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Thread: Sexuality, Sexism, Women, and all that

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    Sexuality, Sexism, Women, and all that

    Edit Note This topic is a split from http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=238297 I moved it here so that the person's critique can still continue, and to be fair for all members to still be able to continue or not continue the discussion end Edit

    Sorry for the blanc OT, I just really want to add something to this:

    I personally think it's a way for men to deal with feeling threatened by powerful women, by diminishing them to sex objects.
    Then what were heroes like Tarzan or Conan? Their roles are best described as primitives with muscles. However, you wouldn't ever say that these are sexobjects.

    Also, strong woman are not feeling like an intimitation for the male gender. I'm not really very attracted by female javelin throwers, however I am by good looking female boxer or tennis player (actually I've been together with a female boxer for a while, and I know she was stronger than me), as well as I'm less attracted by a overweight and ugly than a good looking female. Woman have a very different and more complex idea of a sexually appealing man. Many factors play a role, not just appearance. The majority (!! this means not every single woman in the world!!) of woman still are less interested in just a man's lookings (meaning, they are paying attention to a lot of other stuff too) than the majority of men is interested in just the womens lookings. This does not mean I am like that, this does not mean I am endorsing this behaviour. Also this does not mean it counts for every woman and man. Of course there are exeptions. Also, "less" doesn't mean "woman like ugly men" or "men only like one kind of generic super woman". So stop this childish pseudo-argument of "generalization".

    This opinion now is of course ment for people who are searching for a partner, not for a ONS. And my opinion here is proven quite a lot by the current entertainment branche. Not lastly by "why are female heros always attractive?". Look, TV, movie and co. are representing the interestes of mankind. If this wouldn't be the situaton, actually nobody would watch all the poulair movies and nobody would ever watch TV.

    Since the original topic was about tearing apart a drawing that showed a lightly closed female hero, the question I was trying to answer here is, why most female heros are attractive, while male heros often are not (give or take). Now on one hand the radical feminists here were blaming me for things that I never said (like if I was against a womans free sexuality lol...), rather than quoting incoherent phrases and missinterprete a whole universe of nonsense into them. Note that I do not have any problems with emancipation, and that I will state this more than 10 times in many ways here in this thread. I thought that it is self explaining, but anyway: Having the opinion on how sexual behaviour is still spread in our world does not automatically mean that I am behaving this way too. It also doesn't mean that I endorse it.

    However, if someone feels offended by attractive female heros, how can you at the same time reduce men to sexobjects (menstriptease for example)? If you want female sexuality to be accepted, you should also accept mens sexuality, at least far enough to allow them writing their stories/drawing their pictures with attractive, lightly closed female heros. Why? Maybe this is something many radical feminists will neither understand, nor share in opinion. But men like pretty woman - NOT to reduce them into sex objects, but because they adore them for their beauty. And this is were I - as many others too - start to believe the spread thought about many female extremists:
    The first who reduced pretty women to be sexobjects were them, just by tellling they are.
    To be fair, of course there are men who are doing this too, by talking condescendingly about them. However, in both cases, jealousy plays a big role. Many feminists are just frustrated about not getting the same attention as pretty woman get. And I bet that everyone wants to be pretty (and to avoit the lame generalization argument: Okay, sorry, not everyone, you for example maybe are happy with looking not attractive. But you are not the rest of the human race!). Actually, by assuming that they are sexobjects, they are deceiving themself to put themself over those attractive women. While men who just "can't have what they want" will be doing so for the same reasons, putting themself over the adored females.

    Now to react on Calireayins quote:
    Bullshit. You want to know why women can't have sex or enjoy sexy things as casually as men do?

    Because female sexuality is shamed, downplayed, and largely sodding well ignored in mass media. Because of the very point of this thread, as Spiritvanished found out, that women are heavily sexualized and objectified while their own sexuality is erased. Because of the virgin/not-virgin dichotomy, where women are expected to look sexy but act as if they don't know what sex is. Because just being a woman and admitting that you have a sex drive is enough to get you treated like dogshit in 90% of the world.

    Not, and let me be clear on this, because women don't want to see sexy men. Again, see the Chippendales. See the colossal slash fiction subculture that's been going on since the '70s. See the huge popularity of romance books, which is possibly the only socially acceptable form of porn for women out there right now.

