Cheetabot-running robot animal
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    Cheetabot-running robot animal

    Latest WIP. A few hours in it, mostly developing cheetah based concepts and sketching roughs. Which I unfortunately somehow lost by sketching over the same layer again and again

    What style of sci-fi do you see in this? Thoughts on were to take it?

    Guess I will throw in the first study of the animal I did earlier today, feel free to comment on that as well.

    Edit: Latest at bottom of this post.

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    Last edited by KenHatch; May 23rd, 2012 at 01:43 AM. Reason: finalized
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    running machines, i love this theme!!

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    Thanks VK, here is one more before I go to sleep.

    Its a Cheetah... but for some reason he keeps ending up looking like a polar bear (face) the more I redo him. I think the more I think about polar bears the more I sketch it, have to visualize that Cheetah, become the Cheetah... I should eat some Cheetos!

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    New version of the Cheetabot, please critique this and don't go easy on me. I feel like there is something 'wrong' and am having a hard time seeing just what it is. Perspective? maybe the shading? It doesn't feel 'fast' to me anymore.

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    I think you need to study cheetahs more closely. Look how their legs fold when running, how they tilt the body to take the turns. Also, the perspective in your picture is a bit weird, and the dirt spraying up behind the robot looks like it's running in a straight line, yet it's tilting without any signs of turning.



    Here's an amazing sequence from DA, see how and when the legs touch the ground. They never have the legs positioned like in your drawing, they could never acquire such speed with a walking gait like the one you portrayed:
    EDIT: It stretches a lot, follow the link instead.
    http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs28/f/20..._Gio_Toldo.jpg

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    Actually I think you would very much benefit from understanding the skeletal structure of a cheetah. You can look at the outside and how it moves, but that's still not really telling you everything.





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    Thanks, very good points. I will take another look at some reference material. I think I did imagine this robot in a turn and start to sketch it that way, then somehow lost track of that trying to make the limbs look robotic.

    What I am trying for here is a mechanical construct that looks as if it can actually be built, and can run, aside from power/weight ratio. I added the extra pivot in the front lower leg to give it the proper range of motion without the shoulder blades moving. I am trying to sketch something that to me is somewhat believable in its construction, not just sketching a chrome Cheetah. But that said, it may not work out like I wanted. I might have to go with some sort of shoulder that can rise up and down and make it more animal like in its actual construction.

    I wanted it to look like it has central motor function and a drive train linking the limbs, not muscles powering everything. But its elusive...

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    Wow, that sounds ambitious! How about first doing a robot that's very cheetah-like and then another one that's more modified? I mean, nature's come up with such an amazing construction, there's a lot to be learned from it. I suggest that you have a look at why they can run at such incredible speeds, there's a lot of science behind it. The vertebrae are essential, the back must be flexible, for example.

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    First of all thank you for the great reference material and insight! Yep your all correct, I need to sketch the subject more.

    I watched a BBC doc on big cats online to get some ideas. The Cheetah is not unique we all use a flexible spine, they just do the speed thing better then most. Muscle tissue type has some part in it as does the skeleton arrangement and the connective tissue structure and elasticity.

    Its not that ambitious, I am in school for industrial design so its expected. Cool looking and so unrealistic even a toy model of the subject would be difficult is very common. Functional and stylish with thought to manufacturing process, dis-assembly, etc is less common.

    One concept has an off center disk of a polyurethane like material as a shock absorber in the shoulder, another has a sliding shoulder assembly, and the one I posted has no moving shoulder, it uses a 4th leg joint to tuck the leg up under the shoulder pivot then extended it forward rather then roll the shoulders. This is partly because in my line of thinking the leg will be easier to replace if damaged then the leg and shoulder. Maintenance of modern military vehicles is usually a swap out of the part, which is modular to the larger machine it is part of, rather then a dis-assembly and repair job.

    Like on the turret ring of a tank, wide radius rings absorb impacts better then most other types of hinges and rotating mechanisms. It also leaves space for the drive train to run through the center. So each joint should have this type of connection.

    That being said, I agree I need to sketch some more cheetahs and bring that experience into this, maybe look at a different animals foreleg as well to get some ideas that avoid a rolling shoulder blade and dynamic upper body that does much of the movement in real biological systems.

    Edit:posting page of doodles, I certainly do need to sketch the movement more.

    Edit 2: copied VK's first ortho and tried to fill in 3 stages from the back feet taking off to the front landing. Looked at many pictures but I may need to look at frames from a video to get this right. complex little movement that changes as he gate lengthens from trotting to running to flat out, where the creature is not impacting downward much and seems to glide. My version feels more like a jump then part of a running movement... more sketching.

