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  1. #91
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    I've got to agree about Game of thrones. I was a big fan of Martins' work in the early years: Song for Lya, Fever Dream, Sand Kings; but I don't like the Game of Throne books.The writing is top notch and the characters well realized, plots convoluted and convincing BUT I want my fantasy to be fantastic and FICTION; I want good and evil and the good guys to win and the bad gouys to lose. I don't want real life, with a couple of wierd things thrown in to make it seem fantastic. I want peoples efforts to have meaning and affect the world and its outcome. Thats why I read; to forget about real life for awhile. If I want real life I'll watch the F'ing news.


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  3. #92
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    OP, you should check out MadMen too.

  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    I've got to agree about Game of thrones. I was a big fan of Martins' work in the early years: Song for Lya, Fever Dream, Sand Kings; but I don't like the Game of Throne books.[...]I don't want real life, with a couple of wierd things thrown in to make it seem fantastic. I want peoples efforts to have meaning and affect the world and its outcome. Thats why I read; to forget about real life for awhile. If I want real life I'll watch the F'ing news.
    There's nothing wrong with good old escapism, but Martin was never big on escapism or the classical epic good-prevails-over-evil plots. About the most optimistic his stories ever got was "the hell of it"type of hero with nothing to lose or enough cynicism standing up - e.g. Tuf's Voyages or Dying of the Light. Then you get the evil-prevails-over-other-evil, e.g. Sand Kings or In the House of the Worm. And then you get the full-on, undiluted horror infiniti, e.g. Stone City. And nearly always there is a permeating theme of space and time being too big to comprehend even on one world, and circumstances doing even the best people in.

    So I think the Game of Thrones is quite a good fit into Martin's themes.

  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    I've got to agree about Game of thrones. I was a big fan of Martins' work in the early years: Song for Lya [...] I want good and evil and the good guys to win and the bad gouys to lose. I don't want real life, with a couple of wierd things thrown in to make it seem fantastic. I want peoples efforts to have meaning and affect the world and its outcome.
    I'm not sure we read the same story there. Song for Lya has no villains, and no one really wins or loses. It's more like George's just talking out loud while thinking about the universe and the concept of god and the afterlife. I think the idea that there are no bad guys, just people who disagree with you is a running theme in just about every Martin story. The only one I can think of right now that has a clear heroes and villains set-up is The Ice Dragon.

  6. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    I've got to agree about Game of thrones. I was a big fan of Martins' work in the early years: Song for Lya, Fever Dream, Sand Kings; but I don't like the Game of Throne books.The writing is top notch and the characters well realized, plots convoluted and convincing BUT I want my fantasy to be fantastic and FICTION; I want good and evil and the good guys to win and the bad gouys to lose. I don't want real life, with a couple of wierd things thrown in to make it seem fantastic. I want peoples efforts to have meaning and affect the world and its outcome. Thats why I read; to forget about real life for awhile. If I want real life I'll watch the F'ing news.
    I dunno about not being able to "escape" I like the fact the fantasy is more subtle here because it makes those elements a bit more special. I also don't mind there's no clear "white hat/black hat" villain or good guy. I just enjoy the characters or get to hate them a bit more for their decisions

  7. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    I've got to agree about Game of thrones. I was a big fan of Martins' work in the early years: Song for Lya, Fever Dream, Sand Kings; but I don't like the Game of Throne books.The writing is top notch and the characters well realized, plots convoluted and convincing BUT I want my fantasy to be fantastic and FICTION; I want good and evil and the good guys to win and the bad gouys to lose. I don't want real life, with a couple of wierd things thrown in to make it seem fantastic. I want peoples efforts to have meaning and affect the world and its outcome. Thats why I read; to forget about real life for awhile. If I want real life I'll watch the F'ing news.
    Interesting, that's exactly what I DO like about Game of Thrones. I like the fact that it ISN'T polarized into "Good" and "Bad", and that all the characters are complex and multidimensional...

    I've always been annoyed by books that turn everything into "good guys versus bad guys"... We get enough of that kind of thinking in real life, with people spouting vitriol about how their point of view is the only True point of view and everyone else is inferior and/or going to Hell. Enough with the black and white, Give me a full range of shades of gray. Heck, give me technicolor.

    Plus, let's face it, Good Guys are almost always boring...

    (Heh. Between us I think we cover two of the most common reasons why some people don't like GOT, and why some other people love it...)
    Last edited by QueenGwenevere; April 7th, 2012 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Typos, yo...

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  9. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post
    Interesting, that's exactly what I DO like about Game of Thrones. I like the fact that it ISN'T polarized into "Good" and "Bad", and that all the characters are complex and multidimensional...

    I've always been annoyed by books that turn everything into "good guys versus bad guys"... We get enough of that kind of thinking in real life, with people spouting vitriol about how their point of view is the only True point of view and everyone else is inferior and/or going to Hell. Enough with the black and white, Give me a full range of shades of gray. Heck, give me technicolor.

    Plus, let's face it, Good Guys are almost always boring...

    (Heh. Between us I think we cover two of the most common reasons why some people don't like GOT, and why some other people love it...)



  10. #98
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    I would agree with the good vs evil being boring thing. Buuuuut..... it depends on how they reinvent and tell the story. Simple good vs evil isn't what makes a story boring or entertaining. It's whether the person knows how to tell the story plain and simple.

    Adding those gray characters that keeps you guessing, not knowing exactly what will happen or adding an amazing twist, make the story build on itself, give the readers emotional attachment to a character then don't be afraid to cut the strings if it's a necessary death (I hate a lot of stories just because they won't kill off any characters), a nice mythology in a fantasy setting. But the problem is balancing it so it's not convoluted.

  11. #99
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    I liked the first three books but bailed when it started looking like Martin had a case of Jordanitis. At about this time I discovered Malazan, which had most of what of Song of Ice and Fire had, but had like... 25% more Glen-Cook-style badassery. It's like SoIaF and Black Company screwed like rabbits and had ten doorstop babies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineris View Post
    ...and had ten doorstop babies.
    Haha, doorstop babies? I've never heard that expression before...or is that an exclusive Game of Thrones phrase?

  13. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star Eater View Post
    Haha, doorstop babies? I've never heard that expression before...or is that an exclusive Game of Thrones phrase?
    It refers to doorstop books: enough pages to hold open a door if you need to.
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  15. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineris View Post
    I liked the first three books but bailed when it started looking like Martin had a case of Jordanitis. At about this time I discovered Malazan, which had most of what of Song of Ice and Fire had, but had like... 25% more Glen-Cook-style badassery. It's like SoIaF and Black Company screwed like rabbits and had ten doorstop babies.
    Same here. I actually thought that they might be the same guy up until jordan died. They looked a lot alike. Martian started off being refreshing because he was willing to kill anybody to further the story, but he became almost formulaic to the point it was predicable.

    Another thing I don't like about him is he seems to reviel in loading his books with needless trash. I can understand if he wants to imply the trash, but we don't really need to be imersed in all its perverted details.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorinji_Knight View Post
    Another thing I don't like about him is he seems to reviel in loading his books with needless trash. I can understand if he wants to imply the trash, but we don't really need to be imersed in all its perverted details.
    You're cute.

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  17. #104
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    urmm... thanks... I guess I can live with that.


  18. #105
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    It always surprises me that such perversion still seems to be an issue, especially in the usa. Then again, one of our dutch writers who is considered to be one of our greatest writers had himself pictured having anal sex with Jesus personificated (is this a word?) as a donkey... so perhaps my view on this is a bit skewed.

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