    Women don't embrace or display their sexuality because they face a hell of a lot of punishment for it.
    If I say I am not a fan of one night stands, it doesn't mean I am a sexist! Not endorsing carefree sex with every next best person is NOT an anti-emanzipated opinion, it is an opinion about sexuality in general. We are not living in the 60ies anymore. Of course, these times helped a lot with the perspective over sexuality, however, it is not as extreme as it was back then anymore. And this also changed most opinions about sex too. Even if you are still living like in the 60ies in your head, other people will still see you in a different way. Something, everybody can have (in this case, something is a person's body!!) is losing its worth. Also, it is a sign of losing respect over the human body, it is what makes them start to treat each other as sexobjects, and - the most important, ONS can have consequences. One of them are deseases like HIV.

    Beside the fact I have never said that women don't want to see sexy men, seriously those facts by Calireayin... everybody already knows it, everybody heard it by now over a hundred times, and everybody should by now accept it. At least, I do. But did you ever try to figure out why this really continues nowadays?

    Of course there are men who talk condescendingly about their ONS afterwards in front of their male friends. That is however just another reason why I am against ONS. Because this is a possible consequence, if you decide to sleep with somebody who you didn't know well enough before: The person who you had sex with could blame you for sleeping with him/her afterwards.

    Men can start talking condescending about their ONS in front of their male comrades. But women and men are a lot the same. Women talk about sex too. And they also blame the guys they slept with. Of course women aren't usually telling men about such things, like who they slept with, how many people they slept with etc. But are men doing so? Are men telling women about how many girls they had in bed? Usually this is not the case. Women don't want to hear such things. So this is definately not an argument.
    However, when telling somebody about your last nights ONS, there are many possible reactions.

    These are examples:
    - Not interesting. Those things should be kept for oneself;
    - Rivalry - the others tell about their own sexual experiences too;
    - The friends of the person who told about the ONS will be delighted for him/her;
    - And whatever possible other reactions.

    Now however, there is a possible reaction that usually happens under females:
    - The female aquantiances will be jealous. They were not getting the good looking man's attention, he just had eyes for their female buddy. And on top of that, she boasts around with it now, she is the one who was adored. The reaction is angry offense - she will be treated as a sl*t.

    Actually, the last possible reaction is imho the most important for what I try to point out.
    What is this all meaning?

    Women are making other women to sexobjects as much as men, women are taking away their own freedom in sexuality as much as men.

    Edit: Clariefied what is my opinion and what not.
    Last edited by Swamp Thing; March 11th, 2012 at 01:36 PM. Reason: Stating reasin for split
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    spiritvanished, think about the pose. If you were this powerful woman who had just killed a monster and where crouching down to pick his head, will you push your breats and ass out in that way while throwing your head back? I mean try it out, crouch down on the floor and pick something doing the same pose, it is very uncomfortable, almost impossible.
    I like the last concepts, she looks much more elegant.

    swampthing, wut?
    "Woman attract men by their lookings more than man attract woman by their lookings," no no no no no. Attractive men are ...attractive. And yes women are attracted to handsome men, believe it or not, it's true.
    I don't mind women being attractive as heroes, but I do like it when the main male character is a hunk.
    If the videogame doesn't have at least one hunk, I ain't playing it :V Although if you look closely all the main male roles on videogames lately are always the same hunk with brown hair and scruffy beards (I'm not complaining, I love scruffy beards..it's a...je ne sais quoi)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swamp Thing View Post
    woman always prefer the alpha male, the one who makes more money, the one who is stronger, more intelligent, more versatile, having any great abilities that seem to bring him further in his live. And that is, why male heroes are usually more often looking unattractive, and why female heroes almost never look unattractive.
    Nope. Some women are attracted to that type, sure, but by no means are all of us. I think what's important to remember here is..

    The writer is usually a male. If the story involves a hot woman falling in love with a man who is creative and capable but not really attractive.. it's not because the writer did a survey of what women want and wrote a story based on that. The capable man who is not necessarily attractive is a male ideal of male love interest characters. That's why we see so many shows and films where supermodels hook up with chubby, unattractive men. It's a fantasy designed for men that says "It's okay if you're not attractive; you can still get size 0 girls with huge racks because it's your personality that's important".

