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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aly Fell View Post

    On another note, I tried to read 'The Fountainhead', and found it ever so dreary, I had to give up. The only Ayn Rand book I made it through was 'Anthem', probably because it's short and there isn't enough time to be 'drearied out'. The problem with Rand's style of writing is that it feels like the plot is secondary to any ideas, which of course is her philosophy, so characters feel shoehorned in, and mere vehicles. As a result they feel shallow and unsympathetic.
    I should know Ayn Rand rubs people the wrong way. I read it when I was a young man out of my teens. It was the only book I could think of when I started the thread that had dealt with the issue, albeit in a heavy handed way.
    Now, if I want Rand philosophy I just listen to my Rush albulms.-)

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  4. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Bll, I don't think so and I would never draw such a distinction. Are you saying you don't believe in such an idea as artistic integrity?

    I started as an illustrator and I hope to do more in the future. What I find interesting is the guys I looked up to coming up and got to know on a personal level influenced my ideas on this. Frank Kelly Freas, Don Davis, Rick Sternbach, Iain McCaig, Gearge Barr. They were adamant not only how you paint (your style ) but also what you do difines you as an artist/illustrator.

    So if we drop the I'd do it for a million dollar idea; because lets face it most likely that is never the case; its always just your regular fee. You are all up for drawing furry porn or child porn or Skinhead posters as long as you get your rate because you are professional illustrators?
    Actually I am saying quite the opposite. Maybe a piece can only be elevated to that vaunted art status through integrity.

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  6. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Now, if I want Rand philosophy I just listen to my Rush albulms.-)
    At the risk of diverting this thread, I saw them fairly recently in Manchester (Goth cred straight out the window!), and they did '2112', albeit a shortened version. It was an excellent concert and pretty 'greatest hits'. It was also interesting to see both Rush and Peter Gabriel demand Rush Limbaugh stop using their music at rallies and on commercials. Good for them!

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  8. #34
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    One of my favourite Trailerpark Boys episodes is the one where they kidnap Alex Lifeson and at the end Bubbles accompanies him on Closer to the Heart

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature..._aG1Bg#t=1252s

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  10. #35
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    Art is a religion. One of its tenets is Artistic Integrity.

    Making a living is a non-ideological necessity.

    Many artists, out of necessity, fall away from the religion.

    At least Icarus tried!


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  12. #36
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    Well, it's pretty unlikely you'll ever see me illustrate Captain Bigdick's Adventures in Rapeland or My First Nazi Primer. But I have no problem imitating styles. If I CAN do it then it's just as mine as anybody else's. I'm just not the one that pioneered it. I don't think that being known as Discount McCaig is likely to lead to fame and fortune, but that's different from thinking it's not okay.

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  13. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Art is a religion. One of its tenets is Artistic Integrity.

    Making a living is a non-ideological necessity.

    Many artists, out of necessity, fall away from the religion.
    Is it possible to be an atheist? There are many strings to the artistic bow. Ultimately you have to be true to yourself, but there can be few artists who have not fulfilled a requirement for a client that sat uncomfortably with them, for all sorts of reasons. It is the privilege of the well-established who can dictate their vision as specific and uncompromising. The example I cited earlier where I politely declined an offer of work was a principled decision on my behalf as well as it being poorly timed on theirs, but it was a decision I was able to make based on my current circumstances. As others have said, and you also point out Kev, necessity means a drift, but it's not something most artists do willingly, I would imagine. This is a conversation I've had recently with my wife who is just about to have her first novel published (touch-wood). She was asked by the agent to make some alterations to the manuscript. She agreed, but was reluctant to go too far. She made some changes, but held back on some she thought were implicit to her vision. The agent let them pass. She was prepared to accept a third party judgement and compromise her vision to make the book publishable, but only so far, otherwise someone else is writing it and the fundamentals get lost. Sometimes compromise is as much part of 'artistic integrity' as refusing to budge.

    Last edited by Aly Fell; March 27th, 2012 at 12:52 PM. Reason: slepnilg
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  15. #38
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    Integrity is about lines. We all create lines which won't be crossed. The more of life one experiences the more information is had to create those lines. But all our lives are spent making lines and then re-adjusting them.

