A different kind of "is this cheating?" thread...
Join the #1 Art Workshop - LevelUpJoin Premium Art Workshop

Results 1 to 25 of 25
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    13
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

    Talking A different kind of "is this cheating?" thread...

    Hello all, I've been visiting this forum for ages, but only now decided to make an account. And the reason I have decided to finally come into the discussion is a kind of odd debate I've been having with a classmate recently.

    Let's say for example, after drawing a head on the page, you want to make sure that the height of the figure is accurate. Knowing the human figure is 7.5 heads tall, using your thumb and index finger (or using your pencil and thumb) you just grab the measurement of the head you drew, and just plot out the 7.5 heads.

    Would using this method to measure things on the page be considered cheating? Perhaps lazy? A crutch?

    To me this seems like some form of cheating, since you aren't relying on your eyes to plot out the next lines, but you are instead just grabbing an exact measurement of the head, and just moving it over. To me, its just one step away from grabbing a ruler to measure the head, and using that to plot out the rest of the drawing.

    So we were just wondering what might be the consensus on here for this rather silly debate!

    EDIT: Maybe i should note, that this is in reference to drawing form a live model in Life drawing class.

    Last edited by ArtStudent08; February 28th, 2012 at 09:38 PM.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  2. #2
    Arshes Nei's Avatar
    Arshes Nei is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Torrance, CA
    Posts
    6,802
    Thanks
    2,278
    Thanked 4,259 Times in 2,074 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Yes. Rulers should be banned in art. The crazy person who made them should be burned at the stake. :/

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Arshes Nei For This Useful Post:


  4. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    13
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Yes. Rulers should be banned in art. The crazy person who made them should be burned at the stake. :/
    lol yes I get your point, but I guess I should have specified this is for observational drawing, as in life drawing class and drawing a Live model. Not really sure if that changes anything? just wondering what people thought.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    2,337
    Thanks
    1,074
    Thanked 2,199 Times in 1,055 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Using a pencil is cheating. You should just magically project everything straight from your mind onto the paper.

    OY.

    If that's "cheating", then so is pretty much the entire drawing process...

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  6. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to QueenGwenevere For This Useful Post:


  7. #5
    JeffX99's Avatar
    JeffX99 is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    5,234
    Thanks
    3,512
    Thanked 4,896 Times in 2,544 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    If you've been hanging around here you already know the answer. In case you missed it, there is no cheating in art. There are lame things one can do, gimmicks, shennanigans and chicanery, but no cheating.

    But yes, no crime in measuring out as accurately as you need, though that shouldn't involve rulers for this kind of thing. Also remember that only 1 in 17,485 people are actually 7.5 heads tall. And they're Greek.

    What would Caravaggio do?
    _________________________

    Portfolio
    Plein Air
    Digital
    Still Life
    Sight Measuring
    Fundamentals
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  8. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to JeffX99 For This Useful Post:


  9. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    13
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post
    Using a pencil is cheating. You should just magically project everything straight from your mind onto the paper.

    OY.

    If that's "cheating", then so is pretty much the entire drawing process...
    Well measuring is obviously incredibly vital to making sure the drawing of the figure has proper proportions.

    What I'm just wondering, is the fact that you arent plotting the 7.5 heads, or any other measurement, by comparing sizes using your eyes.

    So instead of relying on your eyes to plot out the next line, feeling out where 2 heads down would be for example, you are just grabbing the measurement of head with ur hand, and just moving it over. If nothing else, just seems rather lazy.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  10. #7
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    3,168
    Thanks
    751
    Thanked 2,343 Times in 1,208 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ArtStudent08 View Post
    Let's say for example, after drawing a head on the page, you want to make sure that the height of the figure is accurate. Knowing the human figure is 7.5 heads tall, using your thumb and index finger (or using your pencil and thumb) you just grab the measurement of the head you drew, and just plot out the 7.5 heads.