    Which leads me back to the subject of 'powerful' women in art.. Women are only seen as powerful when they are sexy. You can be the most intelligent and able-bodied woman, you can punch through brick walls or find a cure for cancer.. but if you're not hot, no deal. If you want to create really interesting pro-feminist work, create female characters that are powerful first and sexy second. They can be attractive, but don't present the woman as if her tits are her most powerful tool rather than her abilities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swamp Thing View Post
    while woman always prefer the alpha male, the one who makes more money, the one who is stronger, more intelligent, more versatile, having any great abilities that seem to bring him further in his live.

    Would you mind posting that on 9gag.com? I'm sure you will find plenty of support there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordLouis View Post

    Would you mind posting that on 9gag.com? I'm sure you will find plenty of support there.
    I don't think what he said is so untrue and embarassing to be a joke on 9gag. Perhaps when he used the word "always" sounded dramatic (like "a woman never cares about beauty") but at least where I live, for better or worse, there is much more women trying to find an intelligent and capable partner than men trying the same aproach.
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    A good argument is based on the idea of NOT overexaggerating/dramatizing the words of the person you are trying to argue against. This is the case.

    I didn't say that woman are attracted by ugly men, nor did I say that woman are completely unaffected by the lookings of a men. I said that woman are caring less for the lookings of a man than a man cares for the lookings of a woman in general. LESS doesn't mean NOT.

    Nope. Some women are attracted to that type, sure, but by no means are all of us.
    Those were examples. You can also like men who are charming, sympathic or whatever. The point is, that there is no generic super-man that would be appealing for every woman. There are woman who like man with scars and folds, there are some who like hard manly faces, there are soe who like big strong man, or even men with a bit of an overweight. There are woman who like men that look like girls, or man with no muscles, skinny man, etc. etc.
    There is absolutely no way that you can describe a man that is attractive for all woman. However it is a lot easier to find a woman that is sexually appealing to every man. And again, personality, interests and livestyle play a way bigger role for a woman than for a man. It is not untypical for men to marry a girl that is 10 or 20years younger, and not having any great career, how often you see that visa versa? How often you see that woman are going into a strip club looking at naked men, how often you see a man going to a strip club looking at naked girls? And why you think it is like that?
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    I honestly think the whole "alpha male" theory is so outdated, and frankly just bullsh*t. Women don't specifically look for a man who makes a lot of money or is otherwise very successful/powerful. Such women are called gold diggers, and yes they do exist, but they are not even close to being the majority. For example, I know a lot of men who make a lot of money or are very successful in their education (and as such likely to make a lot of money in the future), but none of them are even remotely attractive to me. For the most part because they seem to care so much about their capabilities and intellectual or financial superiority that women seem to be of secondary importance; who wants to be in a relationship with a guy like that?

    What almost all women want is security, and that's not necessarily financial security, but also emotional and physical security. Some women will prefer the physical security, some will prefer the financial, but I'm pretty confident that most women today look for a guy who they can trust and rely on emotionally. Why? Because most women today don't need men to make money for them, nor do they necessarily need men to protect them physically. That's not to say it isn't important at all, but it's definitely of secondary importance.

    So how do you make a woman look powerful? Quite simply by making her appear like she needs no security. For a modern day or futuristic woman, the best way to do it would be to make her look like she is very well capable of taking care of herself emotionally.

    Do mind that it's quite modern for women to primarily look for emotional security. In past times, money would definitely have been more important, and in prehistoric times physical power would have been more important. So, depending on the time your character lives in, you should apply different signs of security to make your woman seem powerful and independent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swamp Thing View Post
    How often you see that woman are going into a strip club looking at naked men, how often you see a man going to a strip club looking at naked girls? And why you think it is like that?
    Primarily because there aren't NEARLY as many strip clubs designed for female visitors, just like there isn't NEARLY as much pornography designed for women. It's a really poor example to prove your point, really.

