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Thread: Gay Marriage

  1. #181
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    The WA State legislature recently legalized gay marriage.

    So far in the States, whenever gay marriage has been put to a popular vote it has failed.

    The process starts again here in WA:

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...arriage14.html

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    I wonder why it always fails the pop vote.

    Is everyone voting and the majority is against?
    Are those for not turning up to vote in large enough numbers?
    Are those against making more of an effort to vote?

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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    I wonder why it always fails the pop vote.

    Is everyone voting and the majority is against?
    Are those for not turning up to vote in large enough numbers?
    Are those against making more of an effort to vote?
    It fails for the reason politicians like President Obama (who want to be re-elected) express their support for "civil unions" and go out of their way to spell out their opposition to "gay marriage"-- the "general will" of the American electorate is simply against gay marriage.

    IMO, gay marriage activists don't care about this. Ultimately, I think, they're trying to pick a fight that will be determined by SCOTUS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    It fails for the reason politicians like President Obama (who want to be re-elected) express their support for "civil unions" and go out of their way to spell out their opposition to "gay marriage"-- the "general will" of the American electorate is simply against gay marriage.

    IMO, gay marriage activists don't care about this. Ultimately, I think, they're trying to pick a fight that will be determined by SCOTUS.
    Might be that Anti-Gay marriage voters are more active than the majority. I can see a large number of people not turning out in favor of gay marriage because its not that big an issue to them. Silent Majority!

    Also I don't remember Obama being opposed to gay marriage, he's been largely silent on that issue and at times has said things that sound like he might be in favour of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stgodd View Post
    I see homosexuality as a disorder in the same way dyslexia, epilepsy or aspergers are disorders. In an Ideal biological state the human body isnt meant to be like this but these issues shouldnt effect the individuals rights in any way.
    Humans vary genetically a great deal. There is no prototype human that all other humans are meant to be like. Whether any given trait is a "disorder" or not depends entirely on the environment. For example, dyslexia would hardly be a disorder in a population that doesn't read, no? You wouldn't even be able to tell who was dyslexic or not. Asperger's might not be a problem in a community where people don't communicate face-to-face much or where communication is more formal. On the other hand, if you were born with pale skin in equatorial Africa before the time of sunblock that could easily be called a disorder. It's all entirely dependent on context.

    I mean, once we start looking at "disorders" we start finding that no one is this magical Platonic person on whom all other people are based. I've got astigmatism. I'm pretty sure that would have gotten me eaten by very blurry wolves back in our prehistoric past. But hey -- I've worn glasses all my life, my "disorder" doesn't affect me much and I don't wander around emoing about how I'm a freak of nature (even though I totally am). And that goes for everybody else I know too. We're all fucked up, so stop angsting and start thinking of ways in which you're going to pass your genes on. You can't separate genetics from environment, and right now we have an environment where your "disorder" doesn't have to be one. Not taking advantage of this would be like me refusing to wear glasses because they're not natural and that would be really fucking dumb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    So far in the States, whenever gay marriage has been put to a popular vote it has failed.
    If human rights were up to a "popular" democratic vote then this would probably still be the norm to some degree.

    Rights simply do not need to be voted on. Democracy fails in that aspect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThabisoMhlaba View Post


    Also I don't remember Obama being opposed to gay marriage, he's been largely silent on that issue and at times has said things that sound like he might be in favour of it.
    Wrong! By his own words (and by the "standards" expressed in this thread) he's a Bible-thumping bigot mouthing double-speak about "civil unions":



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    President Obama has said that his view of gay marriage is "evolving." I expect it will "evolve" fully after the coming election.


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    In Australia the overwhelming majority of people support gay marriage, yet both major political parties oppose it. Its kind of astonishing that the more progressive and left wing political party is insisting on an unpopular and right wing position, and now they are almost certain to lose the next election, leaving the country to be run by Tony Abbott, a far rightwing nutjob commonly referred to as "the mad monk". Its so bloody depressing to watch all hope for progressive politics slowly committing sepuku for no good reason.

    Anyway, anyone feel like having their faith in humanity lowered significantly + to vomit in your mouth repeatedly? Behold:

    100 real homophobic tweets

    I say we give up on this planet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    the "general will" of the American electorate is simply against gay marriage.
    But that isn't the only valid explanation. People don't show up to polls. Vocal groups aren't always organized. Maybe fear of having Elton John parading up and down Mainstreet USA scares the Connies into voting. Maybe the Dems are so cocksure of their progressive views that they feel people will just magically fall into line and it will become legal so they don't put as much effort into voting. Of course you could very well be right and even though everyone voices their opinion the majority simply don't buy into Lady Gaga songs.