    Would using this method to measure things on the page be considered cheating? Perhaps lazy? A crutch?
    It would probably be wrong because you're assuming the human figure is 7.5 heads tall. It's much better to measure the entire figure with your pencil and checking the proportions against your pencil so you're measuring what you actually see and not making shit up.

    Like what are you going to do if you have to draw a bent or foreshortened pose you can't divide neatly into heads? Several of those occur in every life drawing session I've been to. So if you have to learn better measuring methods to deal with those why wouldn't you just use them for everything? And there are all kinds of people who are not 7.5 heads tall, are you going to learn head-length formulas for every age of child and shrunken old ladies and stuff?

    I wouldn't even call this lazy, I'd call it complicating your life for no good reason.

    *** Sketchbook * Landscapes * Portfolio * Store***

    "There are two kinds of students: the self-taught and the hopeless."
    - Dr. Piotr Rudnicki
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  11. #8
    Elwell's Avatar
    Elwell is offline Sticks Like Grim Death Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,212
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,666 Times in 5,020 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    ohgoodlord

    DO WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT. STOP MAKING YOUR LIFE MORE COMPLICATED THAN IT HAS TO BE. DRAW. TRY A LOT OF STUFF. SEE WHAT WORKS.

    Am I shouting? Yes, I'm shouting. But it's only because I can't reach through the screen and whack you upside the head.

    Last edited by Elwell; February 28th, 2012 at 09:56 PM.

    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  12. The Following 18 Users Say Thank You to Elwell For This Useful Post:

    + Show/Hide list of the thanked


  13. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    13
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by vineris View Post
    It would probably be wrong because you're assuming the human figure is 7.5 heads tall. It's much better to measure the entire figure with your pencil and checking the proportions against your pencil so you're measuring what you actually see and not making shit up.

    Like what are you going to do if you have to draw a bent or foreshortened pose you can't divide neatly into heads? Several of those occur in every life drawing session I've been to. So if you have to learn better measuring methods to deal with those why wouldn't you just use them for everything? And there are all kinds of people who are not 7.5 heads tall, are you going to learn head-length formulas for every age of child and shrunken old ladies and stuff?

    I wouldn't even call this lazy, I'd call it complicating your life for no good reason.
    The whole drawing a figure 7.5 heads tall was just an example. It could anything like, maybe you needed to draw an elbow that was 3 heads away from the chin on a foreshortened pose.

    My whole point was, instead of feeling out where 3 heads away would be with your eyes. You are just lazily grabbing the measurement of a head with your fingers and moving it over.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  14. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    13
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    ohgoodlord

    DO WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT. STOP MAKING YOUR LIFE MORE COMPLICATED THAN IT HAS TO BE. DRAW. TRY A LOT OF STUFF. SEE WHAT WORKS.

    Am I shouting? Yes, I'm shouting. But it's only because I can't reach through the screen and whack you upside the head.
    Haha okay fair enough. The whole reason this was even a debate, was because the artwork in this case was going to be submitted as entrance exams to Colleges, where "cheating" or using "shortcuts" might undermine the whole assessment process of them looking for "skilled" artists.

    But so far it seems like this is entirely a non-issue heh.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  15. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    2,337
    Thanks
    1,074
    Thanked 2,199 Times in 1,055 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    The only things colleges care about in assessing portfolios are...

    1. Does it look like you have the potential to learn to draw...

    and -

    2. Did you draw everything in your portfolio yourself?

    The only "cheating" that would count against you is if you, say, went and traced someone else's portfolio.

    They do NOT deduct points for using rulers, sight measuring, using the wrong grip, using the wrong materials, sitting down while you draw, or any other silly little thing someone somewhere told you not to do. They're looking at the results that you present to them, and that's all they care about.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to QueenGwenevere For This Useful Post:


  17. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    481
    Thanks
    539
    Thanked 395 Times in 174 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    So instead of relying on your eyes to plot out the next line, feeling out where 2 heads down would be for example, you are just grabbing the measurement of head with ur hand, and just moving it over. If nothing else, just seems rather lazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by ArtStudent08 View Post
    The whole drawing a figure 7.5 heads tall was just an example. It could anything like, maybe you needed to draw an elbow that was 3 heads away from the chin on a foreshortened pose.

