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  1. #1
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    Gov' Planning a Possible Military Draft in 2005?

    A friend sent me this link this morning, and wants me to help spread the word. This affects a major chunk of the members of this forum including myself, and I just wanted to hear others thoughts on the subject.

    http://www.congress.org/congressorg/...ua_congressorg
    stuff


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  3. #2
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    Hey, it happens.
    I had to sign up when I turned 18 "back in the day"
    It was scarey but we did it anyway.

    Hopefully it won't happen...

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    I think everyone has to sign up still at 18. I had to send in a little post card with some personal info on it for voting/draft and that was just 4 years ago. I remeber not wanting to send it in but my parents made me because of all the legal trouble i could get in that was printed on the back.

  5. #4
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    that was registering for selective service in case they decided to reinstate the draft. i guess we all should become citizens of another country, i think that conscientious objectors can still be drafted and forced to work. i just dont think they get guns

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    ah thats right seb haha thanks Still the same thing as signing up for the draft.

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    I'm 31 and The draft age says it's 18-26...but it wont matter they could still draft men that are older for thier leadership skills. Once you sign with selective services (which is required by law) they can choose whomever they want, especially those with degree's. Anyone with previous military experience can be reinstated.

    this little diddy was interesting...

    Dodging the draft will be more difficult than those from the Vietnam era.

    College and Canada will not be options. In December 2001, Canada and the U.S. signed a "smart border declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in. Signed by Canada's minister of foreign affairs, John Manley, and U.S. Homeland Security director, Tom Ridge, the declaration involves a 30-point plan which implements, among other things, a "pre-clearance agreement" of people entering and departing each country. Reforms aimed at making the draft more equitable along gender and class lines also eliminates higher education as a shelter. Underclassmen would only be able to postpone service until the end of their current semester. Seniors would have until the end of the academic year
    South is looking good...
    Last edited by ChadTHX1138; May 25th, 2004 at 04:11 PM.
    Chad Townsend
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  8. #7
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    here in sweden we have something thats called "mönstring" and its basicly a couple of test's to see if your fit enough or have some medical conditions so you can get into the millitary, if you pass all tests if you want or not your going into the service for a couple of months.



    I did the tests and found out that im half deaf,a dumbass and was really unfit. So no millitary service for me

  9. #8
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    Oddly enough, it was introduced by a Democrat in the intent to make it more reluctant to declare war. Of course, even though I dislike Bush too, Bush is immediately blamed for it.

    http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/

    We probably don't have to worry.

    -toasty

  10. #9
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    "to provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons [age 18--26] in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes."
    This is what I found interesting. It doesn't sound like a draft to me but more like mandatory service, military or civil, for every person of those ages, similar to the mandatory military service of places like Israel. (I'm sure the Bush twins don't have to worry though, there's always the Texas National Guard...and they don't even have to show up :p) You know, I've been meaning to visit Brazil for a while...

  11. #10
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    Ah, mandatory national service! Doesn't the US have enough soldiers already? (We have this in our country, but that's because there're just too few people will to become soldiers voluntarily.)
    ...+1 exp

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    I wouldn't mind a mandatory service. I have no problem giving back for all the things I've been freely given.

    As for the draft...it's a free ticket across the world, right? I've been watching Band of Brothers (history channel, mondays at 9 pst) and talked to a couple WW2 vets, i almost feel like I'm missing something by not going someplace to fight somebody...don't get me wrong, killing in general is a bad thing, but who could argue with killing Nazis? It's the ultimate right thing to do. If nazi's had been around back in the day, the good samaritan parable would have been about how some dude killed nazi's when everyone else wouldnt..

  13. #12
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    I'm curious about the "mandatory civil service" thing. Would that include giving time in something like the Peace Corps or working in the Red Cross?

  14. #13
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    I'm curious about the "mandatory civil service" thing. Would that include giving time in something like the Peace Corps or working in the Red Cross?
    Nah, it would have to be a governmental thing I'm sure.

