How many bargues did you draw and how long it took

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  1. #1
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    How many bargues did you draw and how long it took

    Hi everyone,

    For those of you who drew or still draws bargues, I wanted to know how many bargues did you draw before you started feeling that you aren't getting much out of the practice relative to the time spent? Also how many bargues have you drawn so far?

    Also I know that it can take hundreds of hours to get one bargue right, but with practice, one should get some kind of efficiency boost. So I was wondering if anyone remembered how long it took them to draw their first bargue and what was the average/best time per bargue once you got the hang of it?

    Your answers will help me gauge my progress as well as show me what I need to shoot for, so even approximate numbers will help tremendously. Thanks.

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  3. #2
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    I have a better question: how many top pro artists that you admire have drawn a Bargue?

    What would Caravaggio do?
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  5. #3
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    JeffX99: Can't think of anyone who went through modern atelier training without drawing a bargue. So I guess more artists than I can list. Which brings us back to my original question

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    As far as I am aware, most programs only have students do a small number of Bargues, but spend a long time on each. I'm sure the numbers vary a fair bit, but a lot of places you probably only do maybe 2 or 3.

    That being said, it is important I think to remember that Bargue plates were originally copied without sight size and were not meant to take hundreds of hours each--it was possible that a student would copy many or all of the plates, which simply isn't possible anymore using the methods people use to copy them now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbridge View Post
    JeffX99: Can't think of anyone who went through modern atelier training without drawing a bargue. So I guess more artists than I can list. Which brings us back to my original question
    This is true for academic, atelier training. I guess I should say it depends on your goals? I doubt any in my top 50-100 artists ever drew one. If your goal is to go the academic, atelier training route more power to you.

    Edit: Not trying to give you a hard time btw...I just think it is a question worth really considering. If the artists that you admire and inspire you have spent a great deal of time and effort on Bargue drawings then by all means, follow that lead. Just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons, and not just because you've heard people say you should do Bargue drawings.

    Last edited by JeffX99; April 27th, 2012 at 02:12 AM.
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  10. #6
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    I copied four Bargues at Angel Academy of Art. All together took me about one trimester, that's 3 months.

    Right now they've decreased the number to 3 Bargues to make sure that really every student can complete them before the trimester is over.

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maidith View Post
    I copied four Bargues at Angel Academy of Art. All together took me about one trimester, that's 3 months.

    Right now they've decreased the number to 3 Bargues to make sure that really every student can complete them before the trimester is over.
    But. . .

    Was it useful?

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    I've done 4, spending over a month on each, and it's been extremely useful to me. I was literally a clueless beginner (well I still am, but somewhat less clueless) when I first started working on them. Everything in my sketchbook before the value studies have been the only stuff I had ever drawn up until my bargues, bar a terrible selfportrait I did before I started working on them.

    It taught me how to take my time and observe and it taught me how far you can take something, even if you really have no idea what you're doing, with patience alone. Part of the reason I learned so much was probably because of how little I had drawn before them, but I don't regret doing them and I'd recommend it to anyone interested in academic drawing! Van Gogh did all of them multiple times I think.

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    Umm.. so someone I know who totally isn't me is kind of curious as to what a "bargue" is?

    Not me though.

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    How many top concept artists copy Bargues? None of the good ones. As Jeff said, great if you want to be an academic painter, pretty useless for anything requiring speed and imagination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sanya View Post
    Umm.. so someone I know who totally isn't me is kind of curious as to what a "bargue" is?

    Not me though.
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45404

    The answer is it doesn't matter. I don't care if one thinks a "top concept artist" has or has not done a Bargue. If you find it useful go ahead.

    I do not care if Emily is a top concept artist in the eyes of some people. Not everyone is going to be a "top concept artist" and a top concept artist may have done a Bargue drawing.

    It may help you if you want to be an artist, and you may be a good artist in other areas. If you find it useful, go ahead, if not - you don't have to do it.

    everyone learns differently and one doesn't have to knock it if it isn't for them.

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    Bargue drawings are just master copies. I don't understand this hostility towards them. People have been doing master studies since the Renaissance.

    The Bargue plates are used because they are specifically suited for copying from. They have simplified light and shadow and some include intermediate block-in stages that show you how to simplify. They also nicely link to cast drawing. The sighting and measuring techniques can be applied to any master study. There have been drawing courses before Bargue's, that similarly consisted out of plates to be copied.

    I think I did around 5 copies, but that includes the simple ones like the features. At first I was very slow. You can spend as long on them as you like. It's up to you to decide when the drawing is "done".
    I knew someone that did over 50 Bargue drawings. He was only able to do so many because he didn't strive for complete accuracy, and I think neither did Van Gogh. The way they are being copied nowadays is taking it further than what they were likely intended for (too far perhaps). Although it's a good exercise to push yourself to the extent of your abilities. And I think you get more out of doing a few accurate copies, than 50 more or less inaccurate ones. Quality over quantity.