    My whole point was, instead of feeling out where 3 heads away would be with your eyes. You are just lazily grabbing the measurement of a head with your fingers and moving it over.
    Not measuring is lazy.

    Last edited by jpacer; February 28th, 2012 at 10:49 PM.
    "Contrary to the belief of the layman, the essential of art is not to imitate nature, but under the guise of imitation to stir up excitement with pure plastic elements: measurements, directions, ornaments, lights, values, colors, substances, divided and organized according to the injunctions of natural laws. While so occupied, the artist never ceases to be subservient to nature, but instead of imitating the incidents in a paltry way, he imitates the laws."-Andre Lhote

    Web, FineArt, Sketchbook
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  18. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to jpacer For This Useful Post:


  19. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    1,148
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 400 Times in 274 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Using thumbs and index fingers is generally considered a cheat, if you keep using them you might as well have them surgically removed...

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to eezacque@xs4all.nl For This Useful Post:


  21. #14
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    New York, NY, USA 10002
    Posts
    883
    Thanks
    800
    Thanked 305 Times in 212 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Well, you could learn to perceive the spatial and angle relations between points and parts rather than measuring them. You can get better at it with practice. I don't measure when I draw, except when forced by my teachers. Measuring becomes even less important the more likely your subject is to move.

    One technique many people use to avoid measuring is to see shapes. This is more effective if you interpret these shapes as animals. This is because you recognize familiar shapes easier in your head even when you are not looking at the subject.

    Not measuring involves more trial and error, and people tend to learn more from trial and error than from getting answers from measurements, because trial and error involves mistakes. Of course you might need to measure or get critique to expose these mistakes.

    And remember, you can't measure a subject when drawing from imagination.

    Last edited by Vay; February 28th, 2012 at 11:18 PM.
    My Sketchbook

    Twinkle, twinkle little star
    I don't wonder what you are
    For by spectroscopic ken
    I know that you are hydrogen - Ian D.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  22. #15
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    3,168
    Thanks
    751
    Thanked 2,343 Times in 1,208 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ArtStudent08 View Post
    The whole reason this was even a debate, was because the artwork in this case was going to be submitted as entrance exams to Colleges, where "cheating" or using "shortcuts" might undermine the whole assessment process of them looking for "skilled" artists.

    But so far it seems like this is entirely a non-issue heh.
    Considering that one of the first things you learn in an art fundamentals class is how to measure things with your pencil... yeah. It's a non-issue. They don't care whether you own any rulers either. In fact they often make you buy one.

    Besides, if there's any rules for the entrance exam they'll just tell you. If there's no rules then why would anything be "cheating"? What would it be cheating against?

    *** Sketchbook * Landscapes * Portfolio * Store***

    "There are two kinds of students: the self-taught and the hopeless."
    - Dr. Piotr Rudnicki
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  23. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    120
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 33 Times in 20 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Sighting as a technique (with an instrument) itself can be developed. I dont know why some people see it as a magical and quick'n easy method of getting proportions and angles. Or like training wheels on a bicycle.
    I've been using sighting for a while and I'm still learning more about it.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  24. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    2,081
    Thanks
    323
    Thanked 968 Times in 519 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ArtStudent08 View Post
    Haha okay fair enough. The whole reason this was even a debate, was because the artwork in this case was going to be submitted as entrance exams to Colleges, where "cheating" or using "shortcuts" might undermine the whole assessment process of them looking for "skilled" artists.

    But so far it seems like this is entirely a non-issue heh.
    In this case the artist who "cheated" proved himself to be a "skilled artist". Seriously, if using your knowledge of human proportions is "cheating" what would be next? No studying of anatomy, because that gives you an unfair advantage; you should be using observation only?

    The only "cheating" in art that I can think of, is don't pass someone else's work off as your own. For an entrance requirement they may also mean don't trace from a photo (which would likely be easy to see by an experienced artist).

