The "Paintings that Break Conventional Composition But Still Work" Thread - Page 3
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  1. #61
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    Kev, The word 'specific' is a crucial part of that sentence.
    I think you have missed it and therefore misunderstood it.

    Making sense is not dependent on morality.
    For a thing to be meaningful, it must make sense to the perpertrator, regardless of its moral interpretation by others.
    Likewise, in the arts:
    Ravel's harmony does not make sense in Bach's harmonic world. Rock music doesn't make sense performed in swing time.
    But they make sense within the strictures of the musical piece itself.
    If it didn't, it would have no meaning to those engaged in it.

    I'm in closer agreement about the business of 'good nonsense', but with a caveat so huge it probably means I disagree with you.
    Alice in Wonderland is an obvious and generally understood example of 'good nonsense'. The writings of Italo Calvino or Paul Auster are a little lesser known.
    But it only appears to be nonsense. (That is not meant to be as glib as it sounds!)
    Alice in Wonderland, and this illustrates my point perfectly, does make sensuous sense once digested. It feels complete, resolved. It is therefore sensuously meaningful.
    A painting that affects us deeply does not 'make sense' in any other way than this sensuous 'understanding' of its sense of resolution.

    Last edited by Chris Bennett; March 27th, 2012 at 02:08 PM.
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  3. #62
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    I did realize that "specific" was crucial to your meaning. I began to address the word specifically, but then realized the entire matter wasn't something I wanted to post about.

    While I agree that some otherwise irrational act can be seen as logical by the perpetrator, I don't believe I must subscribe to the perpetrator's characterization of that act.

    On your second point, I think you are again conflating coherence and consequence.

    On your third point, I think you are again conflating resolution (a form of coherence) with consequence.

    At least Icarus tried!


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  5. #63
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    We'll leave it there then.

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  6. #64
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    this is a fascinating discussion, i am carefully reading the past posts and digesting them, but some thoughts; sorry if they are deeply naive, ive never really vocalised my thoughts on this or read much about it, but its really got my attention..so

    i think its interesting for lots of reasons that 'rules' do seem to work, and that cleverly bending or breaking them also works. its interesting aesthetically and also in the same category of ways optical illussions are interesting.

    i have no idea how to define 'works' either, more than just personal opinion! it reminds me of terms like computability; the more you dig, the more it becomes fuzzy, at least on wikipedia!!
    and yet we all know when something works for us, what combination of flavours we find pleasing in the context of our own lives.

    "I was going to write something similar. I think we see banal compositions so often that any risk taking will be exciting enough to register as good."
    kev


    good point. these conventions are clearly reactions to earlier works that put things at the centre of the image for clarity for example, which later seemed naive. presumably this cycle repeats and recursively churns on itself down the centuries.

    it often seems like convention busting can be a goldmine of new ideas, like finding theres another room between the lounge and the kitchen you didnt realise was there... parenthjetically a common theme in dreams.. worlds entirely the creating of our minds.

    "Resolution would mean that whatever the ingredients of the work are, regardless of their apparent stylistic antagonism when taken seperately, they have been brought into accord by rules forged by conflict arising out of their inclusion."
    Chris

    Right, the rules of the game, or the laws of motion of the system change with the introduction of new components

    "You see that. The problem with drawing lines of composition is that I can draw fifty others that would relate to different stresses and shapes"

    it reminds me of telephone box leylines. one peusdoscientific theory of leylines used connected ancient archeological sites along suposedly significant geometric axes. the same thing is done to objects on the surface of mars.
    but it was also shown that geometry can also seemingly link arbitrary things like telephone boxes...
    on the other hand i really enjoy looking at Chris's paintings for example because he often includes cool 4 dimensional time slices and other devices which are fun to follow as intended.

    "

    "Yes, but those negotiated rules don't necessarily entail meaning or a communication worth making. Just visual harmony. Which is no more necessarily meaningful than saying that 3+1 = 2+2.....

    ...Whether math is self-evidently harmonic outside of human experience is one of those epistemology versus Platonist arguments that is ultimately unknowable. Architectonic harmony would fall under the same argumentative framework. All we can know for sure is that we find harmony harmonious"

    kev

    well put!
    personally I feel creating harmonious aesthetic choices is a hopeful thing to do; it is like encoding in your surroundings a signal that you are not an animal, you are a thinking being. you probably dont really care too much about the colour of the interior surfaces of survival-basic cave you stumble into for shelter at zero dark 30 from a forbidding mountainside, youre satisfying the top levels of Maslows pyramid.
    but making art or decorating ones home or cooking a tasty meal are all acts that say fuck you, the universe, entropy is temporarily being held back here.
    even that cave would look 100% better with some bits of stick youve set alight gently illuminating the ancient paintings on the walls of the cave you didnt notice before, and a snickers or three from your pack.
    and think of the carved stone in the desert; the king of kings futily trying to project his power down the centuries through art.

    i agree completely that harmonies have no intrinsic 'meaning' any more than the orbits of bodies tending to form resonant relationships naturally does, but by imposing harmonies on our creations we are imposing, however breifly, order and control and a measure of peace on them. its pissing on trees but also a deeper act that says I think as I act, I impose meaning for myself without needing it to be foisted on me by the world.



    now back to reading what you guys have said already, that i am doubtless either echoing, or have not thought of and will have to think more about!
    kev, bill, chris, your dialogue makes for very interesting reading

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; April 4th, 2012 at 12:34 AM.
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  8. #65
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    That's incredibly jarring. It's almost like looking at some kind of optical illusion.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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  9. #66
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    i steal ideas from that picture whenever im playing around with my own freetime work, literally constantly
    that and this one and The Running of the Six DGRXX, Megabeam, SpaceBall, Cavalcade to the Crimson Castle, orbital interior, and a few others


    have you noticed youre more open to doing stuff you like when really you should be doing that work youd said youd do for that guy on skype like 3 days ago?

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; April 4th, 2012 at 02:39 AM.
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  10. #67
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    I saw this painting and it made me think of this thread. This one is by Odd Nerdrum. The fact that the figure is so cut off, that there is so much negative space, and that our sense of gravity is thrown off by the fact that the figure is upside down makes it a very odd composition. But yet it looks great! Supposedly the piece was hung below a walk way and people looked down upon it.



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  11. #68
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    My Sketchbook

    And then God said, "Let us make man in our likeness and our image. Let us make him ridiculously hard to draw so that poor artists everywhere will have to spend 10,000+ hours failing repeatedly before they can begin to capture the form and likeness onto a two-dimensional surface." And there was man. And it was good. And artists everywhere lost their minds.
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  12. #69
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    don't use diagonals to point to nothing






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  13. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len53Pan View Post
    don't use diagonals to point to nothing




    Why not?

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  14. #71
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcarman View Post
    Why not?
    Because if you do, /

    At least Icarus tried!


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  15. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Because if you do, /
    Pointing to God and the Devil respectively.

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  16. #73
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    In between the known and the unknown... are the Doors...

    At least Icarus tried!


    My Process: Dead Rider Graphic Novel (Dark Horse Comics) plus oil paintings, pencils and other goodies:
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