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    Last edited by KenHatch; May 22nd, 2012 at 04:14 PM.
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    New version of Cheetabot running. Tried to give it that turning feel and skewed the perspective a bit.

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    Good idea, but I agree with the others that you should do more gesture studies. You have commited yourself for a given design and for a given pose without exploring potential designs and potential poses. Do at least a dozen new designs and a 100 gesture studies!

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    Pixal Cheetah? I have to do exactly as you say on this one or karma will be annoyed with me.

    Thank you all again for the advice, I am very glad to have some critical eyes available during summer break. Parents and friends just say 'wow thats neat 'to everything'

    I will do those dozen new designs and 100 character poses over the next few days. I wanted to get this mess out of the way first though with a minor fix and scene addition and call it done.

    This is the latest for now of 'Cheetabot 1'. Changed the legs slightly and tried to fix some of the shading mistakes. I am going to start on those roughs now...

    Edit: adding a cheetah collage hope its helpful to others sketching animals running

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    Last edited by KenHatch; May 23rd, 2012 at 01:54 AM.
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    I think the one fatal flaw in your design is the rigid back. Cheetah spines are particularly flexible to allow them to push off on the ground with full force and make large strides. I mean just look at that cheetah reference you just uploaded; it's not even running at full speed and already the back is arching and stretching quite a lot. You'll need to figure out a way to allow your cheetah's back to move or it will always seem incredibly stiff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lhune View Post
    I think the one fatal flaw in your design is the rigid back. Cheetah spines are particularly flexible to allow them to push off on the ground with full force and make large strides. I mean just look at that cheetah reference you just uploaded; it's not even running at full speed and already the back is arching and stretching quite a lot. You'll need to figure out a way to allow your cheetah's back to move or it will always seem incredibly stiff.
    This is what I meant with the flexible spine xD Lhune explained it a lot better.

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    Hmmmm... umm, hmmmm. Ok. I don't think its a fatal flaw, I mean no one is dieing here. But I get what you are saying. To add to that line of reasoning, the cheetah changes its gate like most 4 legged animals, as it increases its stride. Its almost like the front end jumps and the back end jumps and they are linked by the flexible spine, but very independent of each other, the Cheetah is moving in that 3/4 view sequence. Its doing a gallop like a horse but looser, front legs deal with the inertia and weight of the front end, back legs deal with the weight and inertia of the rear. Spine really bends and twists around as it does that low speed (for it) gallop. Flat out running is another story though, the body moves up and down far less and the animal glides more. most of its inertia is moving forward and it is timing its footfalls to keep everything moving forward rather then up and down. Its sort of like how a boat gets up on a plain and suddenly is using far less power having broken the surface tension and begun skipping along the surface.

    I have been around animals plenty to understand their are issues, don't be shy pointing things out and don't feel I will be unreceptive. But there is no need to be fatalistically negative ether. Its just a concept and concepts change easily. I lived on a farm as a child, chickens and goats, family bred horses and competed in English Equestrian, have dealt with 4am birthing of livestock, and attended many dressage and showjumping competitions, enough to know the intricacies of the gate of a 4 legged creature. walk, trot, canter, gallop, on the bit, off the bit, dressage is all about the gate of the animal.

    I agree my concept on the cheetah could use more work and the movement figured out more. Would be nice to know the distance of the stride to place footfall details accurately. All this will come with more practice and more roughs. I am not sure, for design issues that include creating realistic looking exploded views of mechanism, that I want this scout robot creature to have that flexible back. One consideration I have is I want an armed version with a recoil-less rifle mounted on the back, it needs a stable platform and some sort of ammo loading system, all are going on the back and a flexible spine is going to mess with this idea, as well as an infantry-man rider, and a modular equipment harness. I had imagined the rigid back would allow the legs to become the recoil absorbers and the whole body the gun platform. I will scan these in asap and hopeful images will make more sense.

    Nothing is fatal though, isn't that a bit over-dramatic? Is it really that bad an image? honestly I think its rather good, with some issues, shoulder area perspective bugs me way more then the creatures gate right now.

    Thanks for the input though, I will think about that connection and flexibility in the next concept much more then this one because it is important to the viewers!

    Last edited by KenHatch; May 23rd, 2012 at 05:26 PM.
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    I didn't say the picture was bad. I said it was a fatal design flaw, in that it's killing the design as far as movement goes. Horses move very differently from cheetahs and have a very different body structure (which is why we can ride them so well). Felines in general are more flexible than most quadrupedal animals. In a flat-out sprint, it may seem like the cheetah is moving forward whilst keeping it's body relatively horizontal but the spine is still moving a lot, as you can see in this slow-motion video; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCUyo2rwq-c .