    I do watch porn, and I would probably watch it more but I can't help but always be bothered by how much the focus is on the woman. It makes porn unattractive for me. Your conclusion would undoubtedly be that women simply don't like watching porn, but the main reason is there just isn't as much porn available that is attractive for us. It's slowly changing nowadays, the sex market for women is growing. That's not because women are suddenly growing more interested in sex or men in the physical way, but because women were never regarded as a target audience. Your point of view is part of the reason why.
    Last edited by Lhune; March 8th, 2012 at 02:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lhune View Post
    I honestly think the whole "alpha male" theory is so outdated, and frankly just bullsh*t. Women don't specifically look for a man who makes a lot of money or is otherwise very successful/powerful. Such women are called gold diggers, and yes they do exist, but they are not even close to being the majority. For example, I know a lot of men who make a lot of money or are very successful in their education (and as such likely to make a lot of money in the future), but none of them are even remotely attractive to me. For the most part because they seem to care so much about their capabilities and intellectual or financial superiority that women seem to be of secondary importance; who wants to be in a relationship with a guy like that?
    Again, it was an example.

    What almost all women want is security, and that's not necessarily financial security, but also emotional and physical security. Some women will prefer the physical security, some will prefer the financial, but I'm pretty confident that most women today look for a guy who they can trust and rely on emotionally. Why? Because most women today don't need men to make money for them, nor do they necessarily need men to protect them physically. That's not to say it isn't important at all, but it's definitely of secondary importance.
    And those things are way less interesting for men. Woman would never chose a men just for his lookings. After all, there is a reason behind the idea that woman aren't going to bed with every men, just because they give a lot more about the person's livestyle.

    So how do you make a women look powerful? Quite simply by making her appear like she needs no security. For a modern day or futuristic woman, the best way to do it would be to make her look like she is very well capable of taking care of herself emotionally.
    However, to add is, that nobody would buy a self-confident female protagonist that looks bad.

    Primarily because there aren't NEARLY as many strip clubs designed for female visitors, just like there isn't NEARLY as much pornography designed for women. It's a really poor example to prove your point, really.

    I do watch porn, and I would probably watch it more but I can't help but always be bothered by how much the focus is on the woman. It makes porn unattractive for me. Your conclusion would undoubtedly be that women simply don't like watching porn, but the main reason is there just isn't as much porn available that is attractive for us. It's slowly changing nowadays, the sex market for women is growing. That's not because women are suddenly growing more interested in sex or men in the physical way, but because women were never regarded as a target audience. Your point of view is part of the reason why.
    This is NOT a bad argument, it is the main explanation of this topic. But for arguing against me, would you go far enough to call yourself superficial enough to just care for a men's looking?
    After all, why do you think that there are less strip clubs/pornos for woman? Simply because the audience is by far smaller. If you like to watch porn, that's great, however this doesn't speak for every woman.


    BTW I once saw a test on TV (give or take it's right or not, I just share it): Where do woman look when they see an appealing man and where do man look? About 10 tests with each gender resulted in this: Men analzye face, breasts, butt and body. Woman mainly check for other females around (concurency).
    Last edited by Swamp Thing; March 8th, 2012 at 02:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swamp Thing View Post
    How often you see that woman are going into a strip club looking at naked men, how often you see a man going to a strip club looking at naked girls? And why you think it is like that?
    I don't know man, someone's been keeping the Chippendales in business for decades... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chippendales
    But remember that lots of stuff that people see (movies, tv-series, media) tends to be written by men, for men (or if not specifically for men, at least with the old fact that "women can look at guy stuff but guys won't look at woman stuff" playing strong), so you'll be likely to see guys going to a strip club in a movie or in TV. I do faintly remember similar scenes with women too, but I'm pretty sure those were only in more women-centric shows (Sex and the City for example).
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    Someone also keeps Justin Bieber in business.
    One main reason for this is, that they are prominents, and dreaming of being on their side just makes girls feel like they are better than every other girl out there, who wasn't chosen.