    Jetpack, the problem is it's not as simple as killing Nazis these days, it's killing people to protect billionaire's profits (not to mention it's more about stopping the Nazis than killing them). With the exception of Kosovo, we don't get involved in things that we don't have a monetary stake in. And as far as a free ticket across the world, the problem is your return ticket might be in a box. I don't wanna start an argument, but in my opinion, anyone enthusiastic about going off to fight doesn't understand the value of life, the "enemy's" life or their own. (and as far as Band of Brothers goes, I haven't seen it, but I would probably recommend Born on the Fourth of July instead for a look at war)
    Last edited by SeraphSword; May 26th, 2004 at 03:28 AM.

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    I saw this article a few days ago and it rather freaked me out. I did some research, and it seems like the supposed "28-million dollar increase in the SSS budget" is actually misrepresented. I looked and looked for the 2003 or earlier budgets to compare their figures, and I couldn't find them. I did find the 1996 budget, and it was 22.93 million. Unless the SSS budget has dropped to zero since 1996, it certainly didn't raise a whole 28 million last year. I think that people saw that break down of SSS goals and their costs (which apparently is reported on in a similar fasion every year - though I couldn't find them -or any budget information- for earlier years) and thought that these were new goals and the 28-million dollar budget is on top of whatever they got in previous years, but that isn't true. Read it, all the wording points to that simply being the entire budget for the SSS, not an amount of increase.

    I called the office of Senator Nelson (who's from my home state and is on the commitee this bill is currently sitting in) to ask where he stands on it and where I can find previous year's SSS budget info online. The aide was rather suprised when I mentioned a new draft and had to go running off to ask - he thought a draft bill must be a rumor. (hah!) After once again running off to ask someone, he told me I could find SSS budget info on the Department of Defense website, but I didn't have time to go digging through. If anyone else is curious and finds that info, please post a link!

    My point is that every article I've read either saying the draft is coming, or saying that there will be no draft because of this and that has misrepresented the facts in some way. It's good to check into these things for yourself, because it's suprising what people will publish out of ignorance or malice. The issue is definitely one to keep an (informed) eye on.

  16. #15
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    Originally posted by jetpack42
    As for the draft...it's a free ticket across the world, right? I've been watching Band of Brothers (history channel, mondays at 9 pst) and talked to a couple WW2 vets, i almost feel like I'm missing something by not going someplace to fight somebody...don't get me wrong, killing in general is a bad thing, but who could argue with killing Nazis? It's the ultimate right thing to do. If nazi's had been around back in the day, the good samaritan parable would have been about how some dude killed nazi's when everyone else wouldnt..
    Not to turn this into a political debate, and I'm not even bringing up the country's current situation in the Middle East, but you do realize that a lot of the people that were considered nazis were just german citizens who were made to fight by their government, right? certainly, there were really awful things that happened at the hands of german soldiers, and nazism/fascism as a whole is a disgusting concept, but the war by and large was fought by the people who had no choice but to fight. Hitler had to be stopped, but I doubt it was fun and "cool" to turn other human beings into corpses, and probably felt like the ultimate wrong thing to do.

  17. #16
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    I'm not going to break WW2 down onto millions of individual cases.

    Don't make me use the "Hey, he started it" arguement either.

    I think it's pretty safe to say that in the 1940's, killing nazi's was not only a good thing, but it was the RIGHT thing to do. Joking aside...War IS a serious thing, but sometimes it's the only thing to do. Its a pretty naive look on life to say "all killing is bad". Killing is never nice, but sometimes its necessary. I am extremely respectful of any vets, from WW2 to the present time.

    I notice both of your boths decry killing, but mention Hitler and the Nazi's had to be "stopped". How do you kill an enemy who will stop at nothing to kill you? People tried multiple times to appease Hitler and negotiate, and he just kept advancing on countries and killing millions of innocent people.

    I'm curious, as to the monetary stake of some of our engagements, mainly veitnam. Honestly, I'm ignorant as to this point of the issue...

    One of the questions I often think about too, in regards to this modern war on terror...How do you deter an enemy who is willing to kill himself to kill you?