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  25. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    13
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by J Wilson View Post
    In this case the artist who "cheated" proved himself to be a "skilled artist". Seriously, if using your knowledge of human proportions is "cheating" what would be next? No studying of anatomy, because that gives you an unfair advantage; you should be using observation only?

    The only "cheating" in art that I can think of, is don't pass someone else's work off as your own. For an entrance requirement they may also mean don't trace from a photo (which would likely be easy to see by an experienced artist).
    Ofcourse it isnt up for debate that using your knowledge of human proportions isnt cheating. The only thing that I was referring too, was specifically grabbing a measurement on your drawing with your hand, moving it over to the spot you wanted, and then placing the marks. Instead of looking at your drawing, seeing that you need the marks to be 2 heads down for example, visualizing where 2 heads down would be, then placing those marks.

    But this thread is clearly irrelevant at this point heh. I think most people agree that if anything, it takes skill to know that the mark you need to put down is 2 heads down, instead of how you find where 2 heads down on your drawing is.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  26. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    551
    Thanks
    72
    Thanked 228 Times in 148 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    So far 4 out of 12 responses to the OPs question were 'smartass-OMG-what-a-stupid-
    question' remarks. If you don't like answering your "majesties" don't. Everyone is all high
    and tall all the time about how one should ASK, and when people actually do, you either
    say "use Search, it works" or go on dong this crap. What confidence builders you are.

    @ArtStudent08: It isn't cheating, it's a method of measuring as some of the more helpful
    members have already stated. Even if you wanted to draw a whole figure, you would
    most likely roughly draw the general mass of the head, and then "multiply" the length of
    the body by another 6.5 units.

    In truth, most of the studies one does are done in a similar way. You draw a vase, you
    measure it's length in proportion to it's width or use a small clear unit and count the
    times the unit fits in the width, the height, whatever you need to measure. That's how
    it's been "noticed" that the generic proportion of the average human is 7.5 heads (I don't
    think they are all Greek Jeff )

    As for using the eye to get the proportions and angles down, it's a skill you train, and a
    way to do that is by using the measurement method. As you get more experienced you
    will be able to do it easier but you will still be using your pencil and thumb to confirm your
    measurement or angle, from time to time.

    "Don't judge a book by it's cover" Frank Frazetta 1928-2010
    RIP Frank.

    DA gallery http://michaelsyrigos.deviantart.com/gallery/

    CA Sketchbook http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=131601
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  27. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Line For This Useful Post:


  28. #20
    Anid Maro's Avatar
    Anid Maro is offline Psychotic Eldritch Zeppelin Level 9 Gladiator: Hoplomachi
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    1,378
    Thanks
    669
    Thanked 537 Times in 295 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    It may or may not be more skillful, but drawing nor painting are performance arts so it doesn't matter.

    Stop fetishizing 'skills' that have nothing to do with your end product. This is like berating a mathematician for using a calculator rather than doing all the math in his head, whether or not he uses a calculator isn't the point of what he's doing!

    -My work can be found at my local directory thread.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  29. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Anid Maro For This Useful Post:


  30. #21
    Arshes Nei's Avatar
    Arshes Nei is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Torrance, CA
    Posts
    6,802
    Thanks
    2,278
    Thanked 4,259 Times in 2,074 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ArtStudent08 View Post
    Ofcourse it isnt up for debate that using your knowledge of human proportions isnt cheating. The only thing that I was referring too, was specifically grabbing a measurement on your drawing with your hand, moving it over to the spot you wanted, and then placing the marks. Instead of looking at your drawing, seeing that you need the marks to be 2 heads down for example, visualizing where 2 heads down would be, then placing those marks.

    But this thread is clearly irrelevant at this point heh. I think most people agree that if anything, it takes skill to know that the mark you need to put down is 2 heads down, instead of how you find where 2 heads down on your drawing is.
    See the reason for the sarcasm is that people new to art have this really romanticized view of art. If you're going to do art, it has to be "completely original, no reference, completely out of your head and you can only use certain tools or it's cheating"

    Because somehow the process matters more than the result. Sorry, but go read Art & Fear and you'll read:

    To the artist, the process matters the most, and the viewer (even if it's another artist) the end result of the piece you worked on matters most.


