The Shoelace Stroke Problem -Intuos - Test to see if you have it - Page 4

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  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporus View Post
    So I'm a bit confused...trying to wrap my head around this and put it simpler terms for anyone else reading this.. The issue isn't with wacom?! And so the pressure readings we see in Wacom Tablet Properties is something to go by because it is too raw?
    I suppose what we are seeing in Wacom properties panel shows that the tablet is sending pressure data at slow rate. So what you think is the shoelace effect is in fact just the lack of pressure coordinate sent by the tablet. I think also funshark has successfully explained one of the reason of this choice (simple mechanics).

    Once a program has used those data, it creates interpolation between those "pressure points" which produces a smooth curve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporus View Post
    so with that gif you're kind of showing what SAI does behind the scenes... and how the shoelaces are .. natural to the tablet..
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporus View Post
    i may be wrong, does anyone disagree that the smoothing is just for show and not actually related to the pressure read out of wacom drivers?
    I say this because hecartha was able to do it with a vector editing program, i think what SAI does is similar but much better and more efficient and it has an engine built to do that.
    I am not sure after reading that you are aware about vector tools in SAI. If I'm correct, you should look at this video.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporus View Post
    also with the last GIF ... thats SO counter intuitive... to think LESS pressure points make a smoother curve... im so surprised by that.. so is the intuos4 having 2047 pressure levels making it worse? or is that not related..?
    2048 levels of pressure means you can use a brush with 2048 pixels as diameter and you can virtually control any increment 1 by 1 of the brush size from 1 to 2048 (1,2,3,4,5,6...). With an Intuos 3, I have "only" 1024 levels of pressure so adjusting the size of such a big brush will be less precise (1,3,5,7,9...).
    But I was not talking about that, I was talking about reducing the number of pressure point. A pressure point has x,y coordinate that allows to locate it on the canvas and it has also the amount of pressure (0 to 2047 for Intuos 4 and 5). Here an example using a curve with simple pressure data.

    The curve is not short however it doesn't need lot of pressure data because if you unfold the curve, you will notice it is very simple about pressure variation. A computer is better than you doing interpolation between two points that's the reason why the lack of pressure data is not an issue. Less pressure points reduces the noise that could be produced by the friction on the surface of the tablet or by the wear of the stylus tip.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporus View Post
    I'm also thinking about buying a new Computer, right now i'm using a Dell Inspiron Laptop, overall which do you think is best? Mac or PC ?
    That really depends on your preferences. I could talk about all the reasons why I prefer to use Windows but my reasons are not yours...so...
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporus View Post
    In your video above, when using MAC is that MAC with smoothing? Meaning the only thing it has on Windows is that enabling smoothing WONT cause shoelaces?
    So PS CS5 on MAC OS X with smoothing on has nice ends AND smooth curves? is that the advantage there? Even on the video with the MAC you can still see beginning shoelaces
    I used exactly the same settings for Mac and Windows with path smoothing activated.
    Now I would like to point a difference between two shoelace effects you are talking about:
    -first, the real one produced by the bug which affects Windows version
    -the other is just the consequence of a bad pressure smoothing, and you can observe it on Windows or Mac OS. I used screenshots of the video I posted inside the following image.


    The differences between them is just that the shoelace bug has these characteristics:



    You talked before about this bug that may affect also the opacity so I added this video that confirms your supposition:

    Anyone else can confirm the issue?
    Quote Originally Posted by funshark View Post
    hecartha, your approach is interesting about the bug in Photoshop.[...]
    What I wanted to say is that the mechanics inside the stylus is really simple. And as you can see on my sketch, the tip is unstable... try to touch it.
    How can you send and record a value efficiently when a thing is unstable; mh?
    That's a great explanation about limitation of current hardware but that does not explain why all of the results I obtained use exactly the same pressure at the stroke end. Obviously, that's not a coincidence.
    Try to do a straight brush strokes using shift key and you will obtain this constant pressure at stroke end. Such perfection cannot be a mechanical issue.
    Here 10 brush strokes I made to illustrate that (you can click on the image for a full view):

    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    So I think it's a driver issue/software issue. But if it makes any difference the other computers were all Intel, and I believe so is Hecartha's mac iirc.
    The video has been recorded on core2duo 2,7 Ghz (Windows) and core2duo 2Ghz (Mac).
    I was using driver version 6.1.5-3a the first time I read this topic and the problem was there but I am curious about your result using AMD cpu.