    It really just depends on how much you want the design to work. If you're going for functional design, you're going to have to do something about the rigid back. If you're just going for an awesome illustration, you could get away with making it look like it could work. Don't take my critique personally, I'm not attacking you or your work, I'm trying to help.

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    Mmmm, yes I am a bit defensive on this I guess :p . I just have a different purpose for this in mind then you I suppose. I am basing it off of current cutting edge quadrupedal robotics like the Big-Dog robot undergoing military trials now. I want it to have certain functionality and uses that a flexible back, and a design dedicated to pure movement versus load carrying and modularity, just don't accommodate. I really don't want to just sketch chrome animals and unrealistic robots, my training is in industrial design and I like it that way. My concepts, at least to my thinking, are manufacture-able with present and near future technologies. They have the physical requirements for prototyping, in that space for power and drive train, transmissions, etc is there. Hinges and joints look industrial and realistic. No crazy tiny ball and socket hinges somehow acting like muscles etc. and no drawing the animals actual limps and joints and then chroming it. I don't knock others for this, but its not my style.

    As I am sketching this, I am imagining machining the prototype as a hanging leg assembly over a tread mill, trying to figure out how I would make a voltage controller to adjust the gate to figure out the ratio of change in extension at a given speed, and how this might be coded to create autonomous movement. I feel it can be fairly analog, the leg movement could be 'instinctive' if the mechanism is designed cleverly, like the analog autonomous robots designed to seek power, light, etc using resistors and capacitors only, with no memory or digital circuitry.

    So thanks, but when it comes to functional I am I believe way ahead of you. Hope you don't take that the wrong way, but you express a definitive opinion of what is functional and what is not, and I believe you are mistaken. Expectations are not always the real constraints to a design or system, just what we think they might be. The only way to know is to make a physical prototype, which I have real professional training and experience in.

    I get that it doesn't look enough like a Cheetah for some, I am starting to realize that this is not an error at all, just a difference of opinion and understanding of what it takes to make something work in the real world. I appreciate the input though and sorry if I sound defensive. I guess the only thing to do is do two versions, one that meets my expectations for the design and one that meets the views expectations as well.

    Edit: I just realized my design does have a flexible aspect that is obviously from the feedback not coming through at all. So I will try to fix it. The rear end is like a quad ATV or offroad vehicle. Its a swing arm under what in the image is sort of like the rear of a motorcycle seat. the cylinder the hind legs are mounted to. how can I express that that part moves up and down and forward and backward? I imagined this would take the place of the Cheetah's back when I first conceptualized this design. The rearward movement would be in conjunction with the legs, adding thrust to their motion at higher speeds.

    Edit: Just wanted to thank you again Lhune, I do appreciate the input. Viewer expectations are why I am here and what I asked for. Sorry I got defensive.

    This is the current record holder for 4 legged robots, called the Cheetah of course, looks creepy and awkward at low speed, but it has some grace at higher speeds and in the slow motion I can see the back movement is designed into this to make it functional.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2D71CveQwo

    Last edited by KenHatch; May 23rd, 2012 at 07:14 PM.
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    ggggggg.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; May 24th, 2012 at 07:18 AM.
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    "So thanks, but when it comes to functional I am I believe way ahead of you. "

    frankly I disagree. You talk a good job but check out Lhunes work, shes focussed specfically on deconstructing quadraped locomotion in much greater depth than your recent investigation.

    While I respect you tryingto make it technically accurate, youre ignoring the information in front of you. The DARPA model is all cable muscles and pheumatic acctuators. Nowhere does it have a cartoon cheetah face on the front. My point is while you say youre after technical accuracy, your designs are not technically realistic at all. The limbs are styled boxes with circular hinges at each end where the join other similar boxes. Looks pretty generic robot to me.
    The neck and back seem to be clad in some kind of flexible metal skin plates, but theres no clear way for them to articulate. It looks more like a random texture. How would the body flex and pivot? The Big Dog is clearly a rigit structure, and its wierd goat legs suit its stiff posture. a cheetah needs to be able to use its whole body for locomotion and throwing its weight into corners.

    What does your cheetahbot do? Are you actually expecting it to be a ride-on vehicle? or just a scout gunship? Making this clearer in your own mind would make designing it a lot easier. I very much doubt anyone would build a ride-on cheetah bot with current tech. It would be a scout packed with sensors and a hefty PC with an uzi on the back.

