIVE
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: December 17th, 2004, 03:43 PM

Members who have read this thread: 7

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
  • 424,149 Artists
  • 3,599,276 Artist Posts
  • 32,941 Sketchbooks
  • 54 New Art Jobs
Art Workshop Discount Inside

Developed Actively by vBSocial.com
SpringOfSea's Sketchbook