Salvador Larroca (Iron man artist) caught in blatant tracing. - Page 2

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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    I could be wrong Koji, but that looks like a photoshoot of models set up by the artist to provide them with the necessary reference? If so, that's a significantly different thing than grabbing someone's photo of the net and tracing it.
    No need to convince me dude. I'm not the one calling out pros who trace.

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  3. #32
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    mmm,.. I'm very shocked that this kind of practice would be going on at all... what a scam if it is!!

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  4. #33
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    Dusty wasn't calling out tracers, either. He was calling out tracers-of-other-people's-stuff.

    I saw a book in a remainder bin once. I recognized every single one of the drawings in it as a (bad) trace of a dozen images from the first five pages of a Google images search of "weasel". I kind of wish I'd bought it. It was awesome in its brazenness.

    I was once on the receiving end of a critique so savagely nasty, I marched straight out of class to the office and changed my major (sketchbook).
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  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoat View Post
    Dusty wasn't calling out tracers, either. He was calling out tracers-of-other-people's-stuff.
    This.
    And thank you.

    Btw, I may not be a professional sequential artist, but I am a professional artist. For about 12 years actually (video game and music industry).

    So I will certainly call people out if I think they are doing shadey things. His status as a professional means exactly zero to me.

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  8. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji Bryant View Post
    No need to convince me dude. I'm not the one calling out pros who trace.
    That's cool - was just pointing out your example doesn't really apply. Traced from their own photos or not, that working process is completely acceptable of course.

    Last edited by JeffX99; February 25th, 2012 at 04:19 PM.
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  9. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by polybuilder View Post
    mmm,.. I'm very shocked that this kind of practice would be going on at all... what a scam if it is!!
    It's a scam for the uniniatiated but a respected production technique amongst a lot of pros.

    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=23978

    Oh yeah, before anybody sez he modeled his own 3d refs so his tracing is somehow not-tracing please note other artists just get models from Google sketchup warehouse all the time.

    But yeah, like I say...whatever works for you. If you make deadlines without refs or tracing, good job for preserving your "integrity".

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  10. #37
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    I'm beginning to think you're willfully missing the point now, Koji.

    I was once on the receiving end of a critique so savagely nasty, I marched straight out of class to the office and changed my major (sketchbook).
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  11. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji Bryant View Post
    It's a scam for the uniniatiated but a respected production technique amongst a lot of pros.

    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=23978

    Oh yeah, before anybody sez he modeled his own 3d refs so his tracing is somehow not-tracing please note other artists just get models from Google sketchup warehouse all the time.
    Well, the 3D models are also actually his work (so he isn't just nabbing someone elses work). And judging from that interview, he also has other reasons to use renders, not just deadlines.

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  12. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoat View Post
    I'm beginning to think you're willfully missing the point now, Koji.
    LOL

    I've been tracing since I started posting in this thread for my current feature length storyboarding project (1000+ hand drawn images!)

    I used to be a vocal asshole on the Greg Land trace hate bandwagon. But once you're actually in their shoes....with the expectations, deadlines, thousand of dollars client has paid you upfront...you gotta decide if this level of commercial art is for you.

    I've decided YES. And along with that I'm tracing for many of my backgrounds (google, flickr, 3d, youtube screengrab) so I can meet my milestones. I'm aware of the tricks to hide tracing (line weight, flipping, etc.) but for this project my client doesn't give a shit (I've shown roughs with low opacity background googled photos). So I'm happily dead lining all my tracework.

    Good luck if you can find my google sources cuz I composite multiple pics into one.

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  13. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji Bryant View Post
    Good luck if you can find my google sources cuz I composite multiple pics into one.
    Well, that would require us to actually see your art somewhere...

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  14. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji Bryant View Post
    a respected production technique amongst a lot of pros.
    ... now I'm really shocked... and also now initiated... how could you be a pro if you were doing this... I can not see it... personally I would use references to "practice/progress my skills... but not trace them and make money from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TinyBird View Post
    Well, that would require us to actually see your art somewhere...
    Sure. Wait for my $57 training video.

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  16. #43
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    Storyboarding is internal use, too.
    When I worked at Monolith, we'd make 'concept art' for environments so that we could quickly generate what a "ruined city" would look like. We would take some rubble pictures, add some fog/atmospheric effects, and cut-paste one of the concept artist's characters into the file so the Art Director could see what we wanted to create in 3D. It was used strictly to show the AD, never to be put out for the public to purchase.

    I don't really have a problem with that at all.

    When you are making a product to be sold to a consumer, I think you should make sure that all of the material within is your own. Taking your own pictures for reference is not something I am opposed to. Google-tracing? Well, I've already explained why I disagree with that method.