    I'm interested in the grand explanation, not just the results of a poll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    So far in the States, whenever gay marriage has been put to a popular vote it has failed.
    Putting minority rights up to majority vote is a terrible idea, but the tide is turning, and in many places has already turned. In California for instance, home of the infamous Proposition 8, polls now show a healthy majority in favor of it. There is a domino effect, as gay marriage comes to more and more states and the effects (or rather, absolute lack of effects) are seen, it becomes normalized.


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    Well, my grasp of "social contract theory" is entirely rusty. But, the manner in which I'm (probably) mangling the concept of the "general will" is that it manifests itself not in how members of society feel about an issue, but, rather in the result of citizens and their institutions in bringing about the laws as they exist at any given time: referendums that allow direct citizen creation of law; representation through legislators who are subject to the whim of the voters; the rulings of appellate courts-- the justices being installed by politicians chosen by voters; and the actions or inactions of the elected executive (president/governor) in challenging or enforcing given laws, e.g. DADT or the dismal enforcement of our immigration laws ("honored in the breach" as they are).

    Thus, given that "sodomy" was not "legalized" by SCOTUS until the early 21st century tells us much about where our society is at on the matter of gay rights, let alone gay marriage:

    "Bowers v. Hardwick, 478 U.S. 186 (1986), is a United States Supreme Court decision that upheld, in a 5-4 ruling, the constitutionality of a Georgia sodomy law criminalizing oral and anal sex in private between consenting adults when applied to homosexuals.[1][2] Seventeen years after Bowers v. Hardwick, the Supreme Court directly overruled the decision in Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003), and held that such laws are unconstitutional. In overruling Bowers v. Hardwick, the 2003 Court stated that "Bowers was not correct when it was decided, and it is not correct today."

    (from Wikipedia).

    Last edited by Kamber Parrk; March 14th, 2012 at 09:29 PM.
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    "the president - last year's Nobel Peace Prize winner - has waded in to say she will never support laws recognising homosexual rights..
    Then the former first lady, Jewel Taylor, whose husband Charles Taylor is on trial for war crimes at an UN-backed court sitting in The Hague, entered the fraNow a senator for the opposition, she has launched a bid to toughen anti-gay laws.
    Homosexual acts at the moment are punishable by one year in jail under the country's sodomy laws; she is proposing making it a felony for same-sex couples to be in a relationship, which would carry a 10-year sentence.

    For Mr Kamara's family it has also been a difficult time - he says his daughter has been expelled from school "because she bears my last name".
    But showing me around the debris of the seaside house where his mother once lived, Mr Ponpon said they would not give up.
    "

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17380950

    Im glad I dont live there, what a bunch of cunts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17380950

    Im glad I dont live there, what a bunch of cunts
    Rather ironic that the country is named Liberia...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    Wrong! By his own words (and by the "standards" expressed in this thread) he's a Bible-thumping bigot mouthing double-speak about "civil unions":

    He removed the policy that bans gays from participating in the US army. I would think that he has or is starting to have the right idea.

    Either way I think having a religious president tends to cause silly issues such as oppression of gay rights, so I hope the US gives an Atheist President a shot in the future. It does, however, seem unlikely for the time being.

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    Guess I'll randomly post my thoughts.

    I'm a Christian, grew up in conservative family and all that. I'm really not sure what to make of homosexuality. Growing up I was raised to believe it was a sin, but now I'm not really sure. There are Bible verses like, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Obviously death is not an appropriate penalty, and would indicate that these laws were only appropriate for a certain culture. The bottom line is that you can interpret it however you jolly well feel like.

    When I was younger I thought of it like this: I recognize it's a biological thing, but the thing is, everything is biological. Growing up I had a tendency to lie. Call it the result of human depravity if you will, but you could also say it was a result of my chemical makeup. When someone murders someone else, it's due to chemical reactions that have possibly built off of certain biological traits and certain circumstances. Just because it's in someone's nature to be violent doesn't make it right. It's a trait they have to learn to overcome. And just because it's in someone's nature to be homosexual doesn't make it right, or so was my thinking when I was younger. Looking back on that train of thought now it seems ripe to be picked apart and I'm sure you're all shaking your heads in disgust. To clarify again, that was highschool, go-to-church-every-sunday me.

    Bottom line though is that I don't really know. Honestly it doesn't really matter, because only I am accountable to live according to my beliefs, and this issue isn't something I personally have to deal with.

