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  1. #61
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    Great thread and some really fascinating responses.
    I guess we've all been, are, and will be wh0res from time to time. And I guess we all share this in common. So everybody's view is kinda personal on this one, without being subjective. Therefore there is a lot to share.

    The wh0re is not a wh0re all the time. There is an area in her life that remains innocent of the practice; maybe its her kids, the guy she really loves, her mum, her hobby or just her moments of contentment with a couple of friends.
    This is her, and our, redemption.
    We wh0re our time every time we do something for money. Very few of us sit at the check-out till, dig the road, design iPad app icons or paint pictures of other people's dogs for fun. The horse does not stand between the shafts of the cart of its own accord.
    Like everybody here, I have undertaken work I wouldn't have done unless I was paid. A wh0re won't sleep with you unless she's paid.
    The commission comes in. Fuck it, I've got to do it, I need the money. It's that or driving a van.
    So I do it. ('cos it's a bit more fun than driving a van)
    But I always try and fall in love with my client's commission.
    So that the fucking becomes love making.
    So that that the punter becomes patron.
    So that the wh0re in me is once again, redeemed.

    Last edited by Chris Bennett; March 28th, 2012 at 05:25 AM.
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  4. #62
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  6. #63
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    So Chris,
    Is there a line for you? I agree we all take work when we need money, that we wouldn't take if we were better off. But is there ever a time driving the truck is the better solution? Even those men and women practicing the oldest profession have things they won't do, or so I've been told.

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  7. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    Cute kevtard, but you didnt define those lines yet. just so i know exactly what it is i dont believe in, like.
    The lines are being defined. They aren't defined.

    And your use of "tard" is very offensive. Do you make it a habit to make fun of the mentally disabled? Because they can't help it, you know. Its no different than being racist. Tards are people too.

    At least Icarus tried!


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  8. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    So Chris,
    Is there a line for you? I agree we all take work when we need money, that we wouldn't take if we were better off. But is there ever a time driving the truck is the better solution? Even those men and women practicing the oldest profession have things they won't do, or so I've been told.
    That line is always shifting depending on circumstances. A gallery approached me recently but wanted me to sign a contract. I told them to stuff it. Had my situation been different I might have accepted the conditions. I signed a contract with a big publisher a few years back that was a lot more binding.
    I can be bought. We all can - when it’s about fundamentals of survival. There are very few exceptions and they are either saints or crazy (the same thing possibly).
    So I can be bought, but it’s not about finding my price, only my survival point.

    When we compromise our time for things other than life’s essentials, we by definition care about our appetite more than our work. That is when we are bought for a price rather than a necessity.
    When our material greed outweighs our spiritual need.
    That is when the line is crossed.
    That is when we betray our talent.

    Last edited by Chris Bennett; March 28th, 2012 at 01:38 PM.
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  9. #66
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    "And maybe we have found that illusive difference between an artist and an illustrator/designer/concept artist. As artist must have integrity or she/he is not an artist?"
    The question mark at the end. I was trying to further the discussion. And I was actually implying, maybe poorly, that perhaps only when integrity is maintained can something or someone move into that vaunted art realm or artist realm.

    Just goes to show why posting here with my penchant for the verbal is a pain in the ass.

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  10. #67
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    Hey - no worries Bill...still a great discussion. I really had to put my own thoughts through the mill a few times on that one, because I both agree and disagree with it at the same time.

    I think you can have integrity and do work for others...in whatever arena; personal, fine art, illustration, design...and you can also lack integrity in the exact same arenas as in the examples of landscape guys I was referring to.

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  11. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Hey - no worries Bill...still a great discussion. I really had to put my own thoughts through the mill a few times on that one, because I both agree and disagree with it at the same time.

    I think you can have integrity and do work for others...in whatever arena; personal, fine art, illustration, design...and you can also lack integrity in the exact same arenas as in the examples of landscape guys I was referring to.
    It's not the arena for me. Guess my writing needs some work. It's the piece and where it ends up eventually. An illustration created with a kind of integrity can reach a level where it crosses lines and a "fine art" piece can fall flat if certain lines are crossed.