    This is the end of my posting in this thread, unless anyone has anything to discuss about the last 2 paragraphs. I'm always up for intellegent discussion, esp about politics and such. I don't get much of that any more, and I really miss it. I'm always up to learn what I don't know.

  18. #17
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    Originally posted by SeraphSword
    And as far as a free ticket across the world, the problem is your return ticket might be in a box. I don't wanna start an argument, but in my opinion, anyone enthusiastic about going off to fight doesn't understand the value of life, the "enemy's" life or their own. (and as far as Band of Brothers goes, I haven't seen it, but I would probably recommend Born on the Fourth of July instead for a look at war)
    Thousands, Millions, of american soldiers have gone off and come back in pine boxes. Thats just reality, and if thats what I'm destined for, I'm not going to sweat it. Its been done many times before by men much greater then me, and I aspire to thier resolve, bravery, and selflessness if put in that situation. You are right, myself, and probably 95% of the people on this board don't know the true meaning of life or death, beyond what can be read in a book or dreamed.

    I didn't say I was going to rush down to the Army recruiting office and sign up for a chance to bag some arabs in Iraq. I was saying I'd view being "forced to fight, via the draft" in a positive light. A chance to see more of the world (I've never been out of the US, except having gone to canada, and, God-willing, I'll never go back.), a chance to learn something I'd never have the opportunitiy to learn, a chance to relate to my ancestors, and the people who formed this country. A chance to give back to my country. A chance to see how other people live. A chance to truely be thankful for what I have, and see how fortunate I really am. I might get the opportunity to see how, in similar situations, I'd stack up against real heroes (not gods of the gridiron, or whatever stupid sham sports always pretends to be).
    True, it's likely going to be ugly.
    True, I might die.
    I'm just saying, if drafted, I'd willingly go. I hope I don't come across as ignorant and bloodthirsty.

    Rarely is there great gain without some risk.

    Really, I could go on and on...

    OK...NOW I'm done.

  19. #18
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    Anyone here like the Arlo Guthrie song "Alice's Restaraunt" ?it's a good tale about the draft during the Vietnam war...

    The Nazi's marched on the world and litterally attacked many nations and the only choice was to fight back.

    Osama made an attack on us that has been said was much worse than Pearl Harbor (I dont know for a fact I wasnt there or alive during Pearl Harbor) We went after Osama...The Terror threat.

    The threat was used as an exscuse to go Fight on a different front...an older threat. The threat of Saddam was there but he didnt attack the nations of the world like Hitler... but we attacked Saddam...and his people...so they feel as threatened by us as we did when we were attacked in WWII.

    I feel we needed to take Saddam out of power and I support our troops...but I dont have to like it.
    Chad Townsend
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    asdf

    YAY! counter-strike in real life!!!

    ok all joking aside. I don't like war. I know that it is not possable to have peace without war (kinda a paradox, eh?) but it should be a last resolve. American soldiers are dieing needlessly in the middle east right now, and I am not going to get killed so a few billionaires can keep their money.

    and if the governor/president (whoever sets the draft up) reinstatesthe draft..i hope he doesn't expect to be elected again.

  21. #20
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    Yaaaayyy!!
    More money for mandatory military service programs that will galvanize a permanent consumption demand by the U.S. government for weapons systems and allow defense contractors to sell more expendable hardware to increase their profit margins, facilitated by the military industrial complex that owns part of the media, shrinking public education so they can sell their fear campaigns to an increasingly out of touch, reactionary public who are coerced to believe the media who tells us who the enemy is and who’s owners sell weapons in order to kill those enemies!

    Sign me up.
    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?

  22. #21
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    jetpack- I can understand your inclination towards patriotism, but just don't let it be nationalism. Killing Nazis is good if it's the only option, but every other option needs to be exhausted first. That's just part of being the good guys--you have to fight the absolute best fight, even if it's harder to win that way. My point is that, yeah, if our entire way of life as we know it in America were somehow in jeopardy because of some guy n Iraq, than fine, go fight. But I certainly would not allow myself to be used in an occupation. Look, we wouldn't let the French come in and shoot us up and tell us how to live, even if they did depose a convicted war criminal like George Bush Sr. (according to the war tribunal at the Hague; needless to say he doesn't leave the country much) and claim they were 'reconstructing' our economy. I don't mean to grandstand, but we're not fighting for our defense there. All those contractors being kidnapped and killed? They work for Halliburton, the only contractor allowed in Iraq now (where's the germans and french and everyone else who opposed our invasion?). Their getting most of those profits that should be fueling Iraq's new capitalist economy or whatever G.B. Inc. has planned. we just have no business being there.