    As for making it technically accurate, I respect your desire to make it seem buildable, but your tech is stuck in the 1980s. Its all cogs and cams annd ring hinges.
    Why not think about how machines might have muscle? And not just cables attached to cams, i mean actual electronic muscle.
    Aaron beck has done some extremely serious looking combat mechs you would do well to study. They look both way more hightech and way more believable.

    I have no doubt these guys could punch through a house. the big guy looks like he could lumber along at 50mph for hours, and the smaller one looks like it would be as graceful as an acrobat and rip the arms off a Terminator.
    the green one looks like a biologically sophisticated machine.









    The perspective drawing you keep making minor changes to is not working.
    The pose is wooden and static, the limbs frozen flailing in imporbable directions. I suggest making a 3d model or a physical wire model using the stop motion information to pose the limsb, and then image it from different angles.
    That will allow you seperate the pose being correct from the image angle beign cool, which will make things a lot easier.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; May 24th, 2012 at 10:03 AM.
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    @Lhune, If you can't find something nice to say, some complement of some sort, don't post in my threads. Your negativity brings me down.

    @VK, hate those, zombie mech mashups with bits of modern rifles pasted in.

    @Eaglegrove, thanks for just reasonably suggesting play around with the idea, and doing more then one version. I appreciate your short positively stated moderate opinions of what was presented and how it can be improved. Not looking to show off, just trying to be helpful. Thank you sir.

    Done here. If people can't treat this as fun, and playful, and be friendly, I shall seek a different outlet.

    Last edited by KenHatch; May 24th, 2012 at 04:31 PM.
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    Ouch.

    I figured that since you're a working professional you could tell plain rudeness from genuine critique. Guess not. I didn't spend some time of my day to look at your work and attempt to help you just to be made out to be some kind of terrible person. I don't have time to sugar-coat all of my posts and I most certainly don't have time to argue about how I wasn't being rude. I wish you good luck with your design and hope someone else can find the patience to help you out.

    Edit: Oh you're leaving already? Goodness me you're thin-skinned.

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  33. #23
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    "@VK, hate those, zombie mech mashups with bits of modern rifles pasted in."

    Zombies? Eh? This guy works at Weta and did SFX for Avatar. maybe you cant see it, but trust me his stuff is dope.
    The spidersilk muscle armour stretched over a robotic nanocarbon frame makes a lot of sense.

    "@Lhune, If you can't find something nice to say, some complement of some sort, don't post in my threads. Your negativity brings me down."

    Uh oh. Big big misunderstanding of the Critique Forum. Reading that, I dont think you are a serious professional. With all due respect, you sound like someone who is going to find this business very tough. If you cant take this kind of crit youre going to find working for art directors impossible.
    Trust me, theyll just say "that sucks, do it again."

    "Done here. If people can't treat this as fun, and playful, and be friendly, I shall seek a different outlet."

    Most people can. Bye.

    Heres some quite cool retrofuturistic greyhounds sent over to me by Rishenko



    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; May 25th, 2012 at 09:47 AM.
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    (Still trying to help you here.)

    Ouch, it seems that you're too proud here. It's good that you see that you're defensive, but that's not all. You're way. Too. Proud. Lhune is an expert on animal anatomy, and she stated the facts, trying to help you, just like VK. It seems that you have gotten too many positive, non-critical comments from your friends and family. That you have grown up around animals doesn't make you an expert on animal anatomy in a way that makes you capable of using it in machinery. If it did, any farmer would be able to make a cheetahbot.What could make you different from them would be academical knowledge about bones, muscles, nervous system, blood, lungs, heart, and all that, combined with your practical knowledge. It's great that you have experience with animals, it's more than I have, but it's still just a starting point. You need to see the differences as well as the similarities between horses and cheetahs. I have spent more time on the other part, the academical part, which makes it easier for me to see what makes this seem like it couldn't work, and Lhune is even better in that field since she's invested even more time in getting to know animals and their anatomy. I don't know how much you really know about machines, but it seems like the lack of knowledge about cheetahs and mammals in general prevents you from unfolding your mechanical and artistic creativity.

    TL;DR: Lose your pride, get some academical knowledge on mammals and cheetahs, combine that with your practical animal knowledge and with your mechanical knowledge and your cheetahbot will improve. A lot. I promise.

    Last edited by EagleGrove; May 26th, 2012 at 04:58 AM.
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    Lol you guys are giving me way more credit than I deserve, but thanks .

    Also VK, I saw that video only recently, it's pretty damn awesome! Those guys must have some money to spare if they can make a vid like that (or good connections).

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    His loss, move on! There are plenty of other people in the C&C section that could use a little loving…

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