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  13. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    The lines are being defined. They aren't defined.
    Thats adorable! clear as mud there, thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Its no different than being racist. Tards are people too.
    This from the Kev Ferrara Irony-Free Collection. Id take your cries to be more PC more seriously if you hadnt become quite so foul-mouthed in the Climategate thread.

    Anyway, Im done, sorry again Bill for over-reacting to what was really just a talking point, Kev take your meds.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; March 28th, 2012 at 09:08 PM.
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    If art is a religion, who do you pray to?

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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  15. #71
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    Art is my religion

    Religion
    Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life. They tend to derive morality, ethics, or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas.

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  16. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    If art is a religion, who do you pray to?
    Art redeems and refreshes the spirit, and the study of art, pondering the deep questions of aesthetics, is certainly Talmudic... rewarding study that becomes deeper with experience and the coherence of thought that comes with age.

    This is besides the fact that great art is produced on the basis of a faith in its value outside of materialist concerns, as I argued earlier.

    If one wanted to be precise, Transcendental Idealism is the actual name of the philosophy-cum-religion to which most artists subscribed prior to Modernism. And most realistic artists still do subscribe to much of this philosophy, without usually being conscious of it due to the break in the transmission of the old information through the generations. Transcendental Idealism is what has filtered down to us from the greats in dribs and drabs. Figure drawing is still taught largely through the old methods, but not much else. Some of the old language survives, but denuded of its actual meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viscosity Ken Doll View Post
    Thats adorable! clear as mud there, thanks.
    Velocity, you have intelligence, but your reading comprehension isn't always the best. If you can't understand what I'm saying, it wouldn't be the first time. Your problems with reading comprehension have resulted in your losing your cool both in this thread and the one you mentioned about Climate. That you see yourself as intrinsically righteous, in general, only compounds the problem (imo) because it keeps pointing you away from self-analysis.

    So, yes, I was only busting your chops. Which caused you to switch from calling me a retard to calling me mentally unstable. Might want to follow your own advice about some meds. (I was also busting your chops with the previous few posts, because I didn't like the attitude you were taking with Bill. That you apologized to him is a hopeful sign. Peace bro.)

    At least Icarus tried!


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  18. #73
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    I can't tell you how many people over the years have wanted me to take up meditation with them over the years, transcendental and otherwise. I try to explain that I spend a great chunk of my life in meditation, a most intense and deep meditation. Of all the meditation I have experienced both formally and otherwise I can never find my place faster than at my board.

    It is nice to still spend some time with zero focus away from the board, but for all of my early life "religious experiences" nothing compares to the day to day experience of creation.

    Corny maybe but true.

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  20. #74
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    Yeah, the zen aspects of creating art are certainly an essential part of the Religion Of Art for me.

    But, to clarify, Transcendental Idealism really doesn't have much to do with the ersatz-eastern Transcendental Meditation (aka TM) jive that swept Hippiedom during the 60s an 70s. Idealism is really a kind of technology for thinking hierarchically, associatively, and synthetically, which gave birth to Romanticism and Symbolism. Neo-platonism, Idealism, Transcendentalism, Romanticism, Symbolism, Swedenborgianism... different names for different offshoots, all more or less the same information. Its origins are usually said to be Germany because of the great philosophers who wrote their thoughts down about it through their tracts and arguments on Aesthetics (Kant, Hegel, Fichte, Schelling, Schiller, Schlegel, Goethe, etc.) but the actual origins go back to the Renaissance and from there back to antiquity and Aristotle et al.

    When an art student is told to work from the general to the specific, that is but a small legacy of Transcendental Idealism.

    At least Icarus tried!


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  22. #75
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    I'm with you kev. You writing that stuff just brought back memories.

    Just got a shiver of dread up my back with your list of philosophers. When I first came to my current position here about 15 years ago Focault was the demi-god of Postmodernism here. Somehow now when I see a list his name just shows up as a ghost image there for me. My nightmares.