    I had an opportunity early on in my life to be a partner in an advertising firm. After some great soul searching I didn't do it (my would be partner is rich and retired now) because I made a line in the sand.

    No one can determine what another's lines will be but those with some experience can give advice about lines which we can take or leave. I happen to believe that artistic integrity can never be achieved if the dollar is the only goal.

    Copying another's hard earned style to make a buck might make you a buck in the short term, which may be needed to feed you or your family, but will not sustain you as an artist in the long run. Experience.

    I guess the artists and people I admire most are those who, even if it was the more difficult path, developed a unique voice through hard work and not crossing the lines they drew in the sand.

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  17. #39
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    So, how do you know when you're doing art? I was hired as an illustrator, but for having an art school background, I was asked to do everything from choosing the carpets for the administration building (yes, really) to multimedia programming (I wrote a buttload of code in my day) to 3D modeling. I built websites. I painted signage. Shoot, I taped overhead transparencies into frames and dyed word slides with Luma dyes. I did paste up and publication design. I also made illustrations by the hundreds, from cartoons to technical illustrations to oil paintings.

    Somebody's got to do that work, and some of it takes genuine artistic chops. I'm just not seeing where integrity comes into it. I liked the company I worked for and approved of its mission; I wouldn't have stayed with it otherwise. I did the best job I could.

    Oh, and for years, I'd come home at night and paint what I pleased and never show it to a soul. Does that art have extra special integrity? The fact that I pleased myself and I didn't think about the marketplace or the audience at all?

    p.s. Please tell me there's money in furry porn. I'm counting on it for my retirement fund.

    I was once on the receiving end of a critique so savagely nasty, I marched straight out of class to the office and changed my major (sketchbook).
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    i think it depends what hat youre wearing at the time; clients come in different shapes; companies who need branding, companies who need their brands expanding, cars that need bodykits, exhbition stands that need designing and printing, games companies that need assets, books that need covers, galleries that need stuff to put on their wall, private commissions, people you like and want to impress, people you dont like and want their crappy housing development job done quick snap, etc etc.

    obviously working for the nazis is crossing more than artistic integrity lines but ill do whatever the average client will pay me to do with zero guilt.
    a common brief is "we need a Porsche 911, but as a 15man team we cant afford the licencing of the real car. Can you make a car thats clearly got Porsche DNA but is different enough we dont annoy Porsche."
    to which I say yep no probs.

    one thing might be cutting corners; some clients just dont care if you reuse the same palm tree model 5000 times on their development renders, they just want an image yesterday, and thats fine.
    other people want every detail perfect and are willing to pay for it. also fine.

    in my own work, i guess the one rule is dont bore yourself. that encompasses ripping off stuff and saying it was your idea, but doesnt rule out making homages, cheeky nods, spiritual successors or fan art.

    thoughts?

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; March 27th, 2012 at 01:23 PM.
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  20. #41
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    [QUOTE=Velocity Kendall;3417042]i think it depends what hat youre wearing at the time; clients come in different shapes; companies who need branding, companies who need their brands expanding, cars that need bodykits, exhbition stands that need designing and printing, games companies that need assets, books that need covers, galleries that need stuff to put on their wall, private commissions, etc etc.

    obviously working for the nazis is crossing more than artistic integrity lines but ill do whatever the average client will pay me to do with zero guilt.
    a common brief is "we need a Porsche 911, but as a 15man team we cant afford the licencing of the real car. Can you make a car thats clearly got Porsche DNA but is different enough we dont annoy Porsche."
    to which I say yep no probs.
    QUOTE]

    I see that as a challenge not an ethical issue. THe ethics came in when it was decided to be close but not so close as to cause trouble. I think it would be differnt if say, you did a design which was in fact a porsche and spelled porsche without the 'E' in it, like those cheap knoockofs of Gucci bags in Times Square

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  21. #42
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    I think it would be differnt if say, you did a design which was in fact a porsche and spelled porsche without the 'E' in it, like those cheap knoockofs of Gucci bags in Times Square"

    Well, producing knock off merchandise is illegal so is moot unless youre willing to be a criminal.