    Last edited by hecartha; April 4th, 2012 at 08:27 PM.
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  3. #92
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    Hi Hecartha,

    There was a second person confirming the issue was not present using an AMD processor and Cintiq 21"

    But I may throw another curveball, I just plugged in my intuos 4 into the AMD computer and got the same ugly strokes. I haven't taken it further of uninstalling all the tablets and checking if the same result happens if I have the inutos4 first. I even tried messing with the pressure curve the old school way with no result.

    Ok, I just tested the intuos 3 and I'm able to get better tapered strokes than the intuos5 touch and intuos4

    This leads me to eliminate the AMD processor as the culprit.

    But I think I figured out my rounded stroke issue. Click threshold is too high by default. Even at the lightest stroke it gives too much pressure.

    So try moving your threshold to the right. Don't worry about being extreme. You'll find a much better result with tapered strokes.

    I attached a screenshot. Lemme know if you feel this is better.

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  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sporus View Post
    So PS CS5 on MAC OS X with smoothing on has nice ends AND smooth curves? is that the advantage there? Even on the video with the MAC you can still see beginning shoelaces
    I've just picked up intuos 5 medium today, and haven't got much time to play around with it, but first thing I've checked was the shoelacing, and ta-daa, it is there.
    the end of each stroke with smoothing enabled looks exactly like you've posted (tried with default grip pen and art pen, will test it around tomorrow, but looks like it's more apparent with artpen, probably due to more data being sent compared to grip pen)
    I've also noticed some end-of-stroke artifacts with painter's scratchboard tool, esp. on medium to low opacity (30 to 50 percent in my case), which kinda leaves me wondering what exactly wacom has fucked up with current pen tech, since this problem was not apparent with intuos 3 (I noticed some pressure hiccups on windows now and than, but they were gone after switching)
    it also might be a cross-platform floating bug that they haven't tracked already, thus lack of exact confirmation from wacom support person.
    and btw, 4ever flawless mac wacom drivers crashed on me once already during a... 15 minute test run?
    idk what exactly caused it, but it was unexpected and it sucks.

    will see if it happens more in the following days - I do love the hardware itself, design is great and art-pen doesn't feel like a beautifully designed cobble, but the software side left me quite disappointed. (I got the no-touch model, btw, so it might be even worse with touch-enabled models.)

    on the fourth day of glitchmas my painter™ gave to me
    four random crashes, three broken brushes, two system hangups & one corrupted workspace
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  5. #94
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    hey ikken,

    Try adjusting the click threshold to the right like I have it in the screenshot. I think that the "near zero" pressure sensitivity of the intuos4 and five cause heavier strokes. The intuos 3 handles it better with the default configuration, but I found I need to really need to ramp up the Click Threshold to get something decent. I thought it was the Max Pressure but oddly enough it's the bottom slider.

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  6. #95
    Ok so first off, @hecartha here is confirming the opacity and other shoelace possibility, happens on my Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit:


    anyway I see the differences between real and fake shoelaces, I have the real ones for sure.
    ah and yes, i am new to SAI ... that is cool! i get it now.

    @ Arshes Nei hmm yeah the guy on the Wacom Forum recommended that too... i dont know... i still get the bug in photoshop with smoothing enabled... or where should i test the raising of the click threshold? also does anyone know if doing that, moving the right threshold and left threshold is eliminating pressure levels? i'm pretty sure it is not i just want to make sure.

    @ ikken i'm sorry to hear that .. isnt the nontouch intuos5 just an intuos4? or did you get it because of the surface change?

