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  1. #91
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    I've got to agree about Game of thrones. I was a big fan of Martins' work in the early years: Song for Lya, Fever Dream, Sand Kings; but I don't like the Game of Throne books.The writing is top notch and the characters well realized, plots convoluted and convincing BUT I want my fantasy to be fantastic and FICTION; I want good and evil and the good guys to win and the bad gouys to lose. I don't want real life, with a couple of wierd things thrown in to make it seem fantastic. I want peoples efforts to have meaning and affect the world and its outcome. Thats why I read; to forget about real life for awhile. If I want real life I'll watch the F'ing news.

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  3. #92
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    OP, you should check out MadMen too.

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  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    I've got to agree about Game of thrones. I was a big fan of Martins' work in the early years: Song for Lya, Fever Dream, Sand Kings; but I don't like the Game of Throne books.[...]I don't want real life, with a couple of wierd things thrown in to make it seem fantastic. I want peoples efforts to have meaning and affect the world and its outcome. Thats why I read; to forget about real life for awhile. If I want real life I'll watch the F'ing news.
    There's nothing wrong with good old escapism, but Martin was never big on escapism or the classical epic good-prevails-over-evil plots. About the most optimistic his stories ever got was "the hell of it"type of hero with nothing to lose or enough cynicism standing up - e.g. Tuf's Voyages or Dying of the Light. Then you get the evil-prevails-over-other-evil, e.g. Sand Kings or In the House of the Worm. And then you get the full-on, undiluted horror infiniti, e.g. Stone City. And nearly always there is a permeating theme of space and time being too big to comprehend even on one world, and circumstances doing even the best people in.

    So I think the Game of Thrones is quite a good fit into Martin's themes.

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  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    I've got to agree about Game of thrones. I was a big fan of Martins' work in the early years: Song for Lya [...] I want good and evil and the good guys to win and the bad gouys to lose. I don't want real life, with a couple of wierd things thrown in to make it seem fantastic. I want peoples efforts to have meaning and affect the world and its outcome.
    I'm not sure we read the same story there. Song for Lya has no villains, and no one really wins or loses. It's more like George's just talking out loud while thinking about the universe and the concept of god and the afterlife. I think the idea that there are no bad guys, just people who disagree with you is a running theme in just about every Martin story. The only one I can think of right now that has a clear heroes and villains set-up is The Ice Dragon.

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  6. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    I've got to agree about Game of thrones. I was a big fan of Martins' work in the early years: Song for Lya, Fever Dream, Sand Kings; but I don't like the Game of Throne books.The writing is top notch and the characters well realized, plots convoluted and convincing BUT I want my fantasy to be fantastic and FICTION; I want good and evil and the good guys to win and the bad gouys to lose. I don't want real life, with a couple of wierd things thrown in to make it seem fantastic. I want peoples efforts to have meaning and affect the world and its outcome. Thats why I read; to forget about real life for awhile. If I want real life I'll watch the F'ing news.
    I dunno about not being able to "escape" I like the fact the fantasy is more subtle here because it makes those elements a bit more special. I also don't mind there's no clear "white hat/black hat" villain or good guy. I just enjoy the characters or get to hate them a bit more for their decisions

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  7. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    I've got to agree about Game of thrones. I was a big fan of Martins' work in the early years: Song for Lya, Fever Dream, Sand Kings; but I don't like the Game of Throne books.The writing is top notch and the characters well realized, plots convoluted and convincing BUT I want my fantasy to be fantastic and FICTION; I want good and evil and the good guys to win and the bad gouys to lose. I don't want real life, with a couple of wierd things thrown in to make it seem fantastic. I want peoples efforts to have meaning and affect the world and its outcome. Thats why I read; to forget about real life for awhile. If I want real life I'll watch the F'ing news.
    Interesting, that's exactly what I DO like about Game of Thrones. I like the fact that it ISN'T polarized into "Good" and "Bad", and that all the characters are complex and multidimensional...

    I've always been annoyed by books that turn everything into "good guys versus bad guys"... We get enough of that kind of thinking in real life, with people spouting vitriol about how their point of view is the only True point of view and everyone else is inferior and/or going to Hell. Enough with the black and white, Give me a full range of shades of gray. Heck, give me technicolor.

    Plus, let's face it, Good Guys are almost always boring...

    (Heh. Between us I think we cover two of the most common reasons why some people don't like GOT, and why some other people love it...)

