I haven't seen this movie, but here's what Maddox had to say:
I haven't seen this movie, but here's what Maddox had to say:
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this is quite abit like prometheus, but a lot better i think
combine prometheus level puppet effects, with this kind of talented cast, youve got the next Jaws.
I just came back from Prometheus.
What I liked was the atmosphere of the planet and inside of the ship. There was also much more of Giger design than in the Aliens movies and some interesting new creatures.
The main things that didn't make entirely sense to me after more thought.
I felt something was missing or wrong with the crew. Most of the people didn't really act like scientists. Not very attentive, patient, thoughtful, responsible. They were all just walking around with no initiative while David did all the work.
What David really wanted to achieve by testing the black substance on Holloway? Why would he want to harm the crew. It could maybe happen if there was some conflict of interest but I didn't see any. He had the same goals as humans which is to explore the planet.
Also why Holloway was disappointed that they didn't meet alive Engineers while they explored only one place on the planet?
The rest to me was minor things really.
Farvus; Agreed on the atmosphere and design, absolutely loved that.
I'll attempt to explain some of the problems.
As for David and the goo;
Once on the planet, we see that David immediately starts opening doors and pushing buttons to bring the search for Engineers up to speed. I thought that was strange at first. But remember the entire project was put on the rails to fulfil Weylands wish and the crew was tailored towards that end. David too was instructed/programmed to further those goals. Also, Weyland was dying and running out of time.
Vickers was sceptical and thought the expedition to be a waste of time and money. She walks up to David, threatens him, and tells him to "work faster" (if my memory is correct), which is clearly foreshadowing coming events.
David then tests the black goo on Holloway. Several explanations possible. He simply had to get some results quick, considering Weylands state and Vickers orders. Also note that he has a childish naivité over him (thought Fassbender was amazing), plus he probably doesn't value biological life the way we do. Not sure about this but I think he even expresses disappointment in his own creators. Finally, knowing that the engineers have created/spread life and that Shaw is barren, he chooses Holloway....
Getting way too carried away already. Though I agree that Prometheus has its inconsistencies I don't think it's nearly as bad as many people make it to be. I believe most things can be explained from the clues Ridley Scott has given us, though these are quite limited at times. As if they had to cut an hour of screentime on the last day of production.....
Some thoughts on what you mentioned:
"the crew was tailored towards that end."
What about the cynical, incompetent, geologist/surveyor guy, or the equally idiotic exobiologist? Surely in an organisation as vast as WY they could find some really hot shit people, or androidsto crew the expedition, not some half-assed losers...?
"Weyland was dying and running out of time. "
He's in stasis. As i understand it this preserves the person inside if not indefinitely then for a very long time, long enough to traverse stellar distances and subsequent in-system flight.
"Vickers was sceptical and thought the expedition to be a waste of time and money."
Why did she go then? Surely as a super-rich ultra-powerful exec who wanted to sieze power from the old man, staying home on Earth would be the perfect move; there was a good chance of him not coming back, and worst case hed be gone for 5 years, leaving the way open for her to mount her powerplay. See above re. WY having at least one exec who believed the project held some merit.
"David then tests the black goo on Holloway."
He didnt test it, he poisoned the guy. Testing it would involve analysing its effects on lab creatures at different doses, exactly like how all new drugs are tested. What was the point of Davids test? Was it a success?
OK i understand he's under the kosh of Weyland, but I cant imagine Weyland would approve of a method of testing that unleashes an unknown poison on his ship while simultaneously killing his own chief science officer. Its barmy.
"Finally, knowing that the engineers have created/spread life and that Shaw is barren, he chooses Holloway...."
Holloway being fertile made him turn into a zombie?
Why was Shaw barren, youd think by 2080whenever they could solve shit like that in no time (grow the baby using his and her DNA in a surrogate or an external womb tank?)
"Not sure about this but I think he even expresses disappointment in his own creators"
That, although clunkily done, was a key element, i agree. I like the Lovecraftian idea that the gods all suck, but Lovecraft did it much better.
I agree with him one one level though, in that my main emotion was disappointment with the movie's creators.
Some good points there. Note that I did not mention my own criticism on the film - I too was disappointed at times. Let me try to address some of the points the way you structured them.