    ...i'm going to be honest with you guys... i'm kind of getting lost here lol, it's getting a bit confusing. hoping maybe we can consolidate everything and sticky if necessary (prolly not)

    So which mode would be better 'standard mode' or 'Recognition Data' ? i have it set to 'Recognition Data' right now. from the image a couple posts ago i can see 'RD' yields smoother path curves.
    anyway thanks again guys for being extremely helpful and involved, i appreciate it.

    also is there a video for SAI that explains "stabilizer" and "quality"(with the 1-fastest...etc.) ??

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  7. #96
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    Sporus, just move the bottom slider to the right, the click threshold. If you don't like it/doesn't work then just hit default. It's not going to kill the tablet.

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  8. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Sporus, just move the bottom slider to the right, the click threshold. If you don't like it/doesn't work then just hit default. It's not going to kill the tablet.
    no luck.. still getting shoe laces strokes with this. similar thing happened on the first page of the wacom thread.

    @hecartha this may be totally unrelated, but in the first video you posted, at the end you use SAI at 50% zoom and 500pixel brush. is that on a MAC OS or on Windows? Because I get weird and terrible results attempting the same thing on stabilizer 10 but it may just be my PC is lagging.

    Also heres just another image for the same strokes in Sketchbook Express.
    what do you guys think? are these shoelaced or not? its hard to tell since this
    entire program doesn't emphasize pressure much.
    This is a pencil tool at it's biggest size.

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  9. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    hey ikken,

    Try adjusting the click threshold to the right like I have it in the screenshot. I think that the "near zero" pressure sensitivity of the intuos4 and five cause heavier strokes. The intuos 3 handles it better with the default configuration, but I found I need to really need to ramp up the Click Threshold to get something decent. I thought it was the Max Pressure but oddly enough it's the bottom slider.
    thanks for that tip!
    one thing I also noticed is that pen nibs DO make a huge difference;
    my worse results with shoe-lacing so far were caused by default black plastic nib of intuos 4 (slippery black plastic gives a lot of small jitter when rubbing against the surface) and, surprisingly, flex nib - white rubber tip gives extra line jitter;
    felt nibs, both light intuos 4 and dark intuos 3, are somewhat better, probably due to better contact of two friction-creating surfaces,
    and spring tip was the best one so far - minimal shoelacing (that is still prevalent in photoshop, and to much lesser extent in painter IX)
    white intuos 3 nibs are quite good too, plastic is matte and non-slippery;

    here's my current pressure curve, feels better than default one:

    two more examples -
    beginning and end of stroke glitch;
    end of stroke;
    all examples done with recognition data; surprisingly, test curve looks much more jagged than intuos 3 test stroke.

    I can't figure out the right art-pen values yet, though.

    that being said, here's a few test photoshop scribbles;
    I don't like inking in PS, but still -

    there're some oddly looking stroke ends, (all done with smoothing on, 1 % spacing), but overall, nothing that weird or ugly.

    upd: weird enough, but I don't see this issue @ windows xp. I don't have any software other than painter 6 and latest driver installed, and they're working together beautifully, even tho I know painter 6 can't even recognize the 2049 pressure levels.

    Last edited by ikken; April 6th, 2012 at 07:31 AM.
    on the fourth day of glitchmas my painter™ gave to me
    four random crashes, three broken brushes, two system hangups & one corrupted workspace
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  10. #99
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    Hey ikken,

    That jagged curve is what I used to get in programs like MyPaint.

    I still don't like inking in PS either, the shoelace problem is less apparent now though since I ramped up the click threshold. Painter still handles it better. My pressure curve is similar to yours the sensitivity is a bit higher.

    So that's what's going on with your Mac?

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  11. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    This leads me to eliminate the AMD processor as the culprit.

    But I think I figured out my rounded stroke issue. Click threshold is too high by default. Even at the lightest stroke it gives too much pressure.

    So try moving your threshold to the right. Don't worry about being extreme. You'll find a much better result with tapered strokes.