    I'm well aware we won't be agreeing on this anytime soon, but I did want to clarify my point there.

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  18. #44
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    Excellent point Dusty.

    Here's the thing about making excuses for this "process"...either get good enough to handle the deadlines with some artistic integrity or find another line of work. Sequential art/comics is not the only art discipline that has tough deadlines or demands. The gallery market has its own set of challenges, illustration a different set, animation has yet another. Does this mean people in those areas don't "cheat"...of course not. But when they do they should be righteously reamed for it...not just excused with a "do whatever it takes" justification.

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    I'm not over keen on his stuff in any case.
    I understand the need for tracing sometimes, but IMO it just shows that he's lost passion for the job. Surely there's some pride in seeing someone buy the comic book you created and going:
    "YEAH! all that in there? My. Original. Work."
    There's nothing to feel once you've traced a photo (which admittedly is better that tracing someone else's work), because you've put very little creative talent into it. If he really is just doing it to save time, then fine, but it saps the soul out of the comic, I couldn't enjoy the artwork once I realised the artist was capable of tracing, I would always be thinking "is that traced?"
    I believe in work that is 100% your own, I even hate using refs, but realise I have to if I want to get better.

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  20. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Here's the thing about making excuses for this "process"...either get good enough to handle the deadlines with some artistic integrity or find another line of work..
    Drew Struzan traces, and the argument he makes for it is the same one that you're calling an excuse: he's working on a deadline to provide a commercial product, and tracing helps him create better work, faster.

    It seems to me that part of being a professional isn't just having pride, but also knowing when to put it aside for the sake of the job.

    Struzan is one of the finest draftsmen alive, imo. Certainly he's a success in every sense of the word. If he finds it advantageous to include tracing in his repertoire of tools, I don't think the argument that 'tracers should find an easier line of work' stands up.

    The photos he's tracing are provided by his client rather than Google, though, for whatever difference that makes.

    Last edited by jcpahl; February 25th, 2012 at 08:15 PM.
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  22. #47
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    Look at those X-women smiling!

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  24. #48
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    So the only thing that is important is making sure the client gets a good image?

    Well, Noah Bradley is much better at painting environments than me. So I suppose from now on*, I'll just use the stamp tool on all of his works and into my own because my stuff will look WAY better if I do that.
    Hey, if the client is happy...isn't that all that matters?

    The photos he's tracing are provided by his client rather than Google, though, for whatever difference that makes.
    I think that makes a BIG difference.


    * - Not actually.

    Last edited by Dusty; February 25th, 2012 at 08:36 PM.
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  26. #49
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    Well, ideally, you don't want your client to get sued.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcpahl View Post
    Drew Struzan traces...
    Just had a little visit to his website... sells his work for quite a penny... I wonder how much of the "stuff" he has on there is traced... hmmm..

    ... and anyway... the world is ripe with scams and cheats today... so... it's the last word I'll have to say on the matter... enjoy the arguement... I'm off to find my tracing paper.. I mean..............


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  30. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcpahl View Post
    Well, ideally, you don't want your client to get sued.
    Exactly. Respecting copyrights (of all things...illustration, photography, etc) should be of the utmost importance.

    Is anyone really going to argue against that?

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  32. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by polybuilder View Post
    Just had a little visit to his website... sells his work for quite a penny... I wonder how much of the "stuff" he has on there is traced... hmmm..

    ... and anyway... the world is ripe with scams and cheats today... so... it's the last word I'll have to say on the matter... enjoy the arguement... I'm off to find my tracing paper.. I mean..............


    James
    He did quite a bit, he was in huge demand for movie posters. The clients willingly provided him the material to trace from and they knew it too. So obviously they're not bothered by it considering it was their material to provide and for him to do with to get the job done.

    While everyone mentions the Star Wars/Indiana Jones posters, I still love the "Coming to America" one

    Again, tracing in itself is not the problem, tracing things you don't legally own is the problem.

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  34. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post

    ". . . . I'm telling you, yes, integrity does have monetary value (you seemed to be suggesting it doesn't). . . ."
    OK. . . . .

    How much would you sell your integrity for?

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    Salvador Larroca (Iron man artist) caught in blatant tracing.

    This is ugly stuff regardless of how it was made.

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  37. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotime View Post
    Salvador Larroca (Iron man artist) caught in blatant tracing.

    This is ugly stuff regardless of how it was made.
    I guess he's 'sposed to be angry-- but it looks more like he's in pain from having a heart attack.