    Just to make it clear, I absolutely believe that gay marriage should be legal, and I would certainly never treat gays any differently than a straight person. I just don't know whether it's a "sin" by the standards of a Christian God (which I'm guessing most of you don't give a shit about), not that it matters to me because it's none of my business. Either way, I would never expect someone else to live their lives according to my beliefs.

    So yeah, hope you enjoyed the ramblings of an ignorant, intolerant, bible-thumping redneck christian. Probably would have been better not to post, lol. But what fun would that be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liffey View Post
    There are Bible verses like, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Obviously death is not an appropriate penalty, and would indicate that these laws were only appropriate for a certain culture.
    Those laws aren't appropriate for ANY culture.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    Those laws aren't appropriate for ANY culture.
    Yeah. What I need to find out though is whether various writers of the Bible wrote certain laws with the context of the current culture already in place. Sort of a "Well, you're 100% fucked up right now, let's start by getting you down to 90%" thing. Who knows what part of modern culture will be seen as vile 1000 years from now (well, maybe it's not that hard to guess). These things only get resolved one step at a time.

    Of course if that were true then you have to ask why did they start off by abolishing homosexuality rather than starting off by abolishing the death penalty.

    Sometimes I'm uncomfortable with the amount of faith I have.

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    I'm of a mindset that a good compromise leaves no one entirely happy. Let the religious people have the word "marriage". It's just a word when all is said and done. It can define man and woman.. It can even be defined by being joined in a church, before God.. That's what they want it to stand for? Fine. Done.

    .. But I then don't think they have any right to define (or deny) the rights of two people joined under another word (like civil union or something more snazzy if they can think it up) that affords them the same rights as 'marriage' by state laws. It's not bothering them at that point. If they still find it threatening on another level for another reason, that's something they have to deal with at that point. Under the constitution, if two people want to be together and they're not hurting anyone else.. I just don't see why it should be illegal. People should all have the same rights in this country regardless of religion, sexual orientation, color.. Whatever. It shouldn't matter.

    The gays get to be together and have all their rights acknowledged legally, the religious (or other people who seem to have a problem with it) people keep the word marriage (that apparently means so much to them - not that a lot of straight people haven't already made a mockery of that word anyway). Nobody is perfectly happy with the outcome, but everyone takes a step forward in getting what they want.

    There's supposed to be a separation of church and state and this is really the only compromise that I can see possibly working, to be honest.. Though, truth be told, I find the fact that this whole thing is SUCH a hot issue to be sort of ridiculous.. To me it's a no brainer.

    The way I see it is this (from a purely Christian standpoint, because that's how I was brought up): There was the Old Testament and then there was the New Testament. Jesus came and broke all the rules.. He was friends with all the people the religious people condemned. He did away with a lot of the stuff that was traditionally considered "right or wrong".. He said don't judge and just love thy neighbor. As far as I'm concerned, if God has a problem with something, he'll deal with it. (He certainly has the resources to do so.) Until then, I'm just supposed to be good to my fellow man and not be hateful or judgmental. (Or at least try my best to not be.. Sometimes it's easier said than done!)

    I just find it so funny with the religious opposition to this issue. I mean, being gay doesn't even make God's top ten list for sin. How many of these people disrespected their parents growing up? "Honor Thy Mother And Father" - That sin actually MADE that list. (Or the people who cheat on their spouses? Or envy something else someone has? Or even work on Sunday? Etc.) So, by that logic, they're going to hell quicker than the gay people are? 'Cause they can't argue that God didn't know that gays would be an issue when he made that list; God is omnipotent and knows everything past, present, and future. Obviously it wasn't huge on his scope of potential problems so why does it have to be such an issue for humans? You'd think that most religions, which preach good deeds and kindness, would be happy for people that want to share love with each other and celebrate being with someone for the rest of their lives. (And I don't mean this all in a disrespectful/mocking way about religion, even though that's probably how it comes off. It all honestly perplexes me.. I really just don't get it.)

    Regardless of whatever my opinion is, I hope I'm never so closed-minded that I refuse listen to other people's views on things. An opinion is just an opinion.. It doesn't make it any more right or valid than anyone else's when all is said and done. An opinion isn't a fact -- I think a lot of people fail to recognize that and that's where we seem run into problems. (Though, when all is said and done I'm amazed that this thread (though some posts have been a bit.. ridiculous..) has been fairly civil. That's kind of impressive for the internet. I was kind of expecting a total flame war when I started going through this.)