    They don't have to be done 1:1, although it is the easiest to start with. I recommend doing a few using comparative measuring; blowing them up or scaling them down. You'll learn more that way. I believe the original Bargue book consisted of just the plates, with no instructions. Students at the Grand Central Academy use the drawings only for practicing their block-ins, which is what I've been doing as well.

    Last edited by Norkagar; April 27th, 2012 at 09:45 AM.
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  23. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    how many top pro artists that you admire have drawn a Bargue?

    Dozens. Including at least 3 or 4 at the top of each page on this sites banner display.

    Last edited by Craig D; April 27th, 2012 at 11:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yochanan View Post
    Van Gogh did all of them multiple times I think.
    I read somewhere that he copied them all twice, but the few copies that I have seen are fairly sketchily done, which was typical of Van Gogh's style (you can accuse Vincent of many things, but patience isn't one of them):



    Quote Originally Posted by sanya View Post
    Umm.. so someone I know who totally isn't me is kind of curious as to what a "bargue" is?
    Here's the Bargue of Dante:



    Sorry, obscure pun, couldn't resist... :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickydraws View Post
    Bargue drawings are just master copies. I don't understand this hostility towards them.
    The hostility comes from the almost fetishistic place they assumed in atelier training, especially the Minnesota-tradition ateliers in the '80s and '90s. One of the great things that's happened in the past ten/fifteen years or so is the increased dialog and cross-pollination between different teaching traditions, and the lessening of rigid dogmatism.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig D View Post
    Dozens. Including at least 3 or 4 at the top of each page on this sites banner display.
    You sure about that? What household names can you think of that have copied Bargue drawings, to the levels they are taken today? Syd Mead? Iain McCaig? Craig Mullins? Feng Zhu? Howard Pyle? N.C. Wyeth? Moebius? Andrew Jones? Doug Chiang? Wayne Barlowe? Gil Elvgren? Frazetta? James Gurney? Scott Robertson? Henry Yan? Brom? IDK...maybe some of them did...it would be interesting to know.

    Again, not trying to be a dick, rather just point out that they are not some "required" rite of passage or learning tool. Most people, imho, would be better off turning those hundreds of hours into just good solid observational drawing from life, inventive drawing from imagination, or any number of other study activities that don't slavishly copy a 2D form from one piece of paper to another. If that's what you're after, go for it.

    Edit: I just want to be clear, in response to Arshes reply (which I agree with), I'm not knocking doing Bargue drawings nor do I have any "hostility" to that approach, merely asking the question of their value in learning to draw, as evidenced by contemporary practicing professionals and those of the last 100 years or so. Again, of course it depends on your goals...if you want to be the next Juliette Aristedes copy away, if you want to make dynamic, dramatic paintings might want to go a different route.

    Last edited by JeffX99; April 27th, 2012 at 01:29 PM.
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    I've done a few and used them more for learning to concentrate the mind and shading technique than anything else. I've only done the feet and hands and spent a max of 6 hours on each one. I do think spending 100 hours is a bit excessive on making an exact copy of someone else's work.

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    Considering the OP never made that argument to begin with, I'm puzzled why we're having the argument if it's required.

    He is addressing those who ARE doing them. If you don't do them fine...we know it's not required. If you do it's already stated that 100s of hours is not necessary.

    The OP's question however points to the problem of "I need to be given an exact approximation of how I'll improve" and it's something of a facepalm which goes back to this post

    Just to say OP, stop worrying about other people's progress and how long it takes them to learn. Just keep pushing through it and you'll find your own rewards.

    Last edited by Arshes Nei; April 27th, 2012 at 01:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Considering the OP never made that argument to begin with, I'm puzzled why we're having the argument if it's required.

    He is addressing those who ARE doing them. If you don't do them fine...we know it's not required. If you do it's already stated that 100s of hours is not necessary.

    The OP's question however points to the problem of "I need to be given an exact approximation of how I'll improve" and it's something of a facepalm which goes back to this post
    You're right Arshes, and I really considered whether to even reply with my question. In the end I thought it was a valid question to ask of the OP, and by implication others who just blindly engage in certain study patterns because they read you should do that. And I'm not even necessarily saying the OP is blindly engaging in this approach, they've never really responded to clarify what their goals and aspirations are. For all I know they are iinterested in academic, atelier training to head into traditional portraiture.

    I just feel there is so much information out there, so many conflicting points of view, people need to ask more about "why" than how or what or how long. Answering for yourself the "why" behind anything leads to the who, how and what.

    Didn't mean to derail the thread from the get-go or start a big ruckus, just wanted to raise the question as an important part of the discussion.