    "THe ethics came in when it was decided to be close but not so close as to cause trouble.


    One lot I worked for said you had to make 15 signficant changes, ie so headlights, window, badge (obviously) DLO, grille, shutlines, etc but retain the essential Porscheness, which is largely a matter of the proportions.
    Ive no idea if thats an official legal guideline but thats how they seemed to feel about it.
    i called the porsche a Rohrl with an umlaut on the o by the way, after ace driver and porsche test pilot Walter Rohrl, which was a bit close to the bone but the names i give the things are just suggestions and the marketing people change them to whatever they like in the office.

    i should point out i would never ever describe myself as an artist, i see real art and know it for what it is, ie amazing but i like being a designer, for the reasons demonstrated in this short video



    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; March 27th, 2012 at 01:34 PM.
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  22. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aly Fell View Post
    Is it possible to be an atheist?
    There is no sensible reason in the world to make a great work of art.* And it is impossible to make a great work of art** without taking art seriously. Therefore, if you manage to make a great work of art, you did it out of belief that was unjustified on ordinary materialist grounds. Whether you want to call that ideology or religion doesn't matter to me because I consider the two words synonymous.

    *Since artists have become famous, rich or well-paid, well-regarded by peers, or have attained personal satisfaction by creating abject bullshit, none of these four values necessarily require excellent creations to achieve. That good work can go unrewarded is equally persuasive against the argument that material wealth necessarily results from excellent creation.

    **Bullshit art with a built-in cultural/political/monetary base that auto-establishes/decrees a value for it does not count.

    At least Icarus tried!


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  24. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoat View Post
    So, how do you know when you're doing art? I was hired as an illustrator, but for having an art school background, I was asked to do everything from choosing the carpets for the administration building (yes, really) to multimedia programming (I wrote a buttload of code in my day) to 3D modeling. I built websites. I painted signage. Shoot, I taped overhead transparencies into frames and dyed word slides with Luma dyes. I did paste up and publication design. I also made illustrations by the hundreds, from cartoons to technical illustrations to oil paintings.
    I don't make any distinction between art and illustration and I certainly don't make a distinction about the integrity of illustration. I have the highest regard for illustration. I do think some things have more creativity in them than others and I try and find work that has the most visual creativity I can get paid for.

    I'm not here to draw the line for other people. I just think that everyone should have a line and I'm curious what those lines are. I spelled out mine to show I have them.

    As for the being poor thing VK brought up, I've been poor most of my life
    and I am by no means rich now. I have some moderate success with my career but again I'm not in demand by name. When things have gotten tough for me I have worked in non art related jobs. I didn't take work that crossed my lines just cause I needed money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoat View Post
    So, how do you know when you're doing art? I was hired as an illustrator, but for having an art school background, I was asked to do everything from choosing the carpets for the administration building (yes, really) to multimedia programming (I wrote a buttload of code in my day) to 3D modeling. I built websites. I painted signage. Shoot, I taped overhead transparencies into frames and dyed word slides with Luma dyes. I did paste up and publication design. I also made illustrations by the hundreds, from cartoons to technical illustrations to oil paintings.

    Somebody's got to do that work, and some of it takes genuine artistic chops. I'm just not seeing where integrity comes into it. I liked the company I worked for and approved of its mission; I wouldn't have stayed with it otherwise. I did the best job I could.

    Oh, and for years, I'd come home at night and paint what I pleased and never show it to a soul. Does that art have extra special integrity? The fact that I pleased myself and I didn't think about the marketplace or the audience at all?

    p.s. Please tell me there's money in furry porn. I'm counting on it for my retirement fund.
    Oh, and for years, I'd come home at night and paint what I pleased and never show it to a soul. Does that art have extra special integrity? The fact that I pleased myself and I didn't think about the marketplace or the audience at all?
    No one can make that distinction but you. I think the point of this discussion is to see where other peoples' integrity lines are.