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    For me, my artistic integrity is anchored in the desire to practice and improve my craft.

    Have your Plato, I'll stick with Aristotle

    ...which, although just barely, justifies yet another stab at Rand:

    “There are two novels that can transform a bookish 14-year-kld’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish daydream that can lead to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood in which large chunks of the day are spent inventing ways to make real life more like a fantasy novel. The other is a book about orcs.” – “The Value of Nothing” by Raj Patel

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    Quote Originally Posted by squidmonk3j View Post
    “There are two novels that can transform a bookish 14-year-kld’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.
    Three, he missed "Dune".

    Give it a couple of years and you can add Huxleys "Doors of Perception" and Hesses "Siddhartha".

    /tangent

    Anyway, do carry on, interesting read.

    Last edited by Flake; March 29th, 2012 at 08:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by squidmonk3j View Post
    For me, my artistic integrity is anchored in the desire to practice and improve my craft.

    Have your Plato, I'll stick with Aristotle

    ...which, although just barely, justifies yet another stab at Rand:

    “There are two novels that can transform a bookish 14-year-kld’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish daydream that can lead to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood in which large chunks of the day are spent inventing ways to make real life more like a fantasy novel. The other is a book about orcs.” – “The Value of Nothing” by Raj Patel

    Raj Patel
    His most recent book is The Value of Nothing[4] which was on The New York Times best-seller list during February 2010


    Ayn Rand
    The Fountainhead is a 1943 novel by Ayn Rand. It was Rand's first major literary success and brought her fame and financial success. More than 6.5 million copies of the book have been sold worldwide.

    Not that I need to defend Rand; but it seems like a comment from someone who was on the best seller list for almost a whole month taking a shot at Rands achievement of keeping her best selling book in print for almost 70 years is the nibbling of minnows.

    Last edited by dpaint; March 30th, 2012 at 12:27 AM.
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  28. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Velocity, you have intelligence, but your reading comprehension isn't always the best. If you can't understand what I'm saying, it wouldn't be the first time. Your problems with reading comprehension have resulted in your losing your cool both in this thread and the one you mentioned about Climate. That you see yourself as intrinsically righteous, in general, only compounds the problem (imo) because it keeps pointing you away from self-analysis.
    I know you are but what am I.
    dont worry Kev, behind the relentlessly superior front you take with me I know youre cool really, ( as I mentioned I read a lot of your old posts to mine them for wisdom) but consider this, you talked about poker tells; you can stick to your story that its my lack of reading comprehension that bugs you so much if you like, but my theory is Im exactly the like you remember being once, and it sets your teeth on edge.
    maybe im wrong, but i doubt it.

    re. books that change your life, thats a great topic in itself. I volunteer The Rediscovery of Man by Cordwainer Smith.
    Makes Dune seem dry and po-faced as desert sand.

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  29. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    but my theory is.... (insert pseudoscience here) maybe im wrong, but i doubt it.
    Certain habits of mind are depressing to encounter. That's all.

    At least Icarus tried!


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  30. #81
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    true enough, and calling the pot black before realising its actually reflective chrome will always be unsettling.

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  31. #82
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    If your wit could get its GSCE somehow, that would benefit us all.

    For example, if I said "you're obviously more refractive than reflective" in response to your "I'm a chrome mirror" retort above, you might say, "ah well, overheated air often causes a mirage to appear." Then I might say, "The illusion of authentic reflection is exactly your problem." And then you could say, "But the internet is a perfectly dispersive medium." And much merriment could be had by all.

    Don't be a shoe that won't come out of the mud. Be a starshine love rainbow instead. Hmm?

    At least Icarus tried!


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  33. #83
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    Did you just make up the perfectly dispersive medium thing?

    I'm really liking it.

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    Yes, yes. But now I'm mad at myself because I used For example instead of To wit:

    At least Icarus tried!