    Last edited by QueenGwenevere; April 7th, 2012 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Typos, yo...
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  9. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post
    Interesting, that's exactly what I DO like about Game of Thrones. I like the fact that it ISN'T polarized into "Good" and "Bad", and that all the characters are complex and multidimensional...

    I've always been annoyed by books that turn everything into "good guys versus bad guys"... We get enough of that kind of thinking in real life, with people spouting vitriol about how their point of view is the only True point of view and everyone else is inferior and/or going to Hell. Enough with the black and white, Give me a full range of shades of gray. Heck, give me technicolor.

    Plus, let's face it, Good Guys are almost always boring...

    (Heh. Between us I think we cover two of the most common reasons why some people don't like GOT, and why some other people love it...)




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  10. #98
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    I would agree with the good vs evil being boring thing. Buuuuut..... it depends on how they reinvent and tell the story. Simple good vs evil isn't what makes a story boring or entertaining. It's whether the person knows how to tell the story plain and simple.

    Adding those gray characters that keeps you guessing, not knowing exactly what will happen or adding an amazing twist, make the story build on itself, give the readers emotional attachment to a character then don't be afraid to cut the strings if it's a necessary death (I hate a lot of stories just because they won't kill off any characters), a nice mythology in a fantasy setting. But the problem is balancing it so it's not convoluted.

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    I liked the first three books but bailed when it started looking like Martin had a case of Jordanitis. At about this time I discovered Malazan, which had most of what of Song of Ice and Fire had, but had like... 25% more Glen-Cook-style badassery. It's like SoIaF and Black Company screwed like rabbits and had ten doorstop babies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vineris View Post
    ...and had ten doorstop babies.
    Haha, doorstop babies? I've never heard that expression before...or is that an exclusive Game of Thrones phrase?

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  13. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star Eater View Post
    Haha, doorstop babies? I've never heard that expression before...or is that an exclusive Game of Thrones phrase?
    It refers to doorstop books: enough pages to hold open a door if you need to.

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  15. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineris View Post
    I liked the first three books but bailed when it started looking like Martin had a case of Jordanitis. At about this time I discovered Malazan, which had most of what of Song of Ice and Fire had, but had like... 25% more Glen-Cook-style badassery. It's like SoIaF and Black Company screwed like rabbits and had ten doorstop babies.
    Same here. I actually thought that they might be the same guy up until jordan died. They looked a lot alike. Martian started off being refreshing because he was willing to kill anybody to further the story, but he became almost formulaic to the point it was predicable.

    Another thing I don't like about him is he seems to reviel in loading his books with needless trash. I can understand if he wants to imply the trash, but we don't really need to be imersed in all its perverted details.

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  16. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorinji_Knight View Post
    Another thing I don't like about him is he seems to reviel in loading his books with needless trash. I can understand if he wants to imply the trash, but we don't really need to be imersed in all its perverted details.
    You're cute.


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  17. #104
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    urmm... thanks... I guess I can live with that.

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    It always surprises me that such perversion still seems to be an issue, especially in the usa. Then again, one of our dutch writers who is considered to be one of our greatest writers had himself pictured having anal sex with Jesus personificated (is this a word?) as a donkey... so perhaps my view on this is a bit skewed.

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  20. #106
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    Game of Thrones is awesome

    I haven´t watched the new season beacause i am waiting to catch up with the reading, i only bought the books a couple weeks ago. First book done going on the second.


    I don´t remember them ever mentioning the children of the forest in the series, there are goddamn elves involved in Game of Thrones and i wasn´t aware? duuude.

    I keep my hopes high for cool elvish stuff later on.

    Last edited by JDSart; April 7th, 2012 at 08:52 PM.
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  21. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post
    Interesting, that's exactly what I DO like about Game of Thrones. I like the fact that it ISN'T polarized into "Good" and "Bad", and that all the characters are complex and multidimensional...

    I've always been annoyed by books that turn everything into "good guys versus bad guys"... We get enough of that kind of thinking in real life, with people spouting vitriol about how their point of view is the only True point of view and everyone else is inferior and/or going to Hell. Enough with the black and white, Give me a full range of shades of gray. Heck, give me technicolor.

    Plus, let's face it, Good Guys are almost always boring...

    (Heh. Between us I think we cover two of the most common reasons why some people don't like GOT, and why some other people love it...)
    I believe the main purpose for Sansa on the first book is setting an example of that. Shes has her head filled with black and white heroic fantasy stories and all of her ideas get brutally shattered by the reality.