So let me start by clarifying that I did not agree with how some of the other crew were handled. I too expected more from the geologist and the biologist; they were useless. Reaching out for an alien life-form like that is not particularly clever (plus clichéd). I don't think cynicism is a strange trait for a scientist though , and scientists can be overenthusiastic too. Still, some of the crew were basically cannon fodder (or xenomorph-fodder), which was a big let-down to me.
I may have forgotten but I don't think stasis got a lot of attention. Most of the crew were not doing so well after stasis, so I think it's safe to assume stasis places a considerable strain on the body.
Vickers' reason for being on the expedition
Weyland at some point mentioned he wanted a son, and how David is a substitute. Also, he did not expect Vickers to join in. She's ambitious, plus wants to prove herself.
David testing on Holloway
I don't approve of his methods either but I understand the decision, considering David's background and train of thought.
'zombie' Holloway and Shaw's infertility
Holloway's body deteriorated after ingesting the stuff David gave him. Or did you mean the geologist when you mentioned "zombie"? Though I'm not sure, what happened to Holloway seems similar to what happened to the Engineer that sacrificed himself at the start of the film.
Shaw was simply barren. I don't know the specifics either but I'm sure many things can cause it. Apparently not easy to fix within the Prometheus universe.
Disappointment in creators
Yea I would love to have more focus on this subject because it has a lot of potential. Unfortunately, I haven't read any Lovecraft yet. Nor do I know many people who did. Would you recommend it though?
Last edited by Anthis; July 25th, 2012 at 02:59 PM. Reason: Fixed typo
Good points! Youre right about stasis looking unpleasant, its a standard scene isnt it where the crew emerge from hypersleep and puke everywhere.
I have to think though that a civilisation that can make David can make much anything, up to and including perfect medicine and replacement bodies.
Re. science team, im not even sure why Holloway and Noomi Rapace are even there. Its like sending anthpologists to run an International Spacestation Mission.
Ok sure all astronauts have doctorates, in things like geology, physics, maths, etc, but theyre also supremely fit and well trained. These guys seem like complete amateurs off the street, not the hardened team of superfit MIT grads and ex-fighter test pilots one might expect.
I think what they shouldve done is similar to Alien, with a crew of prim scientists, a team of serious astronauts (not the crew guys in the movie who were more like merchant navy guys) and a team of tough rough necks and a special forces team, then they couldve all rubbed along and got in arguements and maybe become friends that we care about, before they get killed.
i didnt care about any of these clowns.
As to Lovecraft, i cant recommend it enough.
Hes not the greatest writer by any means, but his themes, of ancient alien gods that are at best uncaring of us and at worst actively want to revel in our destruction, is as compelling as ever.
It links thematically in my mind with Stanislaw Lem's Solaris, which also deals with science discovering something it cant, and possibly shouldnt understand.
Yea, good discussion.
Now that you mention it, science teams in the Alien films were much more capable and believable. Been a while since I've seen those ;S. It would also be in Weyland's best interest to get a strong team on board.
From a storytelling perspective, the strong crews in those films also made the threat much more clear.
Overall, I thought the premise and experience (design, visuals, atmosphere, I loved watching this in 3d) were fantastic. But isn't it strange how most of the problems we discussed are at a very basic level? How were these not sifted out?
Lovecraft is something I still have to try out. Just one of those things in that long list of stuff yet to be read/watched. Guess I'll move him up a few spots, haha. I actually have Andrei Tarkovsky's Solyaris waiting to be watched as well....
"Actually the whole discussion on the crew reminded me of Stanislaw Lem's "Eden". Farvus
Ive not read that one. I will.
I think its way more scary when the people are at least competent.
In Alien, they did everything that could be expected of some random people who work together and they still got fucked. It was so awesome.
Yeah I have to say the monster looked amazing. Although I totally didnt like the Engineer guys really, it all felt like a crap version of Protector. Which would make a sick movie done right btw. Id love to see it filmed more like a detective show and action, David Mamet or someone writing it, lots of face shots and intense plot shit to go with the bananas visuals.
"But isn't it strange how most of the problems we discussed are at a very basic level? How were these not sifted out?"
No idea, youd think given the money theyre spending theyd spend an afternoon going over it to see if it makes any sense.
Last edited by Velocity Kendall; July 26th, 2012 at 07:38 AM.