    To add is however, that I might be not the only perso that never heard of the Chippendales (beside the squirrel vesion ofc).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swamp Thing View Post
    And those things are way less interesting for men. Woman would never chose a men just for his lookings. After all, there is a reason behind the idea that woman aren't going to bed with every men, just because they give a lot more about the person's livestyle.
    Oh, dear. Welcome to the 21st century. I know plenty of women who are pretty much just interested in looks. Might be the country or something, but it's not rare at all anymore. I'll also have you know that a lot of adult men do look for more than just a pretty face or body; even if it is the latter that they are attracted to initially, but do you really think it's any different for women? It's always the outside you see first (safe for online relationships) and no matter if you're a guy or a girl, if the outside is not even slightly appealing, you most probably won't bother. Also what Tinybird said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swamp Thing View Post
    However, to add is, that nobody would buy a self-confident female protagonist that looks bad.
    Sexuality, Sexism, Women, and all that

    Sexuality, Sexism, Women, and all that

    Sexuality, Sexism, Women, and all that

    I'm sure there's more, but these are the ones I can think of right now. Still; how likely is it for a character to look bad and still be self-confident? To do that they would have to possess some other quality to make up for their looks; be it a lot of money, intellect, physical (or other, such as magical) power. I don't see how this is tied to gender at all; this can be done with women just as easily as with men.
    Last edited by Lhune; March 8th, 2012 at 03:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swamp Thing View Post
    One main reason for this is, that they are prominents, and dreaming of being on their side just makes girls feel like they are better than every other girl out there, who wasn't chosen.
    Chosen for what? It's erotic dancing with lots of delicious manmeat. Sometimes it just doesn't go any deeper than that. Sometimes it's just for fun.

    To add is however, that I might be not the only perso that never heard of the Chippendales (beside the squirrel vesion ofc).
    And then you wonder why you don't see about stuff like that more?
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    I start to believe that you just frantically try to blame me for defending an opinion that is not with the cheap trend-ethic.

    @Lhune

    Very bad examples.
    The antagonist of Arielle shows no self-confidence. The stereo-disney antagonist is an ugly witch type who is jealous for the pretty female protagonist. Sadly this is also one of the main ideas of woman to behave radically overfeministic - being jealous of girls who are in their eyes more attractive, and showing what they got.

    Shrek is also a bad example. Actually it is all about that the girl sacrifices her beauty in order to be able to stay with her hero, since he prefers the lookngs. And again, we have an ugly male hero, and probably a story written by a man.

    @TinyBird

    Also it has lots to do with sex, rather than lifestyle. You do realize that having sex isn't necessarily just as pleasurable, quick and simple for women as it is for men, and I'd say a lot of men don't necessarily give a crap about whether the woman gets an orgasm or not after they've gotten theirs. So it's not that women necessarily had more hang up about having sex with many men or doing one nighters, but it's not necessarily worth the effort.
    I mean would you be super keen on sleeping with lots of women if you knew that it's unlikely you'd get off of it?
    The topic was about under-dressed, pretty female heroes. And my explanation for this to be spread like it is was what I wrote so far. Not my way of thinking, just a fact on how people in this 21. century still behave and think, obviously, since it shows up on what sells and what doesn't.

    Also I'm not the type of man that has any interest in ONS or fucking around as much as possible. Simply because I prefer woman that are not obviously going to bed with everybody. However that doesn't automatically mean I am not interested in female persons that are looking attractive.

    I really don't know what to say to that, but that's kinda sad. And I really don't understand your logic with that, do you think that someone being self-confident without them being pretty is so outlandish that no one would believe that or that people just wouldn't buy stuff with woman protagonists that aren't modelled after models?
    Becoming condescending doesn't make your arguments better.
    No, I don't think that ugly / fat female persons are self-confident. They may give themself as if they were, (most of the time being over-feministic), however - since the 21st century is NOT like you wish it to be - they will be refused every day by men, seeing how other - pretty girls manipulate men, getting everything they want from them, regardless of how far they go to get what they want.
    However, I'm not against a story that makes it different, if it is told good enough to be authentic. I just again want to point out, that there are reasons why you hardly see it this way around.

    Now btw - even those by men wrote stories - usually show self-confidence equal to strengh, however hardly equal to their lookings. Usually the loser guy is a weakling. And usually, men wont have it easier to find themself in the role of a hero that is strong, skilled and brave than in a pretty man.

    Chosen for what?
    Chosen as a girlfriend over millions of other girls.

    And then you wonder why you don't see about stuff like that more?
    OKay, to be more exact: Neither me, nor my girlfriend know them. This just means, that they are not as populair as you might think.


    Edit -
    Say that to the yaoi industry...
    wow... Do you even have the slightest idea about sexuality in japan?
    Last edited by Swamp Thing; March 8th, 2012 at 03:18 PM.
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