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    "I think the point of this discussion is to see where other peoples' integrity lines are."

    hey dont forget passive-aggressively inferring the 'other people' have less integrity than you, Bill Carman, thats clearly a key point too, or you wouldnt keep doing it

    And maybe we have found that illusive difference between an artist and an illustrator/designer/concept artist. As artist must have integrity or she/he is not an artist?

    as posted without irony on ConceptArt.Org forums...

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  29. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    "I think the point of this discussion is to see where other peoples' integrity lines are."

    hey dont forget passive-aggressively inferring the 'other people' have less integrity than you, Bill Carman, thats clearly a key point too, or you wouldnt keep doing it

    And maybe we have found that illusive difference between an artist and an illustrator/designer/concept artist. As artist must have integrity or she/he is not an artist?

    as posted without irony on ConceptArt.Org forums...
    Actually I want to know not because I think that 'other people"have less but if there is enough of a difference I can move my line a little, make more money and still sleep at night knowing that I'm in good company:-)

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  31. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    "I think the point of this discussion is to see where other peoples' integrity lines are."

    hey dont forget passive-aggressively inferring the 'other people' have less integrity than you, Bill Carman, thats clearly a key point too, or you wouldnt keep doing it

    And maybe we have found that illusive difference between an artist and an illustrator/designer/concept artist. As artist must have integrity or she/he is not an artist?

    as posted without irony on ConceptArt.Org forums...
    Actually I was referring to other discussions about illustration vs art. I do and have done many things. Illustration was the focus of my life for most of my professional life. In fact to this day I would rather be called an illustrator. This is the problem with written discussions, emails etc. Without inflection, context etc. people make leaps of judgement about other people without knowing them at all. I was just joining in a discussion and asking some questions.

    I would never passive-aggressively or even aggressively infer someone has less integrity than I when I don't know them. Maybe if you read the rest of my posts you'll see that I say that everyone needs to draw their own lines about integrity. I don't have much integrity except in my work.

    So, called to the carpet about something I didn't mean by someone I don't know.

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    I'd watch out VK. You might wake up one night with 40 of those little beasties Bill draws and paints sitting on your chest. People think he doesn't work from life, but they have to be fed... constantly.

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    The best thing about having conversations where we debate artistic integrity versus hacking, talent versus craft, professional versus amateur, deep art versus shallow art, and innate quality versus subjective response, is seeing just who gets mad as the lines get defined. There's always somebody who intuits that they just might be on the other side of the tracks, and when they finally react we get a bit of fireworks from their subconscious, like a "tell" in poker. It never fails.

    At least Icarus tried!


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    I'd copy someone else's style for free, so the money is arbitrary. Integrity to me, means having a set of principles that remain consistent. Doing quality work even when you don't feel like it, for example. Or having no excuses for mistakes. It also means not betraying your principles.

    But I don't think Rand was talking about style specifically. She was referring more to being self-consistent in one's virtues. As in, if you believe that you shouldn't borrow artistic vocabulary, then don't violate that for money. If you believe the opposite however, you're not of poor integrity to copy someone's style for money.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    I'd copy someone else's style for free, so the money is arbitrary. Integrity to me, means having a set of principles that remain consistent. Doing quality work even when you don't feel like it, for example. Or having no excuses for mistakes. It also means not betraying your principles.

    But I don't think Rand was talking about style specifically. She was referring more to being self-consistent in one's virtues. As in, if you believe that you shouldn't borrow artistic vocabulary, then don't violate that for money. If you believe the opposite however, you're not of poor integrity to copy someone's style for money.
    Hmm,

    I don't thinks so. In the book she lays out her case sets up the premise and shows you different characters along the way that fall short of her ideal and the price they all pay for it. She has the protagonist Howard Roark getting fired for resfusing to design a building in someone elses style which forces him to stop working as an architect for awhile. I mean its the core of the book, as an artist you have a unique voice that must be preserved to keep your integrity. (according to Rand)

    Last edited by dpaint; March 27th, 2012 at 08:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Hmm,

    I don't thinks so. In the book she lays out her case sets up the premise and shows you different characters along the way that fall short of her ideal and the price they all pay for it. She has the protagonist Howard Roark getting fired for resfusing to design a building in someone elses style which forces him to stop working as an architect for awhile.
    It seems like you're getting caught up in the analogy. He was fired for not violating what he believed in.