    Enough with this wall of text - I said my two cents on the issue, time to go do art. (Or my lame approximation of it. Gotz a long way to go with teh learninz' yet! XD)

    Last edited by Riley Stark; March 19th, 2012 at 09:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavel Sokov View Post
    He removed the policy that bans gays from participating in the US army. I would think that he has or is starting to have the right idea.

    Either way I think having a religious president tends to cause silly issues such as oppression of gay rights, so I hope the US gives an Atheist President a shot in the future. It does, however, seem unlikely for the time being.
    Funny, nobody's asked the Afghanis how they feel about this-- despite the BILLIONs of dollars we're spending to win their hearts and minds.

    "Hey, Karzai, dontcha think is great that gay Marines will now help protect your people from the Taliban?"

    [crickets chirping in void created by U.S. media self-censorship via cognitive dissonance. . . ]

    If we're going to use violence to carve out "democracy" in foreign lands, can we at least, as taxpayers, be getting a form of democracy that's a bit closer to ours, somewhat backwards as it may be?

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    Well, I am from Canada, and as such do not think that the US should be "carving out democracy" in foreign lands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavel Sokov View Post
    Well, I am from Canada, and as such do not think that the US should be "carving out democracy" in foreign lands.
    Already happening, without the U.S. having to do anything.

    The simple fact that the U.S. exists, that the WWW exists, and the advent of the TV, have made it virtually impossible for any country to remain their own.

    Whether by force or economics, or entertainment media, the U.S.A will take your way of life DOWN!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    Funny, nobody's asked the Afghanis how they feel about this-- despite the BILLIONs of dollars we're spending to win their hearts and minds.

    "Hey, Karzai, dontcha think is great that gay Marines will now help protect your people from the Taliban?"

    [crickets chirping in void created by U.S. media self-censorship via cognitive dissonance. . . ]

    If we're going to use violence to carve out "democracy" in foreign lands, can we at least, as taxpayers, be getting a form of democracy that's a bit closer to ours, somewhat backwards as it may be?
    As one of those crazy "Christian-hating" people who are quicker to laugh at creationists than to agree with them that all Muslims are actively trying to enact Sharia law on us, I can say that both groups are fucking retarded.

    Just because I defend everyone's right to worship how they see fit doesn't mean I'm some kind of hypocrite because I don't attack Muslims every chance I get. Which seems to be the general "for-us-or-against-us" attitude the Neocon/Republican/Libertarian/Anti-Leftwing group narrative of choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liffey View Post
    I just don't know whether it's a "sin" by the standards of a Christian God
    There are arguments both ways, really. The documentary I was talking about (For the Bible Tells Me So) goes into the issue of how homosexuality is handled in the Bible extensively. This is the best copy I could find:



    Probably would have been better not to post, lol. But what fun would that be.
    No, this is exactly the kind of reasonable voice we need to hear in the debate.

    Last edited by Ohaeri; March 20th, 2012 at 12:48 PM. Reason: fixed the video
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  33. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    As one of those crazy "Christian-hating" people who are quicker to laugh at creationists than to agree with them that all Muslims are actively trying to enact Sharia law on us, I can say that both groups are fucking retarded.

    Just because I defend everyone's right to worship how they see fit doesn't mean I'm some kind of hypocrite because I don't attack Muslims every chance I get. Which seems to be the general "for-us-or-against-us" attitude the Neocon/Republican/Libertarian/Anti-Leftwing group narrative of choice.
    But. . .

    Bouncing a Nerf rocket off the ass of the "elephant in the room that nobody's supposed to talk about" hardly constitutes an "attack." But, at least it gets you to talk about the "elephant!"

    Here's a Nerf rocket labelled "but, Seattle Gay Leaders, how doe Hamas treat gay people ?

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...prmid=obinsite

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    But. . .

    Bouncing a Nerf rocket off the ass of the "elephant in the room that nobody's supposed to talk about" hardly constitutes an "attack." But, at least it gets you to talk about the "elephant!"

    Here's a Nerf rocket labelled "but, Seattle Gay Leaders, how doe Hamas treat gay people ?

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...prmid=obinsite
    How do Orthodox Jewish people feel about homosexuality? Anti-Semitic Nerf missiles!

    But really, the great thing about political opinions is that they're not self-consistent. Obviously their opinion on the Israeli/Palestine conflict took precedence over their opinion on gay marriage. If Hitler--



    ...was gay, I wouldn't want him showing up at a pride parade.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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    it's legal in some countries..

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    Quote Originally Posted by leahjohn View Post
    it's legal in some countries..
    Indeed. What's your point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tehmeh View Post
    About damn time.
    True That

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