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  35. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post

    Again, not trying to be a dick, rather just point out that they are not some "required" rite of passage or learning tool. .
    I don't see where that was brought up by the OP

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    if you want to be the next Juliette Aristedes copy away, if you want to make dynamic, dramatic paintings might want to go a different route.
    Getting pretty judgmental there aren't you Jeff?

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  36. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig D View Post
    I don't see where that was brought up by the OP
    Seemed implied by the question of how many Bargues did you draw and what did you get out of them? I simply asked the common sense question how many top pros draw them? If the answer is most, all or few it would indicate whether they have much value, again, outside an atelier.

    Still haven't seen any household names offered up that swear by them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig D View Post
    Getting pretty judgmental there aren't you Jeff?
    How so? Wasn't a judgment at all...just the obvious conclusion drawn from the results of very different approaches to drawing and painting. Was actually just saying whatever your goals are, follow the methodology that takes you there.

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  37. #22
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    I've done a couple. If you're at a very, very basic level then they can be handy. I found cast drawings infinitely more useful.

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  39. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    How so? Wasn't a judgment at all...just the obvious conclusion drawn from the results of very different approaches to drawing and painting. Was actually just saying whatever your goals are, follow the methodology that takes you there.
    As far as I've discovered Bargue drawings are a great practice for anyone who has trouble pushing pieces to finished states. I didn't care that I was being a copy machine for a bit, that's not the part I was holding onto after I was done. However I did hold onto the patients it took to complete a bargue drawing. For this my fantasy orcs and beefy men with axes have prospered.

    Any practice is multifaceted, it really depends on the person to pull out the bits he wants and throw away the things that he thinks are irrelevant.

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    I've done 3 or 4 (look in my sb, I haven't looked in awhile to count).

    I wanted to "see" better, and focusing on the aspects of a Bargue did just that.

    I was thinking, analyzing the process along with other ideas I'd had about producing the image, which helped me out in the long run.

    I took at least a week or 2 on each, but my goals were different that most that try them.

    Edit: I also didn't want to become a photocopy machine, which if I continued, would have occurred.

    Last edited by OmenSpirits; April 27th, 2012 at 05:46 PM.
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  43. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    But. . .

    Was it useful?

    For my portfolio? No.

    For learning to perfect pencil technique, to learn how to see with a critical eye, to force myself to take my time, to use a 'perfectionist' attitude once and get rid of impatience... yes, absolutely

    (Four were a bit much, though. Three Bargues would've done the trick sufficiently)

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  45. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maidith View Post
    (Four were a bit much, though. Three Bargues would've done the trick sufficiently)
    I'm glad to hear Angel is cutting down, that seems eminently sensible.


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  47. #27
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    The best thing about doing a grueling copy of something as a beginner is that it very quickly sensitizes you to extreme subtleties... and bold generalities... and the essential symbiotic relationship between extreme subtlety and broad generality in realism.

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  49. #28
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    I came into an atellier with very little aptitude. I did 7 master copies drawings. Most were Bargues. In total it took about 15- 20 hours for each one. This thread is interesting. BTW bargues are a primer to the atelier system. It is how you get into it swinging. Basic concepts are introduced and it is a safe environment to learn. I was slow so i did more. an equivalent exercise is like constructing spheres and cubes. What is wrong with introducing basic concepts within a safe environment?

    Last edited by kinjark; April 27th, 2012 at 10:51 PM.
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  51. #29
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    Well, I did go to an atelier and I did one in 30 minutes(was not required). Found it completely useless. I had more fun copying maps of world rather than Bargues.

    I still sorta find meticulous pencil rendering kinda ridiculous in a way(and I've seen some fucking kickass kickass pencil renderings). You can do it in a fraction of time with much more engaging results with paint you know?

    For me the tradeoff of the little subtlety and intimacy that pencil rendering brings just doesn't compensate for the much broader possibilities that painting has.

    Similarly, I'm sure beginners would learn so much more from doing 10 quick cast paintings in the time it took to do one bargue copy(well, I heard it took like 20 hours to do one perfect copy, so if you spend 2 hours on each painting).

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    I did half of one and concluded that they're only good for sensitizing artists. I spent the extra time on casts and live models, though. I'd argue that past breaking an artist into letting go of symbolic vision, working with a live model is infinitely more useful. The model moves, so you have to establish all your construction quickly and accurately and compensate for the movement with an overall idea of the gesture and statement. With a bargue you can noodle and noodle and plot and grid and do whatever you need to do, a luxury that is not feasible or very helpful in any kind of life drawing, not even 80 hour poses.

    In fact once I started to sketch imaginatively, having too much of a 'measurer's mindset' was prohibitive instead of helpful.

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