    I attached a screenshot. Lemme know if you feel this is better.
    Thanks Arshes Nei, but the problem is still there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporus View Post
    does anyone know if doing that, moving the right threshold and left threshold is eliminating pressure levels? i'm pretty sure it is not i just want to make sure.
    I suppose adjusting the threshold skips some pressure levels but you have 2048 levels by default so you can skip 50% and you will get an intuos3 :p
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporus View Post
    So which mode would be better 'standard mode' or 'Recognition Data' ? i have it set to 'Recognition Data' right now. from the image a couple posts ago i can see 'RD' yields smoother path curves.
    Recognition data is better as it sends more stylus coordinates to the driver so even if your software is not able to smooth the path of your brush stroke, it will be less "polygonal" than using the standard mode.
    Now, recognition data has been made primarily for writing as that requests more precision. Wacom recommended in the past to use it only if the standard mode was not good enough because it requested more processing power...but it was a long time ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporus View Post
    also is there a video for SAI that explains "stabilizer" and "quality"(with the 1-fastest...etc.) ??
    The best advice I can give you is try them and choose what is fitting the best to you
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporus View Post
    this may be totally unrelated, but in the first video you posted, at the end you use SAI at 50% zoom and 500pixel brush. is that on a MAC OS or on Windows? Because I get weird and terrible results attempting the same thing on stabilizer 10 but it may just be my PC is lagging.
    SAI is a Windows only program just like the perspective program you were talking about in a previous post.
    I have no idea what is your problem but maybe you can try to edit a setting in the file named 'misc.ini' in the program folder and search for those lines
    Code:
    ; Setting:
    ;   0 ... Mouse event controls by SAI.
    ;   1 ... Mouse event controls by WinTab.
    ;
    TabletMouseSimulation = 0
    And replace the 0 value by 1 (ie. TabletMouseSimulation = 1)

    Now, about the shoelace bug, I recorded this last video with direct comparison Windows/Mac with smoothing on and off.
    I have no doubt now, Photoshop on Windows replaces the null pressure it should use to finish a brush stroke by the last recorded pressure...



    If someone here is using Photoshop CS6 beta on Windows, please, use those videos to report the bug to Adobe...or it will be there for ever

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  12. #101
    wow cannot thank you enough guys!
    hecartha took all your advice it all helped! and those videos are insanely useful, and i used the last one specifically for Adobe.

    I reported the bug here: http://feedback.photoshop.com/photos...th_pen_tablets <--- "+1" this or like it on FB ..idk how to get adobe's attention lol.

    Maybe multiple reports would help ..idk, you need to make Adobe ID to report a bug.
    So just that people reading this thread don't get confused, I stressed the fact that shoe laces showing up in the WTP test area was a big deal, but its not.

    Last edited by Shahan; April 6th, 2012 at 03:36 PM.
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  13. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Hey ikken,

    That jagged curve is what I used to get in programs like MyPaint.

    So that's what's going on with your Mac?
    I basically spent yesterday tweaking painters brush tracking (my current pressure settings are 0,9 pr. scale and 1,45 pressure power @ painter IX; painter 6 works perfectly with default values; wacom pressure scale same as above), and I'm glad to see that
    a) there's no visible shoelacing, and painting does feel more fluid with the new model;
    b) the jagged line is only visible in wacom driver test area, painter strokes are all beautifully curved (but I keep spacing -> cubic interpolation at 3 for most brushes, maybe it helps to smooth out the irregularities)
    c) the weird broken curve @ wacom drivers might be due to wacom's detachable usb cable (since intuos3 has a permanently soldered usb cable, it might be a tad faster in terms of sending raw data between tablet and mac/pc)
    anyway, painter seems to handle my strokes much better now, but I can imagine how disturbing this whole thing would be for beginning users.
    why did wacom do such a sloppy job with default pressure set-up.
    it's also the first wacom tablet to have this kind of issue - and I've been through dark ages of graphire and all around decent intuos 3.

    on the fourth day of glitchmas my painter™ gave to me
    four random crashes, three broken brushes, two system hangups & one corrupted workspace
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  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by hecartha View Post
    Thanks Arshes Nei, but the problem is still there.
    Well I think I found a bug.
    If I try adjusting the click threshold via per program basis. Example, you select Photoshop over your grip pen and Customize. The rounded strokes at the beginning are there, even adjusting it to the extreme gives a round beginning and doesn't taper.