    When you draw more and more this becomes less relevant. You'll start understanding how to do things and you may have less need for certain tools or a need for others depending on what you need to get done.

    The ruler is a tool. The times I've used a ruler is mostly for drawing, if it's for drawing a straight line or creating a grid when I need to reproduce a piece at a different size and transfer it. There's also when doing things in perspective. The other time I've used a ruler is to measure something, but I don't use it often unless I'm decorating my dwelling or I need to make sure something fits in a package. You get the idea. Gone are the days I needed a ruler to measure how many miles it is to get to a certain area. We got Google and GPS for that

    So anyways, you're learning. If a ruler helps, great. If not, don't (unless the instructor tells you to). Either way, you got lots of mistakes and trial and error ahead for you either way.

    Last edited by Arshes Nei; February 29th, 2012 at 11:45 AM. Reason: correcting some grammah hammah
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  31. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Arshes Nei For This Useful Post:


  32. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Sussex
    Posts
    2,548
    Thanks
    102
    Thanked 1,477 Times in 731 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Back in the day, people memorized dozens of little rules to help them quickly lay in the figure. My mother had some training in portrait painting, and she was a font of "the distance between the pupils is the length of an eye" sorts of mnemonics.

    I'm sure there are people who are madly creative from beginning to end of the picture making process, but me...I'm all creative in the thumbnail stage, and then there's a long bunch of painful grunt work where I try to turn the thumbnail into a decent under-drawing by any means necessary, then I'm all awesome and creative again when I sit down to paint.

    I was once on the receiving end of a critique so savagely nasty, I marched straight out of class to the office and changed my major (sketchbook).
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  33. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    399
    Thanks
    217
    Thanked 178 Times in 83 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    So high school, eh? Much ado about nothing.


    You'll probably look back at this later and go : 'What the hell was I thinking?!'

    My Self-Portraits

    "Work for your self first. You can paint best the things you like or the things you hate. You cannot paint well when indifferent.
    Express a mental opinion about something you are sensitive to in life around you. There is a profound difference between sensitivity and sentimentality."

    ~ John Sloan Gist of Art
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  34. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    717
    Thanks
    932
    Thanked 291 Times in 208 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    ohgoodlord

    DO WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT. STOP MAKING YOUR LIFE MORE COMPLICATED THAN IT HAS TO BE. DRAW. TRY A LOT OF STUFF. SEE WHAT WORKS.

    Am I shouting? Yes, I'm shouting. But it's only because I can't reach through the screen and whack you upside the head.
    Man I'd love to see you at the computer!

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  35. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Washington (state), USA
    Posts
    461
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 143 Times in 127 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by jpacer View Post
    Not measuring is lazy.
    100% agree!

    Damn, I wrote a big long response, but it got DELETED! Stupid IE

    Anyway, I was going to say basically that, while it is a little lazy for your friend to use general guidelines to plot out the measurements of the pose instead of actually sight measuring each individual model's unique proportions, it is even lazier to write off sight measuring completely, even if you have such a compelling excuse as "but it feels like cheating to me!" It's not cheating, it's long hard work that will make you better at seeing accurately. Just eyeballing it, before you are a master figure artist, isn't going to cut it. You need to train yourself to see accurate spacial relationships, and you really won't know if you're doing it right or not unless you use your pencil/thumb/forefinger/whatever appendage you like to measure angles and proportions.

    Remember, sight measuring is another skill - you won't be good or fast at it right off the bat. And they are more than likely going to encourage it at art school, so there's no reason to put off implementing it in your work.

    Also, you can still "eyeball" when you are doing quick gesture poses and sketching from life in public - all different practices and excercises will help you improve.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

Members who have read this thread: 0

There are no members to list at the moment.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •