Oh im so happy!
I finally had got my old account back. (:
I was posting on imaginefx forum but i missed you guys and your harsh critiques.
Schools is a beast right now, and I've been working harder than ever.
so i have less work to show for myself these days.
but i do have this idea, that has really grown.
being at college has opened me to gender studies and ive been very passionate about women's empowerment and the shame of women's sexuality in our culture. "the purity myth" is a great movie.
anyways I've also been involved in study groups focused around the concpet of gender roles and how they affect men and their ability to express themselves outside of "hyper masculinity" and in turn hyper sexuality.
to the point where america has a rape culture and a suggestion that most rape victims are "asking for it." therefore I wanted very badly to beat the people i've heard support such a theory, to a pulp.
ive heard such disgusting things on my facebook feed, on the street, in forums, in class from both men and women.
and have heard enough rape and molestion stories to make my heart sink into the athenosphere.
im pretty non violent, ive never been in a fight and could never punch someone without a REALLY good reason, probably self defense.
anyways, heres a picture of a roving badass woman fighting scum, without even a slice of remorse.
and also, i know its another sexy woman, please give me a break on that.
Uni is really killing me, plus i ve been drawing this commission for a few months now, and i just want to draw what keeps me excited to draw and happy.
Last edited by spiritvanished; March 7th, 2012 at 12:47 PM.
Well, I'd say this has the same problems as your other pieces, as in they mostly concentrate on showing a pretty face and body in the expense of the story and composition. Like I have little idea exactly how she's posed on top of the... well, "thing" (I guess it's a man but I thought it to be a demon or something with the weird eyes and red skin, seeing how the woman is realistic) and how either of those figures work in the perspective you've set for the background (at the moment to me they look more like they've sunken to the ground).
Also I completely lost the "protecting" part of the image, (partly because at the moment the girl/woman is just a meaningless scribble in the corner and the piece is overpowered by the fully rendered face and tits,) so I'd really think the value and colour choices so that viewers will notice the little girl in the back too.
The finger anatomy looks very mangled (like the great variation on the size of the fingers and the very sharp angle the nail is compared to the finger on the most right side finger, as well as the fact that she has only four fingers) and I don't understand what the spiky ball the fingers grow from is. Is it a glove or a spiky wrist strap or something?
Also well, personally I did like the version where her face was bit more angled better than the one you have now, buuut...
Indeed. Are you just showing us a halfway done WIP? Because there is still a lot more more required in this piece. The face is a decent render, though she looks more like she's making bedroom eyes instead of beating the shit out of someone.
You clearly have strong feelings about the subject matter, convey that more in your painting.
Last edited by Star Eater; March 7th, 2012 at 05:32 AM.
I like the colors (love her hair), perspective and her clothes. Very sexy. But as said on this topic her face is awesome but she seems to be posing for a fashion magazine and not fighting someone.
Perhaps I shouldve made it clear that this is indeed a WIP.
I'm absolutely no where near done.
I've been tracking my progress on the imaginefx forum.
this is the most recent update.
I have line art really low to paint the torso.
imo, this isnt even halfway done. the "guy" at the bottom hasnt even been started beyond sketch.
i was attempting to make a "extreme"? perspective. kid of like your looking at, but slighty under him, past her, and then down the street to the girl.
thats why the building sketch is so curved as well as the street behind her, im trying to follow that curve line with the spikes on what is going to be a finished bracelet.
I've seen a few that arent perfect, but still create a strange look environment.
that being said, again this still a WIP.
i wanted to get a little weird with this, this was (partly) an inspiration.
I'm not looking to do what ive done before in terms of painting. etc.
the bodies are ...
but the faces have this weird distant disgust, ive seen alot of other art like this, and thats i wanted to do with her.
devilette.tumblr.com & toxic vision were huge inspirations.
I don't know, she just looks bored. I can't see anything in her face that would show disgust and again I mention the head, when it was angled differently there was more power, like she's not willing to even turn her head towards you, her chin is up and she's tough. I don't think that head is exactly bad either (except that her jaw line gets lost in her neck, making her neck and head appear to be one tube), the serene and bored look is in its own way an interesting contrast, but yeah, I'm not seeing much disgust or disapproval in her expression.but the faces have this weird distant disgust, ive seen alot of other art like this, and thats i wanted to do with her.
I've seen your other posts, mate. And whilst I admire the fact you take ages to render your pictures to such a degree, I've rarely seen you push yourself in terms of facial expressions or character designs, but I won't go into that.
You say you're trying to depict disgust and a distant -above it all- sort of look, but it seems you're afraid of making them look unsexy and keeping it blank. I think it'd do you some good to take a break, do some expression studies, and come back to that face with fresh eyes whilst you're still at an early stage.
Also think you might be going into rendering faces too fast without figuring out exactly how you're going to depict her movement beleivably. If she's straddling the male figure, I have this feeling that her hips might be off, there isn't much force in her movement either, so it wouldn't do you much harm to look over that bit again.
Anyways, hope you take on peoples' advice, it would be good to see you improve your story telling aspects, or else it'd be a great waste.
Well, I guess all I can say, is ill take your advice into consideration with my next update.
I'm thinking about getting a simple 3d program to help me out with the landscape/background.
its not always a choice, i often change my mind right in the middle of a piece, because i get new inspiration.
also i do alot of sketches, but can never execute them well.
when im at home away from the internet, i work really quickly.
I really wanted to make this character fully clothed, but i was having such a fun time painting her skin, and i think i when im finished the torso will look really good.
its a really difficult decision for me, i love looking at her face, and im really proud of it. I think it may be one of the best ive rendered. so its like, it almost has the look i was going for, do i want to change it so much?
in my head she isnt straddling him, looking at it not i can see how a viewer would think that, the idea of that creeps me out. I imagine she would barely want to touch him. im imagining her slamming his face on a curb or something, and this is just her lifting his head up, for another slam. she shes like crouching behind him. can anyone give me some advice on showing more force? i thought i had it, but the more i look the more static she becomes.
Here's just my quick idea version of it, take it how you want.
Well, there was some talk about inspiration in this thread, which you might want to read: http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=238074its not always a choice, i often change my mind right in the middle of a piece, because i get new inspiration.
And I understand what you mean about inspiration in midway as that happens to me too, but thus far it generally has led mostly on unhappy ending with me. If the inspiration takes you away from what you intended with the image (like suddenly painting naked chicks in a pic that originally wasn't supposed to have them), then I think it wouldn't hurt if you tried more to ignore that inspiration or take it out on another image and keep to the goal you set for that particular image. Especially if you want to try to create a more professional approach (as I don't think customers necessarily want you to completely change direction with their images/designs just because you had a random inspiration).
Also since I seem to be on a roll, here's another thing to think about too, your shadows (and values). Like here's two versions of my redline with different shadows, the first going more with what your original piece has, and other more of an opposite of it.
The first one concentrates the light areas immediately to the woman's face and chest, leaving everything else more in the shadow, giving more of an impression (to me at least) of "a pretty woman!...who's doing something!" and the second hides her more in the shadows, giving a spotlight to the beaten guy and the little girl, which (at least I hope) puts more emphasis on the "someone's beaten! by that pretty woman!", in the sense that you want the story to be first thing the viewers sees, and not as an afterthought when they stop looking at her puffed chest and come-hither face (though my contrast between her head and the wall is kinda distracting but you get the idea).
And I'm not saying it's wrong to put the emphasis on a well painted beautiful woman, but it's always good to think whether you are doing it for the benefit of the image or not.
There are LOADS of material on sexy female fighters, fighting. Take a look at a few female MMA matches for both interesting facial expressions and poses.
For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AAwoPCOxZ0
Last edited by w176; March 8th, 2012 at 04:18 AM.
I have no intention of becoming a professional artist, I just aspire to become a really good amateur.
Sketchbook: w176 love of the color dirt
I have a rather philosophical, rather than artistic, response to this piece. I hope you consider this as food for thought based on your intro to this piece. I speak as a therapist, and a male in a largely female profession.
There is a severe disconnect between your background info re rape culture and women as sex objects, and what you have actually drawn. You describe her as badass, but what you have drawn is a woman in a sexualized pose, in skimpy underwear, with a "come hither" look on her face common to anyone who peruses porn magazines. The fact that you describe her as powerful *and* sexy is an interesting thing I see in many men - they can't seem to leave the "sexy" out of it - so she is still a sex object, just in a different way - a male's fantasy of the dominant woman. Think about it - we don't automatically describe powerful men as sexy and powerful, do we...?
When you say
it's is clear that you recognize that you have decided to draw a woman whose primary defining attribute is her sexuality. You then justify your decision by saying it's what excites you. How, then, is this different than all the other objectification of women that you say you hate? It is this more subtle and unthinking male-centered definition of women's empowerment as essentially sexual, that is a bigger problem than traditional, outright male chauvinist behaviour - just because it is more subtle. I personally think it's a way for men to deal with feeling threatened by powerful women, by diminishing them to sex objects.and also, i know its another sexy woman, please give me a break on that.
I should note that the only reason I posted this is because of the disconnect between your into and the image. In and of itself the image isn't awful (although it has been done to death already by every videogame artist on the planet). It's just that it was so jarring to see that was the route you were going after such an impassioned expression of your distress.
When you're done, it might be an interesting exercise for you to take the finished image to one of the gender studies / feminist classes (don't tell them it's yours) and see their take on it.
Anyway. Food for thought as I said. Please don't take this as an attack on you personally; I'm sure your hatred of rape culture is completely genuine. But I've dealt with the subtleties of this kind of thing for a long time and I just wanted to shine a bit of a light on something many of us don't even notice. Here is a lovely eye-opening piece about sexism and racism that talks about how blind we can be to our own actions, should anyone care to read it:
I'll be sure to go through all of the links.
I'm still a fairly new "feminist" just having been opened up to gender equality through a LGBTQ class taken in college.
In my personal opinion going into this picture I do not feel she fits into being objectified. however, I want her and myself to be taken seriously.
so while thinking through out the day, about the responses i received earlier and taking multiple steps back,
I've decided to change her appearance, taking a backseat on my own opinions about what is and isnt an acceptable representation of women for the success of my message, and i get to draw more things!
im still really bummed I wont be able to paint her torso.
I'll have to take this version to a class outside of my school, ahah, because i think they might recognize my work.
again thank you, for showing me this literature.
I'm just baffled by this. You're into gender studies, and you've seen The Purity Myth, so presumably you're aware of current feminist thinking that the sexualization and objectification of women in popular culture is a bad thing and needs to be seriously toned down... and your response to this is to draw a woman in a sexualized pose, with her chest sticking out, wearing skimpy clothing? And with the kind of vacant expression more commonly seen in porn? Like, y'know, the giant chunk of popular culture that sexualizes and objectifies women?
Am I the only one not understanding the train of thought here?
You can read alot into her "blank" stare, i think.
the purity myth fights pretty hard against the -shaming of women and their shaming of their sexuality. why cant I as a woman draw a women who is clearly unashamed of her body and her sexuality, protecting/literally fighting for another woman's sexual rights?
skin = bad.
and sexy = objectification
If i had drawn her literally doing nothing, or pressed up against a wall or showing off for a man, or washing dishes.
I might be able to agree with you.
what should i be drawing women in blue turtlenecks?
have you ever thrown a punch?
Well, i have not, to be honest, but most of the pictures and movie's ive seen and even in some of the videos w176 posted the fighter will pull back, im guessing to gather velocity(would that be the right word?
I've never really brought up my personal feelings about this, so ill try by best to express myself,here.
I'll agree that porn can be sexist, does that mean all porn is sexist?
no one seems to be concerned about the men in straight porn (well not no one, I know alot are)
men are expected to want to have sex biologically, for the purposes of reproduction. (a man can have ten kids a year, while will have one etc.)
so female sexuality is only evolutionary necessary for a short period of time, and if a woman has an overabundance of this sexuality it is considered an abomination. A desire to express her sexuality through her clothing and sexual habits, that is NOT,and should never be a crime.
the problem with sexuality in mass media, is that women are not only highly sexualized, but they are underrepresented, and have a small spectrum of sexuality. and media makes ties with sexuality as undesirable i.e : the dirty woman in college movies or more important than her personality, or her strength. or the character is evil and sexily dressed compared to the "virginal" character ie. the sexy villain in most Disney movies, and horror movies "the virgin lives"
and I dont think that having a character like this in my art is sexist, because she is strong, and she has a sense of what is right and wrong and fighting to protect those who cannot protect themselves.
Thank you though for your input.
The problem is that there is practically nothing else in popular culture, and those representations are all largely for the benefit of straight men.
It's true that female sexuality is downplayed, shamed, and seen as something wrong. But you are not being part of the solution if you draw pictures that show a female character in a way that makes her look like nothing but tits and ass, and that's exactly what the first picture is, no matter what way you look at it. It's no different from any other cheesecake pose.
You may think that the piece isn't objectifying or sexist, but come on, who are you trying to fool, here? I mean seriously, she's just sitting there in a metal bikini and sticking her chest out with this vacant look in her eyes. I have thrown a punch, I have worn armor, and I know enough about actual combat to find the idea of someone (a) fighting in a bikini and (b) throwing their head back and exposing their neck at any point to be laughable.
I think Justa is right and you mean well, but if you're going to make a stand on something like this, you have got to do the research and learn why this kind of thing is problematic. It's not enough to just draw this and declare that it's not sexist because of reasons that are not in any way obvious from the picture itself.
I think your later designs are better. And it's great that you're doing this and you're aware of the problem. But you are not going to solve it by drawing more pictures of women in skimpy clothing - especially female fighters in skimpy clothing - even if you think those drawings are not sexualized, because we are already up to our goddamn eyeballs in stuff like that. If you want to help balance things out, then draw fully-clothed women doing awesome things in appropriate poses. And more of what you just posted there.
Alternatively, take just about any picture where women are shown in a sexualized or submissive light and men are shown in a dominant or powerful light, and swap the gender of the characters while keeping all poses and costumes the same. Instant empowerment (and somewhat funny, if your sense of humor runs that way).
I don't agree as much with Calireayn in the part of "you should draw fully clothed women" (though that wouldn't hurt either) but really put thought on how you present your characters/figures. You say you don't feel she's objectified, but like I already mentioned, you direct the immediate attention to her face and breasts with a pose that has very little to do with what she's actually supposed to do (a similar example would be the way Megan Fox paint her motorcycle in the second Transformers movie), something that is generally playing into Male Gaze http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MaleGaze especially when it's also accented by her wearing just a bra, which makes it look like you are deliberately putting the attention there for the sake of sexy looks.No matter how subjectively “sexy” a design or costume you’re working with is, there will always be a body language divide that separates a power fantasy from a sex fantasy.
And yeah, you yourself say "im still really bummed I wont be able to paint her torso." which really does suggest you treated the character more as a tool to do what pleased you the most, as opposed to thinking what would have fit the character in terms of the story and her personality, which, well, is objectification (even if it's not of the sexual kind). And again, that's not inherently wrong and bad, but they play a part on this too.
There is a difference between having a sexy character that acts sexy, and having a sexy character that you pose and angle to show off just for the viewer. And again, the story matters too.
A lot of the stuff I would say has been said by Calireayn, but I'd still suggest you study a lot more the body language you are presenting, because it does play heavily into this subject.
(Especially the difference between the old and new Glory are worth thinking. You could easily say that the old one is holding weapons and looking tough so she's strong and thus not sexist, but everything in her yell "sexy sex mcsexy" and her design and pose choices are about solely for looking sexy and pretty, not for what sort of unique character/personality she should be.)
Last edited by TinyBird; March 8th, 2012 at 03:31 AM.
You do not need to draw a woman in a turtleneck, I think his point is that it is possible to depict a beautiful women without showing off her tits, sexual expression, etc. What I find more worrisome is the strong misandric message you seem to be promoting..but if I am mistaken I apologize. I really don't think you want a gender studies debate in your art thread
As for the painting though, the face is quite beautiful. It would be a shame to have to go over it, but I must admit your initial sketches of the face made more sense with the pose. You might be able to remedy this by making her look down at the figure, perhaps with a bit of a scowl, rather than have her look at us.
anyways. I created alternate designs for the last two or three hours.
uhm should i shrink these so you guys can see them better?
What TinyBird said, all of it. Body language is important.
Okay, maybe 'only draw women in clothes' is going a bit far. Honestly, all else being equal, it'd be fine to draw women in whatever state of undress you choose. But the problem is that all else is not equal, because the ratio of women in bugger all vs women in clothing appropriate to their job/current activity is completely out of balance. So if you want to do something about that, you gotta start with drawing women in actual clothes. Once you're proficient at that, then I'd say you can get into drawing women in less clothes but in poses that communicate power and respect, because you'll be less likely to default to women = sexy.
I guess I'm just sick to the back teeth of seeing yet another female character in skimpy, impractical clothing posing as if she's in a porn movie, like this isn't something so widespread that it's beyond a clichť. Coming from someone who says they want to combat sexism, it just makes me throw my hands up in despair.
I'mma go draw something now. Not much else to add here.
I mean would you be super keen on sleeping with lots of women if you knew that it's unlikely you'd get off of it?
I really don't know what to say to that, but that's kinda sad. And I really don't understand your logic with that, do you think that someone being self-confident without them being pretty is so outlandish that no one would believe that or that people just wouldn't buy stuff with woman protagonists that aren't modelled after models?However, to add is, that nobody would buy a self-confident female protagonist that looks bad.
EDIT: Ever read any Pratchett books? LOADS of female main characters that aren't pretty, but are self-confident.
Say that to the yaoi industry...After all, why do you think that there are less strip clubs/pornos for woman? Simply because the audience is by far smaller.
Last edited by TinyBird; March 8th, 2012 at 02:40 PM.
UGH JUST I UGH UGH.
Ive been doing studies everyday, pencil mostly. (some classes are great for hiding in the back and drawing naked bodies) I put this on the back burner, and now. oh god. it looks so bad.
things i want to change " make him much less dark, it looks like "pretty light girl destroys evil dark man" bullshit.
She needs to look much more angry, /note to self/study angry womens faces.
There was a video posted that i forgot to look at.
just feeling very unhappy with this.
I was thinking of putting a brick wall behind her and not biting off more than I can chew. Please help. Thank you
Wow, everyone thank you so much for all of the literature, links, videos (esp. the mma one).
It would be a shame to say I didnt feel enlightened, but i think you all being residents of the internet can understand the refusal to want to just agree, and the temptation to as well. I'm not sure what im going to do now. I was planning on changing the outfit, and reorganizing the composition, -i have created six thumbnails, and continue to make more- it can also be very difficult to think, even be sure that your changing, and growing and creating an image that is representative of what you believe is powerful.
I did not intend to let myself become another beacon of objectification in a highly saturated world. I just like to draw women, and i like to draw what attracts me. I think we can all see, and understand that. Still, i suppose its no excuse, its a lesson i thought I learned with an earlier discussion with Artfix. I went to the library last night, for both a midterm study session, and to pick up a few books. "american feminst thought" "feminists doing development" "say it loud african american audiences, media and identitiy" (as a black woman i found this would also be relevant).
and picked up a few article through JStor on representations of women in videogames.
I've decided to make this the subject of my research paper due sometime after spring break.
I'm not doing this for anyone but my art, women and men like myself, and to alter the impact i make in this world.
reading these comments i look back on adamhughes maryjane statue, and the other drawing of maryjane that was going around on tumblr, mocking her bodylanguage.
I dont know what im going to do with this next, but hopefully I'll be well on my way to the long journey of really making a change in my perspective.
Still really like your use of color, and she's got a great facial expression too. I especially like the tilted angle of the composition, but her neck/head is getting a bit extreme. Maybe too much bending there. Also, try to indicate what she's crouching on. The way you've drawn it, I get the impression she is not on ground level. It looks like she's up in the air maybe on top of a car? Any clarification on that would go a long way towards the legibility of the image overall.
Her face and expression look great in my opinion, I love the rendering of her.
She still looks uncofortable, I agree with rseward about the neck.
If she's supposed to be picking up the head in front of her I think her upper arm should be coming towards us, right now it looks like her arm is relaxed next to her body.
Also gonna add that I agree about the neck. Less bendy, because dayum is that an uncomfortable pose to do. Also the neck is plain too long.
I like the expression. She looks like she's about to go to town on that guy's face.
I can't quite parse what the rest of her figure is doing, because it's not finished, so I'm not commenting on that. But this is better and you should feel good about it.
I love your energy. That's a quality that's hard to fake. I wouldn't be concerned over complaints of this piece's cheesecake quality either. That's just it's quality. That's what your putting over, and that's fine.
If your going there, if your piece is about the beauty, or sex appeal; then feel free, go there. Holding back, or a mixed message will only dilute your work. I'd love to see this revised with the focus being more on the sex appeal. Were all adults here mostly. I wouldn't be modest about what your piece is trying to encapsulate.
My only technical feedback would be her hands, an easy fix if you kept the piece. Don't worry about fingers, or "grips". Draw her hands has if she's wearing oven-mits. Concentrate on the hands entire silhouette, and flesh-out fingers when your finishing the piece. And remember, hands suck and are hard to paint. Good stuff, love to see the revision.
Learn to gesture draw, try out "Drawn to Life" Stanchfield