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    To some extent, this is no more evil than the Medieval concept of "apprenticeship."

    If these American students actually move on to work at a level that allows them to live "The American Dream"-- no harm, no foul.

    And, Americans WOULD make iPads-- it's just that factory workers here think that productive labor should be rewarded at a level that allows one to: buy a house; raise children with savings that allow for their "higher education," and retire in one's old age with a modicum of security and dignity.

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    Why pay your labor force when they can pay you, in order to work for you...?

    Is this the gist of their logic?

    Last edited by Alex Eh; April 1st, 2012 at 05:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    To some extent, this is no more evil than the Medieval concept of "apprenticeship."
    Apprentices didn't generally pay their masters, and received at least free room and board, if not pay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meloncov View Post
    Apprentices didn't generally pay their masters, and received at least free room and board, if not pay.
    Probably true, (think, perhaps, their parents re various expenses) but unlike African American pickers of cotton that got a free boat ride, apprentices had the expectation of developing career skills involving an independent existence after executing their "Meistersteuck" and fulfilling the conditions of the guilds proper.

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    I really want to go on a big rant here - but I'm kinda speechless.... 105 000$? My brain hurts trying to figure out how long it would take to pay that back on an animator salary - not to mention food, board and living on top of that!!
    I know a few people who worked full time jobs to pay for their unpaid, 6 month internship - to have enough experience to find a paying job. >.<
    Starting in the animation industry is tough- but not burn 105 000 dollars tough.

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    This is a disturbing trend growing out of people willing to take art tests and work on spec in the first place. Same with Internships, the law about internships in America is an internship can't replace a paid worker or you have to pay the intern; not only do companies violate this, but people still want to do it thinking it will pay off for them. It rarely does.

    Its just more exploitation by people who can afford to pay for services but won't as long as there are crowds of artists wiling to give them what they want for almost free turning the profession of art into minimum wage work.
    I just had someone write to me about using some of my art in a book that they couldn't pay me for.The margins were to tight. The only reason the margins are tight is because these people are taking more than their share of the money and not paying the talent. As long as the talent allows this the profession is doomed.

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    I was talking about this with a family member the other day "Why don't you just take an internship then they'll give you a job".

    When the trend is get them to do free unpaid work, then not hire them at all. "Oh they're getting 'experience' out of it".




    To the Americans would make ipads comment. In all reality it's what it should pay. Decent wage. Not ridiculous I can retire easily, go to college no worries in life. But it's not like your working in fast food. Depending on the job there's also work hazards left and right and it's not always the stereotypical push a button all day work. The issue is the obvious dirt cheap competition. When you can make workers in another country literally slave labor for pennies on the dollar with inhumane work conditions/hours. Why would you build them here? There's no way to compete in this market to drive production here. Hell it's why a lot of shows offshore their animation too.


    Same thing with internships. Why pay for something you can get for free? Exploitation as others have said.

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    The only saving grace of this whole thing is that it won't work nearly as well as they seem to think. There's a reason why students are students and professionals are professionals.


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    The thing that's somewhat incestuous, from the article, is that this Textor guy OWNS the school that'll be providing the "interns."

    However, I say, IF this is a reasonabie component of the students' education that makes for a real and productive job entry into the industry-- so be it.

    Otherwise, the guys a real asshat!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    This is a disturbing trend growing out of people willing to take art tests and work on spec in the first place. Same with Internships, the law about internships in America is an internship can't replace a paid worker or you have to pay the intern; not only do companies violate this, but people still want to do it thinking it will pay off for them. It rarely does.

    Its just more exploitation by people who can afford to pay for services but won't as long as there are crowds of artists wiling to give them what they want for almost free turning the profession of art into minimum wage work.
    I just had someone write to me about using some of my art in a book that they couldn't pay me for.The margins were to tight. The only reason the margins are tight is because these people are taking more than their share of the money and not paying the talent. As long as the talent allows this the profession is doomed.

    No, the profession will thrive in various Asian countries as many other professions do.

    Look down, now, at your shoes-- where were they made?

    Look at your cell phone-- who made it?

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    It would be okay if they were working off their tuition, but charging them to work for free is disgusting. But suckers will be suckers. I doubt leeching off who ever is dumb enough to fall for this will pan out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    No, the profession will thrive in various Asian countries as many other professions do.

    Look down, now, at your shoes-- where were they made?

    Look at your cell phone-- who made it?
    Well if making art to you is the same as making shoes on a factory line or cell phones, then the profession is still doomed even if someone overseas does it.

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    Well, this seems like someone who has never had to use student labour for anything. I don't know how he plans to produce anything with a workforce of people you can barely trust to tie their own shoes in the morning, which is going to rotate out completely every 2-4 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhubix View Post
    I really want to go on a big rant here - but I'm kinda speechless.... 105 000$? My brain hurts trying to figure out how long it would take to pay that back on an animator salary - not to mention food, board and living on top of that!!
    I know a few people who worked full time jobs to pay for their unpaid, 6 month internship - to have enough experience to find a paying job. >.<
    Starting in the animation industry is tough- but not burn 105 000 dollars tough.
    It will cost around $ 150,000 to pay back over ten years. Monthly payments of around $1300 a month for ten years.

    If you take longer to pay it off, it will cost around $250,000.

    If they invested the $105,000 for 25 years with an average return of 7% and re-investing the dividends/interest, they would have about $570,000.