    Oops, too long, now I'll get skimmed.

    Criticism is the best form of patriotism.

  23. #22
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    Originally posted by jetpack42

    I notice both of your boths decry killing, but mention Hitler and the Nazi's had to be "stopped". How do you kill an enemy who will stop at nothing to kill you? People tried multiple times to appease Hitler and negotiate, and he just kept advancing on countries and killing millions of innocent people.
    First off, I was commenting more on what you said than the validity of world war 2.

    What I meant was that the people who fought the fight (both for Hitler and everyone else) were the pawns, under the control of their governing nation. I'm not saying that the war was unnecessary, or trying to diminish the sacrifice of the soldiers. I don't believe that all killing is bad, and it's part of war. The way you phrased it, though, completely removed the fact that these were human beings that our country fought. That doesn't place your statement too far from the ideals that Hitler and Nazism stood for. Despite what these people believed, they were still human. As MDuckett stated, killing Nazis wasn't the goal, it was stopping Hitler. While plenty of people died to achieve this goal, it doesn't mean that death WAS the goal.

  24. #23
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    Helium, 10 bucks says most people's brain shut off half-way through that sentence. Funny shit though.

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    What good would a draft do anyway? With groups like Mothers of America making sure that the US military is as ineffective as possible, there is little point in pursuing any further military goals as far as the US is concerned. Go merc, get paid better!

    bat
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    Sans la colère. Sans la haine. Et sans la pitié.

    I always find myself instinctively arrayed on the side of the barbarian, against the powers of organized civilization. -- Robert E. Howard

    Writer, illustrator and artist.

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    This war pisses me off incredably. The administration's handling of everything from tactics, to inteligence to troop dispersment is a complete disgrace to the the American people. How is it in the first place that we can be told that we have undeniable proof for the existance of weapons of mass destruction, find nothing and not hold Bush accountable? Civilian deaths in Iraq are estimated to be between 9153 and 11010... All because someone here screwed up? If it was any other world leader, the US would be quick to condemn them. I'd even go as far as to say that Bush knew his own evidence was weak when he'd changed our objective from Iraqi disarmorment to "Iraqi freedom." The public at large loves stuff like that.

    Further more, drawing false ties between Iraq and Al-Quaida is another thing that pisses me off. There was no proof whatsoever for this yet the war in Iraq is now synonymous with the war on "Terror". Bush is manipulating the anger over 9/11 to his cause, making any Arab who looks at us funny a priority target. In doing so, is creating another Isreal here. He's waged a war that will be perpetuated by vendetta. We blow them up, they swear revenge and blow something of ours up, we retaliate and so on.

    Bottom line: I'll never fight for Bush ever.
    Last edited by N D Hill; May 27th, 2004 at 02:40 PM.

  27. #26
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    what I read this morning was that terrorists are supposed to be doing some kind of major attack on us soil by the end of the year. i know i have read this kind of thing before..but this one seems a little more real.

    after the bombings in spain..it seems like they are back on track again. really, it would be nice if all of this large scale terrorism crap would just end already. and if a draft helps end it faster...then bring on the draft. we already dipped our toes in...we might as well dive all the way in.

    i do not know a whole lot about iraq, i mean, i havent been there myself. i have seen a lot of liberal and conservative views on the whole thing...but i wouldnt really want to pass too much judgement on it without having seen it for myself. and the people talking about billionaires keeping their money or something..ahh.....well i will just leave it at that...ahh...

    the one thing i found really interesting was how the draft bill includes women. would women make up 50% of those drafted? i wouldnt think so..but it just seemed off to me that women were included. i am not sexist..but..forcing women to fight? i dont know if i like the idea so much. because it is different from drafting a man. much different.