    I don't care in the long run, I just came to share my opinion. I like older fables better.

    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    ... and when they finally react we get a bit of fireworks from their subconscious, like a "tell" in poker. It never fails.
    Flinching of the id.

    Last edited by s.ketch; March 27th, 2012 at 08:27 PM.
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    "There's always somebody who intuits that they just might be on the other side of the tracks, and when they finally react we get a bit of fireworks from their subconscious, like a "tell" in poker. It never fails."

    See above re. passive-agressively inpuning the integrity of others St Kev.

    "I'd watch out VK. You might wake up one night with 40 of those little beasties Bill draws and paints sitting on your chest."

    hehe now thats my kind of furry porn

    "I was just joining in a discussion and asking some questions."

    my apologies for misinterpreting you.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; March 27th, 2012 at 10:13 PM.
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  42. #55
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    I forgot real media versus digital, actual drawing and painting versus 3-D renders or photographs, mimetic integrity versus "it's just my style", and composing a picture from top to bottom to have a total effect versus rendering a referenced figure on a more or less blank background and calling it a work of art.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    "There's always somebody who intuits that they just might be on the other side of the tracks, and when they finally react we get a bit of fireworks from their subconscious, like a "tell" in poker. It never fails."

    See above re. passive-agressively inpuning the integrity of others St Kev.
    I didn't impugn your integrity, you did.

    Last edited by kev ferrara; March 27th, 2012 at 11:34 PM.
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    hows that?

    ''seeing just who gets mad as the lines get defined.''

    the lines got defined as

    "And maybe we have found that illusive difference between an artist and an illustrator/designer/concept artist. As artist must have integrity or she/he is not an artist?"

    so i got mad. sounded to me like he was saying concept artists have no integrity. whatever integrity is, not having any was clearly bad. you cant write that on a site called Concept Art and not expect a response. how does that in any way amount to the sort of confession youve just suggested?

    actually, id like to hear your definition of integrity Kev. towering superiority complex aside your opinions are usually interesting, so go ahead, define your lines.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; March 27th, 2012 at 11:57 PM.
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    Viscosity Ken Doll,

    You're protesting too much. Just enjoy yourself. So you don't believe in artistic integrity. That's okay. Nobody is going to judge you for that here. Not everybody has to be an artist to work in the arts. It's cool man.

    At least Icarus tried!


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    Cute kevtard, but you didnt define those lines yet. just so i know exactly what it is i dont believe in, like.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; March 28th, 2012 at 12:15 AM.
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    Gosh Kev, you always gotta look down on people from your Titanium White tower.

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    I'll just ride through and poke at people a bit...I think Bill has a solid point about finding "A" line (maybe not "the" line, which probably couldn't be found) between the artist and illustrator/designer. Although I think it's perfectly valid to have integrity as a designer, concept artist, AD whatever as well...so I don't really buy that integrity is what defines the artist vs. illustrator/designer. Possibly it is as simple as what we do for ourselves vs. what we do for hire also (not that we don't enjoy doing work for others of course). For my own work I'm going to do what I want, the way I want to do it...anything else is fairly wide open, within personal limits of course.

    In your own, personal work, what level of integrity do you hold to? If you'll do whatever to make a buck, and you think that's ok, I guess you could feel you haven't compromised your integrity. I think that is the line dpaint is trying to discuss. He and I have both seen artists in our little landscape painting arena who completely sell out...worse than prostitutes because they hide behind this "artist" facade, or they're somehow painting "in homage" of someone else - at least a hooker is honest. I don't say they're a sell-out because they have a degree of success...it is the path they have chosen to that success that is so disapointing.

    You can also see it in illustration when an illustrator is mis-directed toward a style or type of work for which they are not really suited. I've recently seen a friend's work thoroughly compromised through this situation...I wish he would have said, "Yeah...would love to do it...my way" instead the work was completely inferior to his normal standard...and people noticed.

    Anyway, just my thoughts, not much poking I guess...not even sure it rates a clever nickname.

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