    Apprenticeships:

    Most trades still have an apprenticeship program. You typically pay about $1,000 a year for ten weeks of school for four years. You start at around 50% of the journeyman wage. You receive regular pay increases of 5% every six months until you reach the journeyman level (4 or 5 years). I also got ten weeks of PAID work experience in my first year.

    Different states and countries have additional benefits. I get a tool allowance, school bursaries, tax write-offs, government grants, and excellent medical benefits. And I work a normal 40 hour week instead of the 80 hour weeks I worked in the game industry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Well if making art to you is the same as making shoes on a factory line or cell phones, then the profession is still doomed even if someone overseas does it.
    Ever watch "The Simpsons?"

    Wanna use your hard earned skills to work as an AD for them?

    Can you speak Korean?

    Go fer it. . .

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    I hope this is a flash in a pan rather than a virus waiting to infect other parts of the industry...

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    What would you say about art schools charging students (as part of a tuition) for an internship working at a professional environment helping to create an original product (games, films, shorts, etc.)? Would this also be considered an exploitation? Or does the experience gained from working with professionals give the students advantage in the long run? What if the studios keep using new generation of students to work on their projects for free?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyunjae View Post
    What would you say about art schools charging students (as part of a tuition) for an internship working at a professional environment helping to create an original product (games, films, shorts, etc.)? Would this also be considered an exploitation? Or does the experience gained from working with professionals give the students advantage in the long run? What if the studios keep using new generation of students to work on their projects for free?
    "The Labor Department's six criteria for a legal unpaid internship are:

    1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment;

    2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;

    3. The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff;

    4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;

    5. The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship; and

    6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship. "

    and:

    "The Labor Department is also very clear that while clerical skills may be applicable to other jobs, any productive labor should be paid under minimum wage laws. "

    full article here: http://education-portal.com/articles...ternships.html

    Some employers are better about it than others. DD has outright stated they plan to have up to 30% of their workforce be students. I'm curious to see if there will be a federal ruling on the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vineris View Post
    Well, this seems like someone who has never had to use student labour for anything. I don't know how he plans to produce anything with a workforce of people you can barely trust to tie their own shoes in the morning, which is going to rotate out completely every 2-4 years.
    The cool thing about (most) students is you don't have to see them very often. They show up about 40% of the time they're supposed to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    Ever watch "The Simpsons?"

    Wanna use your hard earned skills to work as an AD for them?

    Can you speak Korean?

    Go fer it. . .
    I really hope the Simpsons isn't your benchmark for pro-level American animation. We haven't sunk that far yet .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidharth Chaturvedi View Post
    I really hope the Simpsons isn't your benchmark for pro-level American animation. We haven't sunk that far yet .
    Crissakes. . . that show just won't die!

    I think it started back in the '50s. . . .

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    Well a lot of modern day TV animation is sadly subcontracted to Korea. Avatar, Young Justice is a new series where I like the animation, just searched it, Korea lol.

    Hell one of my favorite cartoons ever the old Batman the animated series was done anywhere but the U.S. I found

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcQ8E3y7-Uc


    Most of it is conceived here but processed elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    The cool thing about (most) students is you don't have to see them very often. They show up about 40% of the time they're supposed to.
    Well it's hard to go places when your shoes are untied. The hangover probably doesn't help either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFierce View Post
    Well a lot of modern day TV animation is sadly subcontracted to Korea. Avatar, Young Justice is a new series where I like the animation, just searched it, Korea lol.

    Hell one of my favorite cartoons ever the old Batman the animated series was done anywhere but the U.S. I found

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcQ8E3y7-Uc


    Most of it is conceived here but processed elsewhere.
    The scutwork of TV animation (in-betweening, ink and paint, etc) has been outsourced to Asia since at least the '70s.


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    Never studied anything about animation or it's processes, growing up I just thought "Oh it's batman he was created here, must be made here".

    Is the initial line work at least animated at the original studio? Because from the Batman video it looks like the entire appearance just completely changed, lines and how it's inked, painted etc.

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    So does that mean that we're at the point where it's not financially feasible to do any commercial animation in the U.S. or have we been there for awhile? Movies produced by large studios (Disney,Pixar, Dreamworks) seem to be the one exception.

    I should also add that I don't really like what they're doing either but I've had to do the same thing to get where I am now. So I understand why students would still try to take advantage of this and why studios would create a set up like this. Risky but potentially beneficial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reutte View Post
    So does that mean that we're at the point where it's not financially feasible to do any commercial animation in the U.S. or have we been there for awhile? Movies produced by large studios (Disney,Pixar, Dreamworks) seem to be the one exception.

    There's a fair amount of CG and stop motion animation done for television within the states. It's just traditional 2d animation that isn't viable to produce in the states on TV budgets.

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  42. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meloncov View Post
    There's a fair amount of CG and stop motion animation done for television within the states. It's just traditional 2d animation that isn't viable to produce in the states on TV budgets.
    What productions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFierce View Post
    Is the initial line work at least animated at the original studio? Because from the Batman video it looks like the entire appearance just completely changed, lines and how it's inked, painted etc.
    If you're interested on that, I could recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Masters.../dp/1893905306 (as well as Dini's book too I'd guess)
    It talks quite a bit of the actual studio/animation stuff that was going on during the series and differences between them. I don't remember if your exact question was answered or how though, but it's still quite interesting book for some insight.

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