    However, if I decide to go to "All Others" deleting Photoshop out of my specific application preferences for the Grip Pen (you can keep the function keys), and then Customize the feel, I get tapered strokes.

    What a weird bug.

    Ok, yep. I have to delete Photoshop out of my grip pen preferences on the Tablet file, and I can only get a nicer stroke by using "All Others" the minute you add Photoshop back in for the Grip Pen - ugly stroke and shoelaces galore. That's not to say the shoelace problem goes away entirely.

    So Follow these steps and test it yourself to see the difference.
    ***BACK UP YOUR PREFERENCES IF YOU HAVE A LOT OF SHORTCUTS YOU DON'T WANT TO LOSE*** (just a note of caution)


    Open Up the Wacom Control Panel
    For Tool - Click on Your Pen. - Be it Grip Pen/Art Pen whatever.
    See if Photoshop is listed under the Application, if it is listed remove it
    Now, Adjust the Click Threshold to the right under "All Others"

    Now try to make a tapered stroke in Photoshop.
    Add Photoshop to your Grip Pen and watch the strokes turn back to round even if you haven't made any adjustments to the pen!

    Last edited by Arshes Nei; April 7th, 2012 at 05:30 PM.
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  15. #104
    @Arshes Nei
    I need to restart Photoshop if I am removing (or adding) Photoshop from the application specific settings of the grip pen while Photoshop is opened. Otherwise Photoshop is not able to read pressure and it is just drawing straight line also.
    But I am not sure you are talking about that.

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  16. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by hecartha View Post
    @Arshes Nei
    I need to restart Photoshop if I am removing (or adding) Photoshop from the application specific settings of the grip pen while Photoshop is opened. Otherwise Photoshop is not able to read pressure and it is just drawing straight line also.
    But I am not sure you are talking about that.
    I'm referring to the beginning of a stroke. "rounded strokes" Basically the shape dynamics are half working. The stroke starts of too round too strong regardless of pressure.



    To get a tapered stroke similar to Sai or Painter you need to delete the grip pen preferences set up for Photoshop. You then need to go to "All Others" in the Application Tab and move the click threshold to the right under Customize for the Grip Pen.

    Photoshop then delivers lines similar to Painter. However, if you add back in a preference for Photoshop watch the stroke quality degrade to what you had before.

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  17. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Ok, yep. I have to delete Photoshop out of my grip pen preferences on the Tablet file, and I can only get a nicer stroke by using "All Others" the minute you add Photoshop back in for the Grip Pen - ugly stroke and shoelaces galore. That's not to say the shoelace problem goes away entirely.

    CS6 beta is out so make the push now to get these corrections in photoshop 6 Erodable brushes sounds interesting. I just got my macworld today and there was a paragraph about them.

    http://www.macworld.com/article/1165...ent_aware.html

    Painting and Drawing
    Photoshop would not be Photoshop without fresh tools and streamlined methods of painting and drawing. New erodible brush tips are designed to wear down naturally. You can also use erodible tips (which wear down naturally) with the Brush tool, Pencil tool, Mixer Brush tool, and Eraser tool. A new Airbrush tip features a real physics engine to make airbrushing more realistic.

    www.findphil.com for a look at my older stuff
    www.facebook.com/vig.illustrationgraphics for recent stuff
    http://velikan.tumblr.com/ for the latest up-to-the-minute stuff, and process nonsense
    And finally, http://www.here-there-be-monsters.net/ is the place to be if you want to buy some of my work that has been kitted by the talented hand of Dave.
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  18. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    I'm referring to the beginning of a stroke. "rounded strokes" Basically the shape dynamics are half working. The stroke starts of too round too strong regardless of pressure.

    To get a tapered stroke similar to Sai or Painter you need to delete the grip pen preferences set up for Photoshop. You then need to go to "All Others" in the Application Tab and move the click threshold to the right under Customize for the Grip Pen.