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  39. #56
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    Hmmm. Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand, I dislike the idea of it (tracing, as opposed to referencing) on the other hand, the artist still has to be somewhat competent to pull off a tracing and have it look good. Tracing also doesn't mean the artist will understand composition, storytelling, and all sorts of other things that make an image (or series of images) successful.

    Of course I don't know why some comics push towards realism either, but that's more of a personal thing.

    As for the specific incidence being pointed out... For some reason I find the idea of that kid's image being traced into a comic book without the family knowing about it a tad...creepy?

    Last edited by Alice Herring; February 26th, 2012 at 02:51 AM. Reason: not all comics are pushing towards realism! :)
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  41. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    ROFL....
    I usually get paid extra for not selling it. Clients in various businesses tend to pay extra when they know they can count on a consultant to give them work/product with high confidence it will not get them in legal trouble.

    In art, I gather one of the main concerns is copyright, in other types of businesses, concerns vary. When I was doing engineering, we had to offer a piece of mind that the work didn't have so many corners cut to it that there's a high risk of a building or a bridge falling down in a few years and killing scores of people. Yes, it can take longer to cut fewer corners, and you have clients breathing down your neck constantly to produce faster and better... and often they will go to other people who will give them less expensive and *cheaper* product. Sometimes they get burned by it, other times they get lucky, and they don't.

    Whatever I do, I don't sell myself so cheap that I have to compromise the integrity of my work.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that tracing from a photo in itself in compromise in integrity. My reaction seems to be similar to most of the people in the thread, which is concern about whether the photo copyright was violated or not, considering it appears to be a randomly googled image. If they had rights to use in a manner it was used, I would think that part of being a pro in one's field is knowing which corners can be cut without compromising integrity of their work.
    In Engineering, I'm a professional, so I can judge that one. In arts, even though I get paid for producing a few things, I don't consider myself a professional yet, so I can't judge it at the same level. I can see how lay people could have a disillusioned reaction to OMG, this was traced, as opposed to drawn from life or imagination, but I have no idea what normal acceptable business practice in the arena of comic books is.

    What I do see in arts so far, that even though you don't face the worry about loss of life because of your product on daily basis, integrity of your work still has value. Hopefully as years go by and I become a seasoned art professional, I won't lose that perception. My general objection was to the suggestion that integrity in work has no value, so in order to make a buck, one has to do whatever it takes.

    In engineering, I've never experienced shortage of pay, that would make me have to consider compromising integrity of my work. Yes, there were tons of people who claimed they had to, and would take whatever job comes their way. They always made me think of those proverbial 'ambulance chaser' lawyers. Maintaining standards, always brought me good and lucrative clients, and actually allowed me to do less work for better pay. Like I said, hopefully, switching to arts I won's have to compromise that as I become a pro.



    you can't afford it
    But, it shouldn't be a matter of "you want some integrity with that? It'll cost ya!"

    My argument would be that buildings that don't fall down and kill people or artwork made for another that doesn't blatantly violate established copyright law are just implied expectations of "good faith and fair dealing" in business.

    But, then, as in so many of these discussions, it's necessary to arrive at accurate terms. I think you may be mixing up "not committing fraud" with concepts such as "quality" or "workmanship."

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    Does the average Joe care about originality, though? Seems like it's the opposite--especially as a an industry grows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew B View Post
    Does the average Joe care about originality, though? Seems like it's the opposite--especially as a an industry grows.
    "Culuture walks, but art stays sitting over the fireplace".

    So, no, they don't. And most don't even seem to care. But this subject seems to be a minefield due to the difference between using a Ref and tracing, tracing something you own/don't own (legally), being commissioned to trace, how unethical it is, unlimited rice pudding. For that I fear there may not be any closure to the subject proper.

    In the end it all seems to vary from person to person. And everyone loves multiple choice morals.

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    Conniekat8,

    Still, even barring outright fraud, the ability to perform and the execution of competent work would seem to be inherently implied in a given contract.

    One would hope that engineers that produce collapsing buildings and artists that steal copyrighted work would be brought down quickly by the criminal and civil legal systems-- regardless of whether for intentional or negligent conduct.

    So, to restate, "not committing fraud" AND "not performing negligent work" would still be different than "safe and/or legal work of marginal quality or shabby workmanship."

    The "integrity" you seem to be speaking of is not charging top dollar rates for (supposedly) top-tier work then pocketing the difference "earned" through, say, something like half-assed shortcuts and/or use of non-OEM parts.

    So, I think we're pretty close on that, and I'm just yammering on. . .

    So, then, if tracing gets the job done to the client's satisfaction, the copy's legal, and the client's not getting billed at freehand rates-- seems-- "no harm, no foul!"

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