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    exo- you have good reason to be pissed off about the war, more people should be. It's barely even classifiable as a war. Our troops are dying left and right for what? What are we trying to prove? at this point it is that we were right all along, that we didn't screw up and that we're not in over our heads. it's about saving face. no, I wouldn't risk my life to save someone else's reputation, especially G.w.B's. There was obviously no 'wmds' in Iraq. We would know exactly what Saddam had because we gave it to him. Former head of the CIA George Bush (sr) set the guy up. We couldn't test our mustard gas, but slip em to an expansion-minded warlord and see how they work. You're right about 'iraqi freedom,'if we were over there for their best interest, we'd do what they want and leave. and about the false parallels? right again. bin Laden wanted the Iraqi people to rise up against Saddam. Looks like we helped him out there.

    bat- not sure what you mean by civilian groups making the military ineffective. I'd say by exo's stats above we're quite capable of killing mass amounts of people. that's what an army does anyway...right?

    grinn- there will *never* be and end to terrorism. that word doesn't even mean the same thing any more. now it just means 'bad guys.' how do you think we won our freedom from britain in 1770's? Guerrilla warfare. the same that any weaker army uses to depose a stronger military power. Iraq, mogadishu, vietnam. If we want to kill all the terrorists, we better jump over to Ireland and get the IRA. See, sometimes the terrorists are fighting for freedom (note: no parallels to the IRA here). Who are we to judge? We lost all credibility and our higher moral ground when we let our troops abuse soldiers in Abu Ghraib. Sure it's war, it happens, blah blah. Just don't take pictures and put it on the net. OUr business is done, well, our *business* is doing quite well, but our rationale for being there is done.

    Okay, I think I'm out of sarcasm.

    -matt

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    SeraphSword, thanks, too bad all that funny stuff is so unfunilly true. I second your recommendation of Born on the Fourth of July. I was at a rally recently where Ron Kovic spoke.. he's fantastic.
    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed, The world in arms is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

    ...I have a sketchbook?

  30. #29
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    Originally posted by MDuckett
    exo- you have good reason to be pissed off about the war, more people should be. It's barely even classifiable as a war. Our troops are dying left and right for what? What are we trying to prove? at this point it is that we were right all along, that we didn't screw up and that we're not in over our heads. it's about saving face. no, I wouldn't risk my life to save someone else's reputation, especially G.w.B's.
    you're absolutely right. This war has been completely misunderstood by everyone I fear. Unlike WWII, Korea or even Vietnam, we have not declared war on a recognised nation with it's army of inlisted soldiers. These soldiers have no name, rank and serial number or any legal obligations to the Geneva convention. They are civilians that have been socialized in such a way that they believe that the most righteous of causes is to die for Allah. Our enemy has no collective authority that exists in the form of an actual military leader. People here seem to have the impression that once we have Bin-Laden, the war will end and "terrorists" will all just call it quits. Like I said earlier, their war isn't inspired by politics but by vendetta and the heaven they aspire to achieve in "martyrdom." We won't win this war by turning over every stone and smoking out all the badguys. That'll only create new badguys. If the US wants to impose it's own moral standards on everyone else, we should do so by example in order to make others want to strive to become free. Not by shoving our ideals down their throats. The fact that our so-called leaders could be so blind to that irony is simply amazing.

    Needless to say, we have a lot of work to do.

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    Interesting posts here.


    Originally posted by Exo


    Not by shoving our ideals down their throats. The fact that our so-called leaders could be so blind to that irony is simply amazing.

    I doubt that the US gov. is blind to that irony. More likely, this war they started on Iraq is never about american ideals in the first place. Revenge, saving face, oil, power...those are the likely reasons many people outside of the USA believe now. Of course, Bush and Co. will try to convince everyone that its about liberation and freedom and ridding the world of evil. That certainly sounds much better than their real reasons.

    But despite everything, I doubt that Bush and Rumsfeld will be brought to justice. That's the benefit of great power. Lots of leeway to commit atrocities without needing to be held accountable.
    ...+1 exp

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