    Photoshop then delivers lines similar to Painter. However, if you add back in a preference for Photoshop watch the stroke quality degrade to what you had before.
    That what I understood the first time so I tried again but I don't get the round stroke at the beginning.


    I tried also to edit the Wacom pressure curve but I just get the same kind of result.

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  19. #108
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    Hi Hecartha.

    You won't get the rounded stroke issue with an intuos3. It's the intuos4 and higher that have this issue. (Any Wacom that uses 2048 pressure levels)

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  20. #109
    Ah ok, I missed it was about intuos 4 and 5, my mistake

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  21. #110
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    I just installed CS6 and instantly got the shoelace stroke problem, both in CS6 AND CS5. I did not have it in CS5 before I installed CS6, and I am quite sure my pen isn't broken since I was drawing in CS5 minutes before I installed CS6 - then it popped up. Also I got an Intuos3 and Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit.

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  22. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by n3raz View Post
    I don't get it.

    Do i have this problem or not?
    Don't know as your link is not working.

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  23. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD M View Post
    I just installed CS6 and instantly got the shoelace stroke problem, both in CS6 AND CS5. I did not have it in CS5 before I installed CS6, and I am quite sure my pen isn't broken since I was drawing in CS5 minutes before I installed CS6 - then it popped up. Also I got an Intuos3 and Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit.
    Same here except with intuos 4.
    your pen is not broken, Also yeah just to clarify CS6 doesn't fix the problem.
    ...This bug is beyond me. Paint Tool SAI is my program of choice now... for laying down initial sketches, linework, and sometimes painting.
    I seriously reccomend Paint Tool SAI its is awesommmmeee!

    PM me for details on getting paint tool sai.

    Quote Originally Posted by n3raz View Post
    I don't get it.

    Do i have this problem or not?

    Running CS5, 10.7.3, Cintiq 24HD
    I do not think you have this problem.

    Your strokes look good, do you have smoothing turned on?
    also anymore specs? MAC? or PC?

    looks good though... it figures the thousand dollar tablet would solve the problem...

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  24. #113
    I have a Cintiq 24HD on Windows 7 and I get the shoelace effect in CS5.1.

    EDIT: I'm on Windows 8 Beta.

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  25. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielK View Post
    I have a Cintiq 24HD on Windows 7 and I get the shoelace effect in CS5.1.

    EDIT: I'm on Windows 8 Beta.
    hey sorry to hear that,

    yeah... i gave up on this problem but i thank, hecartha again, he really explains it well and thanks Arshes Nei.

    It is just something you "deal with" apparently.
    If its any consolation I've seen a lot of high quality artist tutorials lately and they ALL have the shoelace effect. ctrl+paint... Fheng Z ... some gnomon stuff, Daarken... I mean if they all deal with it.. what the hell... y'know?

    Or maybe thats a bad way to look at it... anyway... yeah, no solution so far i am aware of. If anything good comes up I'll send you guys all messages or w/e

    Cheers!

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  26. This bug makes me sad. I think I might sell my Intuos 4 and get one of those cheaper Monoprice tablets instead.

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  27. #116
    Happens in CS6 too.

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  28. #117
    this wasn't helping anyone.

    Last edited by Shahan; February 7th, 2013 at 02:53 PM.
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  29. #118
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    It's not going to help because it has been stated in this thread that it's a Windows issue.

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  30. #119
    There's an active discussion on the wacom forums about pressure problems (although I'm not sure it's shoelace specific): http://forum.wacom.eu/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9954

    GoldenAgeArt says:
    "I have been in contact with Wacom America on this issue for the last month or so. It is indeed a problem in Photoshop CS6. The engineers have confirmed this. Adobe IS working on patching this problem. However they release updates on a specific schedule, what that schedule is, I have no idea. I have not seen a new update yet. Maybe they do them quarterly? Also, the rep I spoke with at Wacom works very closely with the engineers and no one had called and reported this problem to his understanding."

    Could we recruit this guy to handle the shoelace problem as well?

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  31. #120
    Oh and by the way, Wacom support is linking from their forums to this thread when people report the shoelace effect. Haha

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