    She is the closest there is in the book to the canon princess and that same thing made her my least favorite character in so far.

    For some reason i´m also not much of a fan of Catelyn Stark either, can´t pinpoint why exactly, i just picture her as kinda dry and a stuck up.

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  22. #108
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    "Then again, one of our dutch writers who is considered to be one of our greatest writers had himself pictured having anal sex with Jesus personificated (is this a word?) as a donkey... so perhaps my view on this is a bit skewed."

    Kerrrraaazy! Good old europe!



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  23. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDSart View Post
    I believe the main purpose for Sansa on the first book is setting an example of that. Shes has her head filled with black and white heroic fantasy stories and all of her ideas get brutally shattered by the reality.

    She is the closest there is in the book to the canon princess and that same thing made her my least favorite character in so far.

    For some reason i´m also not much of a fan of Catelyn Stark either, can´t pinpoint why exactly, i just picture her as kinda dry and a stuck up.
    No spoilers, but both Sansa and Catelyn change significantly over the course of the series.


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  25. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post

    Well, wadya know, I always thought it was an interview with George Bush.



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  27. #111
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    I think Bundy actually looks more like singer Neil Diamond:



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  28. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    No spoilers, but both Sansa and Catelyn change significantly over the course of the series.
    That is what i´m expecting, mostly with Sansa, now that she had that big reality check and is now stuck in a heavier situation.

    I never either liked or hated Catelyn, i think i always leaned more towards not liking her because my two favorite characters are Tyrion and Jon Snow, both of which had a rough patch with her, in general i just thought of her as uninteresting. Now that Ned is gone her character should to step up to its weight as the head of the Stark family.

    I so need to start with Clash of Kings tonight.

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  29. #113
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    Thats interesting to hear; Sansa seemed like she was being set up to be killed to teach the other younger characters a lesson. I will watch with interest.

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  30. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    No spoilers, but both Sansa and Catelyn change significantly over the course of the series.
    One quite a bit more than the other .

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  32. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDSart View Post
    I don´t remember them ever mentioning the children of the forest in the series, there are goddamn elves involved in Game of Thrones and i wasn´t aware? duuude.

    I keep my hopes high for cool elvish stuff later on.
    No. There are no elves in Game of Thrones or the Song of Fire and Ice series. Martin finds that theme done to death. Children of the forest are something else. But I haven't really spoiled anything because like a lot of things in the series there are many legends and folklore but a lot of lore is...lost. (which is also one of the reasons I like the series, legends can stay legends).

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  34. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    No. There are no elves in Game of Thrones or the Song of Fire and Ice series. Martin finds that theme done to death. Children of the forest are something else. But I haven't really spoiled anything because like a lot of things in the series there are many legends and folklore but a lot of lore is...lost. (which is also one of the reasons I like the series, legends can stay legends).
    Aww. thanks for clearing it up a bit.

    In the chapter where the Maester tells the story of the Children of the Forest i sort of imagined a version of the good folk or a more down to earth faerie kind, i just sort of made a connection and thought of an elvish race, being a fantasy novel after all (I´ll always keep a soft spot for elves )

    When Osha mentions how outside the wall they still exist, i felt it like kind of a wink to keep them in mind for later, but i realize, same as when they mention anything about the other side of wall, it might be just to add to the mistery and keep one curious. At least was god to know some background behind the oldswoods and the faces in the trees.

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    hmm, well, to keep on the subject, things I wish people would stop doing:

    -Docking my pay if I want/have to take time off, while not giving me anything extra whenever I have to stay late.

    -Telling me that I shouldn't complain about the above because I should feel lucky to have a job in the game industry.

    -Inversely, telling me that I shouldn't complain because that's "just the way things are" in this industry. Or that if I don't like it I should get out, or that there are tons of artists lined up who would love to take my job, or any number of other bits meant to make me fall in line and shut up.

    -Remembering every time I've screwed up and holding it against me. Hell, I wish I could stop doing that too.

    -Following rules, laws, or social constructs that helps nobody but he person/group who made the rule.

    -Treating insanity like it needs to be cured. Or just staring at me like I'm a crazy person.

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  36. #118
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    ^this thread stopped being about what people need to stop doing pages ago. We've moved onto the awesomeness that is game of thrones.

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  38. #119
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    So what did people think about the CG of the dragons in Game of thrones?

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  39. #120
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    The cg is pretty natural looking on the dragons. I particularly admire the animation. It really shows that these dragons aren't beasts to be feared just yet. They hardly know what to do with their wings.

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