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    Great. Now I have to think about whether I want my little nickname to be Flaming Robot of Death...or Starshine Love Rainbow. Thanks kev.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Raj Patel
    His most recent book is The Value of Nothing[4] which was on The New York Times best-seller list during February 2010


    Ayn Rand
    The Fountainhead is a 1943 novel by Ayn Rand. It was Rand's first major literary success and brought her fame and financial success. More than 6.5 million copies of the book have been sold worldwide.

    Not that I need to defend Rand; but it seems like a comment from someone who was on the best seller list for almost a whole month taking a shot at Rands achievement of keeping her best selling book in print for almost 70 years is the nibbling of minnows.

    I have to admit that I have read nothing by Patel beyond that quote. And I have read both "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountainhead" several times (never bothered with Anthem, most likely because I had allready read "We" by Yevgeny Zamyatin and was aware of the linkage - even though there weren't any interwebz back then!)

    ...actually, I even vaguely remember reading a collection of essays(?) by Rand, from where I only partially remember the only quote-worthy lines she ever sold me. Please excuse my poor paraphrase:

    "[Slamming contemporary, experimental authors]...they adopt the mystic's age old adage: For those that understand, no explanation is necessary; for those that do not, no explanation is possible. Or, "I don't know why I'm doing it, and I don't intend to explain."

    Anyways,

    "artistic integrity" just doesn't sound right anymore. The adjective, even more so than the noun, is too drained, too broadly defined to carry any weight in my mind. It's range of relevance does not seem to extend beyond the circle jerk of art critics and the idle word plays found in coffeehouse and chat room conversations. Amusing, but usually irrelevant.

    In the future, everyone will have 15 minutes of privacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squidmonk3j View Post
    Amusing, but usually irrelevant.
    Isn't artistic integrity the very thing that is required to create deeper work?

    In arguing against the existence of Artistic Integrity, you are arguing against the existence of the very thing that would, in fact, prevent art from being merely "amusing"... merely irrelevant entertainment. This argument presents the danger, it seems to me, of becoming a self-fulfilling belief.

    And all because the words have become dead to you?

    Then change the words to something that works for you. The words aren't important anyway. The idea they represent, however, (it seems to me), is the essential thing.

    At least Icarus tried!


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    Without wanting to get too deep into definitions here, I think that my strategy is to focus on "craft" instead of "art". (ref, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Techne )

    Like I said above, my artistic integrity is anchored in the desire to practice and improve my craft. However, I think my core point is that this, for me, is an unecessary complication of the following: My integrity is anchored in the desire to practice and improve my life.

    Whether or not my work has deeper meaning to others, or is considered to be art, kitsch, prostitution, a waste of time, junk, etc etc, must always be beside the point.

    That said, you obviously have a point about not shying away from what one considers wrongful appropriation of words and their meaning.

    EDIT: Just to be clear, I do not mean to ridicule the belief in higher (Platonic, if you will) ideals.

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  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Isn't artistic integrity the very thing that is required to create deeper work?
    Interesting question (and I follow your drift that if you burn away all else isn't it integrity that remains the very core of the thing? That's what I got anyway...).

    So, in regard to "deeper work" and integrity...if it is integrity that lets us get to this deeper work, where does someone like Syd Mead fit in (assuming of course he is working with integrity)? Or is that such a different area of endeavor that there isn't much correlation?

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  41. #90
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    That's a solid question, Jeff.

    First we have to unpack the word "deep"... which is kind of a loaded word that's a bit too vague.

    Let's say, instead of "deep" that we are interested in work that has something about it that transcends the mere rendering of surfaces and substances and scenarios. And let's say that, in the act of creating art that is more evocative, the art also becomes more personal, necessarily. Because each of us has concerns that resonate more with us than others, and each of us has distinct temperaments, experiences, thinking patterns, imaginations, etc.

    So a Syd Mead can be evocative in a way that is totally different than an NC Wyeth or a Nicolai Fechin. Because all three artists have different concerns which transcend the mere rendering of what they depict. And in the act of creating their works each gives us a peek into their unique worldview unavailable elsewhere.

    At least Icarus tried!


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